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[criggs]

As I understand, JRiver makes an audio driver that one can designate as the default Windows 7 audio device.  This driver can bypass the re-processing/re-sampling/garbage-adding Windows 7 processor. 

I'm having an awful experience tonight listening on my Windows 7 computer to the Sirius audio webcast of tonight's Metropolitan Opera performance of Norma.  It sounds awful, sibilant, bassy, etc.  (Yes, I've defeated all enhancements, I've enabled exclusive application control, etc.etc.  It just is what it is, and that is is awful.)

Tonight is a lost cause, but after about three hours of googling, I've come across a few tantalizing references to the fact that J River has a driver one can install which bypasses the awful Windows 7 processor (by the way, I'm really cleaning up my language here!).  I've seen it variously referred to as a WDM driver, an ASIO driver, a WASAPI driver, etc. etc.

The specific situation here is that the Sirius audio signal is played through a web page.  So regular ordinary vanilla browser audio playback must play back through this J River driver.

I've found the following quotations while googling, which sound promising:

1:  "the current version of JRiver Media Center now includes a WDM audio driver that re-route the system audio and send it through JRiver Media Center for processing and playback."
2:  "You can use the WASAPI loopback in JRiver to route all sound through it."

Unfortunately, those quotes were surrounded by really advanced technical talk that was completely over my head.

So can anyone give me a step-by-step set of instructions on how I can configure my Windows 7 computer so that audio playing back through a browser will play back straight through (hope you understand what I mean by that), without being waylaid and re-processed by the gosh-darn Windows 7 audio processor. 

Thank you very much, in advance, for any help.

[JimH]

Welcome to the forum.  The source may be the problem in this case, but here's how to enable the WDM driver:

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/WDM_Driver

[DJLegba]

I'm sorry to say this but the problem is with your source. The Sirius signal is probably about 48kbps, heavily compressed. It's worthwhile setting up the WDM driver to use with other sources, but I'll be very surprised if you are ever able to talk about the Sirius experience without deleting expletives.

[blgentry]

I agree.  I used to really like the Sirius content itself; the variety of entertaining stuff.  But the sound quality...  UGggggghhhh.  It was SO BAD on most stations.  Surprisingly Howard Stern forced them to increase the bitrate on his channel *and* make it stereo; it was originally mono as "it's just talk".  But he has musical guests frequently enough to want stereo.

I haven't listened to Sirius in years, so my information might be dated.  I definitely remember very easy to hear digital artifacting.

Brian.

[criggs]

Welcome to the forum.  The source may be the problem in this case, but here's how to enable the WDM driver:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/WDM_Driver

Wow!  Thank you!

In reviewing the instructions, my first question is as follows.  After enabling WDM, restarting MC, and then designating MC as my default Windows device, can I then close the MC ap?  Will the WDM driver remain the default unless and until I choose to change it?  Or will it shut off if I close MC?

Here's what I'm getting at. I want to be able to pull up any old audio or audio video site in my browser and be listening to the original, rather than the garbage version from the extra-step Windows audio processor; that's all.  And the reason I'm a little concerned/confused about this is that the instructions to which you referred me appear to imply that MC must still assign the audio output to some physical audio reproduction device of some sort.  I have no outboard audio device, like an external sound card or anything like that.  All I do is hook up the output of my laptop through HDMI to my entertainiment system, in order to take advantage of a good pair of stereo speakers and a good HD monitor. 

So I guess my question is whether, with MC, I have to have a physical outboard device, like a sound card or something like that, to which MC routs the output of the WDM driver?  And if yes, does that not mean I'm going to have to stop using HDMI, and will probably have to rig up a two-road path, with the video hitting my TV from my computer's graphic output and the audio hitting my entertainment system from this new sound card I may have to buy?

All of this is unnecessary if the WDM driver can remain the default Windows device, once so assigned, even if MC is closed.  That's what I'm hoping is the case, but the instructions would seem to open the door to the opposite. 

Thank you again very much for the help and the info; much appreciated!

[criggs]

I'm sorry to say this but the problem is with your source. The Sirius signal is probably about 48kbps, heavily compressed. It's worthwhile setting up the WDM driver to use with other sources, but I'll be very surprised if you are ever able to talk about the Sirius experience without deleting expletives.

I'm very happy to say that that is no longer the case.  Sirius upgraded their online stream to dynamically uncompressed 256k AAC several months ago.  On a Windows XP box, which does NOT force its audio processor in between the stream and the digital output to an external sound card or capture ap or whatever, it sounds totally awesome now. 

Sirius has also just provided the Metropolitan Opera with a stream with slightly inferior specs, 128k AAC, for its free webcasts as well, and that stream also has rather awesome sound.  If you're ever curious about this, and you don't have a Sirius online subscription, check out the Met's free stream.  Its web page does not work on a Windows XP box, but its direct audio link, which is available on the OperaCast web site (on the Opera Stations page), works fine on Windows XP; in the resource-challenged Windows XP environment, I recommend a low-resource modern player like Media Player Classic HC to play that stream.  In case you'd like to put it through its paces, the Met's next free webcast will be next Tuesday at 725PM Eastern, with Zauberflote.  Enjoy!

[JimH]

The HDMI out is the output device in your case.

On the wiki, you could also read about Media Server.  It or MC must be running for the WDM driver to work.

[criggs]

I agree...But the sound quality...  UGggggghhhh.  It was SO BAD on most stations...I haven't listened to Sirius in years, so my information might be dated.  I definitely remember very easy to hear digital artifacting.

There was; it was horrible.  They were using a slow-speed Windows Media Player codec, and it was simply terrible, not to mention that it had also been implemented with horrendous dynamic compression.

Fortunately that's all in the past.  They now have an excellent dynamically uncompressed AAC stream which sounds fine (unless one is contending with expletive-deleted Windows 7 audio processors that insist on putting in their oar).

[criggs]

The HDMI out is the output device in your case. On the wiki, you could also read about Media Server.  It or MC must be running for the WDM driver to work.

Sounds good!  I'll try it in a day or so.  Thanks again.

What happens if I don't have my HDMI switcher switched to that laptop but to one of my other HDMI devices (like Fire TV or whatever)?  My Windows 7 laptop then pumps audio output to my internal speakers and/or my headphone outs.  What will I then be getting on those outputs?  Will I be getting the output of the WDM driver, as long as MC is active and Windows configured to the WDM as the default? 

[blgentry]

There was; it was horrible.  They were using a slow-speed Windows Media Player codec, and it was simply terrible, not to mention that it had also been implemented with horrendous dynamic compression.

When I had Sirius radio, I listened to a real Sirius radio, not an Internet stream.  I'm not sure if the compression is/was different or not.

Brian.

[criggs]

The HDMI out is the output device in your case.

Here’s what I wanted:  I wanted a way to listen to web sources of audio without having it dragged through the resampling/reprocessing/garbage-adding re-processing of the Windows audio processor, rather like it used to be in the golden days of Windows XP.  I was told the JRiver WDM driver would accomplish that.

I installed JRiver Media Center, installed the JM River Media Center WDM driver, and then made that driver the default sound device to be used by all Windows aps, whether players or browsers or whatever.  I went into the Media Center and could route the output to my internal Realtek High Definition Audio [WASAPI] or to my external audio output device which was connected to the laptop's HDMI output, a Vizio TV.  I first routed it to my internal speakers.

I then played back a web source which I knew was sampled at 48k.

I used a recording ap to record the audio output.  That ap has the capability of recording audio from the computer without resampling or changing anything; what it sees is what it takes.  If it's fed 44 it will record in 44, if it's fed 48 it will record in 48, etc. etc.  Well, the recording started recording not in 48 but in 44.

So I then tried routing the output of the driver to my HDMI Vizio device.  Same problem.

I then went into the Windows Sound menu and called up the properties for the JRiver Media Center WDM driver.

Turns out it's got sampling rate choices.  There's no transparency setting that will simply pass the audio without resampling or reprocessing.

And sure enough when I changed the sampling rates on the JRiver WDM driver, my recordings changed sample rates, even though I was still playing the 48k source.

In other words, the 48k sample rate of the source audio was being ignored, overruled by the sampling rate settings of the JRiver WMD driver.

So I'm not getting the transparent pass-through I thought I would be getting.

I'm really hoping I've simply done something really stupid, and that it's something simple and obvious that I need to correct, and that you will be able to explain to me what I'm doing wrong.

Thank you for any help.

[RD James]

You can't bypass the mixer unless the source application supports an exclusive audio output.
If the source matches the playback device's sample rate, I don't believe that there will be any processing applied.

[criggs]

You can't bypass the mixer unless the source application supports an exclusive audio output.

Well, keep in mind that my problem is happening primarily when listening to audio from my browser.  As far as I know, there is no browser that supports exclusive audio output selection.  Of course, most browser audio played back from web pages is handed off to a third-party plug-in, usually Flash.  And, as far as I know, Flash does not give one the capability of audio output exclusivity either. 

So part of my solution is to find a browser, or to find browser plug-in audio playback, which supports exclusive audio output selection.  Is there such a thing?

If the source matches the playback device's sample rate, I don't believe that there will be any processing applied.

That's the nasty shock that I discovered, which first triggered my need.  Even when I set my computers' internal mixer to match the sample rate of the source audio, it still sounds like expletive deleted.  And, of course, as previously explained, I know the source doesn't sound like that because I am able to listen to it clean, without additional processing, on my Windows XP box with no problem.

[blgentry]

I theorize that you have something else going on with your system other than sample rate conversion.  Perhaps your audio driver has additional features that are being applied in the driver control panel.  Some kind of "enhanced" processing or something else.  Just a sample rate conversion shouldn't make a giant difference in sound quality.  The way you describe it, it sounds like this is not a subtle effect.

I would investigate the rest of the Window sound/audio driver properties and settings and see what you come up with.

What kind of sound device are you using?

Brian.

[criggs]

I theorize that you have something else going on with your system other than sample rate conversion.  Perhaps your audio driver has additional features that are being applied in the driver control panel.  Some kind of "enhanced" processing or something else.  Just a sample rate conversion shouldn't make a giant difference in sound quality.  The way you describe it, it sounds like this is not a subtle effect.  I would investigate the rest of the Window sound/audio driver properties and settings and see what you come up with.  What kind of sound device are you using?

You've put your finger on another reason why I don't think it's anything like that.  Rather I believe it's a systemic problem in all Windows systems that post-date Windows XP. 

That is because not only am I having this problem on both my Windows 7 and Windows 8 boxes.  But, in addition, I've looked to the properties on both computers, and there is indeed an Enhancements tab which has special effects that would effect the sort of undesirable change in the audio I'm hearing WHICH HAVE BEEN UNCHECKED ON BOTH COMPUTERS. 

That's what has led me to the conclusion that there's ALWAYS some sort of audio re-processing going on in modern Windows systems, which is why I'm better off obtaining a software solution which will bypass that garbage completely.

Which is why I was so interested in the JRiver solution, which apparently purported to deliver exactly that.

Mind you, for all I know, JRiver DOES offer that; I'm hoping I've simply been too dumb or ignorant to figure out how to implement it properly.

Which is why I continue to hope that some JRiver expert will show up on this board to tell me "Absolutely you can defeat any processing or any re-sampling!  Absolutely the JRiver WDM gives you PRECISELY that capability!  And here's how you do it."

[blgentry]

Have you used JRiver MC to play some music on this computer?  How does that music sound?  Step 1 would definitely be to get MC to play files in it's own library to your sound device, and have it sound good doing that.

Brian.

[criggs]

Step 1 would definitely be to get MC to play files in it's own library to your sound device, and have it sound good doing that.

My issue is not how good the processing is.  It's that there is any processing at all. 

Yes, I have played audio and video files through JRiver.  I can confirm that the JRiver WDM driver is re-sampling and converting/reprocessing everything.  I just played a file that runs at 44k through the JRiver WDM driver, while I set the JRiver WDM to 48k.  The file should have played at 44k. 

I am satisfied that I have not configured the WDM driver to function the way I want it to function.

[JimH]

WDM is just a driver.  It accepts whatever sound you're playing in another app and gives it to the sound device you have selected.

Your problem is either that what you're playing to WDM isn't good, or that you have configured the audio output in MC to do something you didn't expect.

Try playing from MC first, without using the WDM driver.  What happens? 

[RoderickGI]

I'm with Brian and Jim on the first step; Confirm playback of local files works as you expect.

Have you used JRiver MC to play some music on this computer?  How does that music sound?  Step 1 would definitely be to get MC to play files in it's own library to your sound device, and have it sound good doing that.

Try playing from MC first, without using the WDM driver.  What happens? 

Compare to local playback on your Windows XP PC.

Have you discovered the Audio Path feature in MC yet? It will show you what MC is receiving as Input, and what processing it is performing on the audio, if any.

But that won't show the processing performed on it before MC gets to see the audio, and I think your conclusion here;

So part of my solution is to find a browser, or to find browser plug-in audio playback, which supports exclusive audio output selection.

is probably correct, if you want to be absolutely sure there is no processing done by Windows.

However,

If the source matches the playback device's sample rate, I don't believe that there will be any processing applied.

So if your source is playing 16bit 48KHz audio and under the "Advanced Tab" of the "JRiver Media Center 23" (the WDM Driver) Windows Playback device the "Default Format" which is "used when running in shared mode" (i.e. non-exclusive mode, which means Windows may process the audio), is set to 16bit 48KHz, then Windows should not do any processing on that audio stream.

Of course, to be sure there is no processing, you would need to change the "Default Format" to whatever the source format was every time you played something, which isn't practical. Hence the need for a source capable of Exclusive Mode.

[criggs]

Try playing from MC first, without using the WDM driver.  What happens?

I assume by "without using the WDM driver" you mean go into the Windows Sound menu and change the playback device to the regular one Windows normally uses.

I did that. 

Then, in JRiver, I played back a file which I knew ran at 44k and changed the Windows default audio device, which was now my chosen Windows audio device, to 48k. 

I then started the audio file playing back in JRiver, and recorded its output in my recording ap.

The recording ap saw the audio as running in 44k, NOT 48k.  In other words, PAYDIRT!!!

I then did the reverse, just to be sure.  I played back a file which I knew ran at 48k and changed the Windows default audio device, which was now my chosen Windows audio device, to 44k.

I then started that 48k audio file playing back in JRiver, and recorded its output also to my recording ap.

Again, the recording ap saw the audio as running at its original sample rate, 48k, rather than 44.  In other words, again PAYDIRT!!!

So, first, thank you, thank you.  That's 50% of the job right there.

Now I had to get JRiver to play back the Sirius page.

So I inputted that URL into JRiver.  Got the log-in prompt, things seemed to be going normally.  Signed in.

At which point I got the message that my Flash player needed to be updated and a Sirius link for me to do so.  So I clicked that link to do so.

At which point Microsoft Internet Explorer opened up instead of my default browser.  As you may know, the Flash Player cannot be updated in Microsoft Internet Explorer in modern Windows OS's; it is bundled into the operating system and cannot be changed.  In fact, that's one of the most important reasons why I do not use IE as my default browser.

So I now have what sounds like a very straightforward simple question, but I've been stumped after several minutes of looking around.  How do I change the default browser used by JRiver MC?  I'm sure it's in one of the application's menus, probably in an obvious place and I'm just missing it.  But I can't seem to find it.

As always, thanks very much for helping me with this.

[criggs]

Have you discovered the Audio Path feature in MC yet? It will show you what MC is receiving as Input, and what processing it is performing on the audio, if any.

Yes, I found it, thanks.  If I make the default Windows device the JRiver WDM driver, and set it to 48k, that is always the result reported in the Audio path, regardless of whether the source is actually 44k or 48k, at least when I'm playing Sirius through my default browser.

to be sure there is no processing, you would need to change the "Default Format" to whatever the source format was every time you played something, which isn't practical.

Exactly.  Here I am trying to get AWAY from Windows XP.  But, in this situation, I would have no choice but to keep a Windows XP box handy at all times, call up the web page with the audio in Windows XP, find out what the sample rate is, then configure my driver(s) on my Windows 7 or 8 box to match, and then, finally, start the playback on my Windows 7 or 8 box.  Obviously a non-starter scenario.

[RoderickGI]

How do I change the default browser used by JRiver MC?

Option > Tree & View > Web Browser > Engine

The search function at the bottom of the Options page helps find stuff like that easily.

The choices are only IE and Chromium. Yep Chromium, not Chrome. So not the Chrome installation on your PC, but a JRiver installed version of Chromium. I know nothing about Flash within Chromium, whether it works or not. Also not sure you can update Flash within this version of Chromium. A search around the forum will provide more info.

[criggs]

Option > Tree & View > Web Browser > Engine

Thanks.  Found it!  Changed it to Chromium.

I know nothing about Flash within Chromium, whether it works or not. Also not sure you can update Flash within this version of Chromium. A search around the forum will provide more info.

I'm afraid I came up empty on both points.  When switched to Chromium, I logged into Sirius and again got the message that the Flash player needed to be updated.  Moreover I searched this forum for Flash and Chromium, and it turns out there's nothing; the only search result was this thread.

So it looks like I'm stuck again.  Now that I know, thanks to JimH, that JRiver playback bypasses any resampling and processing when playing with the Windows driver set to default device, my goal is to play Sirius inside JRiver.  But it seems I've hit a roadblock on that goal.  As always, any help welcome.

Unless someone can come up with a way to use my external default browser to do that, so I don't have to play it inside JRiver.  Either is acceptable provided the playback takes its cue on the sampling rate from the source stream rather than any audio device config.

[criggs]

Tried all of this on my Windows 7 box.

Got to the point where I was playing local audio files on my Windows7 box through JRiver.  Had my Windows Sound device configured to the default, as JimH suggested.  Deliberately misconfigured all devices to put out 48k, even though source file was 44.  Recorded on recording ap and was still getting the right sample rate, 44.

So far so good.

Then I tried playing Sirius inside JRiver again, as I had failed to do on Windows 8.

Success!  Apparently my Windows 7 Internet Explorer has a working Flash plug-in, unlike my Windows 8 box.

Recorded on recording ap, and was getting the WRONG sample rate, 48.

Went to Audio Path, as RoderickGI suggested.

And it said Not using JRiver audio engine.

Darn!!

So that's my next challenge.  How do I get JRiver's internal browser function to send audio through JRiver's audio engine? 

If I can solve that, I'm in business!!

As always, thanks for the help.  I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, I think.

[RoderickGI]

So that's my next challenge.  How do I get JRiver's internal browser function to send audio through JRiver's audio engine? 

I don't believe you can. Even though the browser inside MC looks like it is internal, it is still a separate product, and plays to the Windows sound system just like an external browser. At least I'm pretty sure Hendrik has said something like that in the past.

Hence the WDM Driver.

If you can't find stuff in the forum using the forum search engine (which is a bit limited) try using Google to search the forum. You may find more info.

[criggs]

I don't believe you can. Even though the browser inside MC looks like it is internal, it is still a separate product, and plays to the Windows sound system just like an external browser. At least I'm pretty sure Hendrik has said something like that in the past.  Hence the WDM Driver.

Well, then, I'm back to the drawing-board.  Is there any way I can get Windows 7 and later to play the Sirius page while bypassing the sample rate instructions and other processing from the onboard audio drivers, like it does in Windows XP?

If you can't find stuff in the forum using the forum search engine (which is a bit limited) try using Google to search the forum. You may find more info.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[blgentry]

If you won't start at the beginning, you're never going to get anywhere.  Please try playing a local file though MC and see how it sounds.  Otherwise, if it sounds like crap, you're right back at square one aren't you?  Because the WDM driver is an INPUT driver.  The output is always JRiver's configured audio device.  So until you've tested JRIver's OUTPUT audio device, you don't know what you might get.  Test it.

I suspect you will find you actually have a windows audio driver issue.  I ask again:  What kind of audio device are you using?

Brian.

[JimH]

I'm going to close this now.  Please re-read the advice you've received.  Start with playback from JRiver (not from a browser).  Re-read the Audio Setup topic on our wiki.

Please don't start a new thread until you've done a thorough job of this.

[criggs]

I posted two messages which specifically reported the results I achieved when following the advice you gave in a previous message.  Specifically, you advised the following in that previous message:

Try playing from MC first, without using the WDM driver.

I followed that advice, and reported on the results in two messages, one reporting the results on my Windows 8 computer, the second reporting my Windows 7 results. 

I achieved the results I wanted, though only with my local files, not with browser audio streaming.  And the latter was my immediate need, not proper playback on my local audio files.

I read the article at https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Setup .  That article also makes reference to an Audio Output Modes article at https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Output_Modes , so I read that as well.

Here are my takeaways from those articles.

To bypass Windows processing, you told me to do the following in your first message in the previous thread:

here's how to enable the WDM driver:  https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/WDM_Driver

Accordingly, I went to that article, which instructed me to do the following:

go to the windows control panel, and then to the Sound menu item. You should see all of the Audio devices on your system listed. Select the one labelled JRiver Media Center 20 and click the Set Default button at the bottom of the menu

Accordingly, I did so.

Now, to this morning, and the two articles which I pulled up in response to your latest message.  The first article states the following:

Under the drop-down menu button, you'll find each of your installed Audio Devices listed, with what MC detected as the best Audio Output Mode.

In the case of my Windows 8 computer, the default device that I usually use is the RealTek High Definition Audio.  How to configure to achieve my desired result?

The second article states the following:

To get the best audio quality, your software should communicate directly with your sound hardware, without Windows or any other layer doing resampling or other processing of the signal.

Yep, that's exactly what I'm looking for.

In my JRiver installation, the RealTek is listed twice, as WASAPI and Direct Sound.  According to that second article:

Core Audio, ASIO, WASAPI, and Kernel Streaming are all hardware direct.

So I selected WASAPI for the RealTek in the JRiver application.

But when I now play the Sirius in my browser, I'm still not getting a clean passthrough; I'm still getting audio that has been re-processed/re-sampled. 

Bottom line:  The JRiver audio engine is doing exactly what I want it to do when I play local files.  But if I make the JRiver driver my default Windows audio device when playing the Sirius stream through my browser, the material is being re-sampled/re-processed. 

In fact, under those circumstances, the RealTek driver, on the one hand, is doing exactly what I want it to do.  If I set the RealTek driver in Windows to 96k but with all exclusive modes checked, and set the JRiver driver in Windows to 48k, then start Sirius playing, then make a recording in my record ap first from the JRiver driver and then from the RealTek driver, I'm getting the same sample rate, 48k.  In other words, the RealTek 96k has been defeated by its exclusive mode, which is successfully passing through the JRiver driver that's feeding it without re-sampling.  This would appear to be exactly what I want.

However what I DON'T want is for the sample rate that I've dialed into the JRiver driver itself to override the sample rate of the browser's Sirius stream that's being fed to it.  And that is still what's occurring.  The Sirius stream is 44k (I know that from my Windows XP box), but the JRiver driver is sending 48k to the RealTek since that's what happens to be dialed in as its sample rate, instead of allowing to pass through unchanged the 44k Sirius stream that's being fed to it.  And yes, I have all exclusive modes checked for the JRiver driver as well.

Now, at first, I thought the solution would be to have JRiver play back the Sirius stream in its own internal browser.  As RoderickGI pointed out, one can always confirm the sample rate of a JRiver playback by looking in the Audio Path.  Those sample rates always look right when JRiver is playing my local files.  However, when I finally successfully loaded and played the Sirius stream in JRiver's internal browser, sample rates dialed into the output device to which JRiver is routed in Tools, Options, Audio, Audio Device, which had been successfully overridden when JRiver played local files, were no longer being overridden.  Instead they were overriding the sample rate of the Sirius stream.  So I looked at the Audio Path, and lo and behold got the very disappointing message that this time the JRiver audio engine was not being used, even though I was playing it in JRiver's internal browser.

You concluded your message this morning with the following:

Please don't start a new thread until you've done a thorough job of this.

As you can see, I believe I've now hit all the bases, and I've tried very hard to be as thorough as possible (maybe TOO thorough!).  Accordingly, here is that new thread you suggested I start once I

1)  posted the results of your previous advice, which I actually already did, both in the previous thread and above, and
2)  read and studied thoroughly the Audio Setup wiki article, which I have now done, attempting to absorb not only the Audio Setup article but also the related Audio Output Modes article.

I hope I've now fulfilled both of your requirements laid out in your message this morning, and that we can now take this to the next step, which is the following:

I've not yet succeeded in getting the audio playing back from Sirius in my browser to play back through my system without re-sampling or re-processing.  As previously stated, my understanding was that JRiver would enable me to do that.  I remain hopeful that it can, but so far I have not been successful in figuring out how to make that happen.  And I continue to hope that the experts in this forum will be able to figure out a way that I can do so.

blgentry had some questions for me:

Please try playing a local file though MC and see how it sounds.  Otherwise, if it sounds like crap, you're right back at square one aren't you?  Because the WDM driver is an INPUT driver.  The output is always JRiver's configured audio device...I suspect you will find you actually have a windows audio driver issue.  I ask again:  What kind of audio device are you using?

My problem is that the RealTek driver on the Windows 8 box, and, for that matter, the equivalent driver on the Windows 7 box which is IDT, are not operating in exclusive mode with my browser audio, even though I’ve checked exclusive mode; they are both insisting on putting in their oar, presumably because I am unable to put my browser in exclusive mode.  If I understand your question, you're asking whether the RealTek and IDT drivers still sound like crap even when they're successfully operating in exclusive mode, such as when JRiver is playing something back through them.  Well, the answer is they no longer sound like crap; they sound perfectly fine.  This is why I'm persuaded that this is a configuration issue rather than an audio device quality issue.  In your words, when RealTek and/or IDT are in shared mode, as they apparently operate with browser audio, crap (whether I match the sample rate to the source material or not); when RealTek and/or IDT are in exclusive mode, as they apparently operate when JRiver is playing local files, not crap.

As always, thank you for any help any of you are able to provide on this matter.

[Hendrik]

Unless you can get the playback application (ie. the browser) into exclusive mode, then its always going to hit the windows mixer and get possibly re-sampled to the rate the WDM driver is set to. There is no way to fix that other then the browser using exclusive mode, which seems a rather unlikely feature for them to add. Its simply impossible otherwise. By the time anything gets to the audio, its already been processed by Windows.

[criggs]

Unless you can get the playback application (ie. the browser) into exclusive mode, then its always going to hit the windows mixer and get possibly re-sampled to the rate the WDM driver is set to. There is no way to fix that other then the browser using exclusive mode, which seems a rather unlikely feature for them to add. Its simply impossible otherwise. By the time anything gets to the audio, its already been processed by Windows.

In that case, is there some other device or software which can be assigned as the default audio driver in Windows which will treat EVERY audio playback stream as an exclusive-mode stream, i.e. will allow that stream's sample rate to override whatever sample rate happens to be dialed into the driver?  Or, alternately, what would be great is if there's some driver that has an "exclusive" option available right along with the list of sample rates, meaning that I would have the option of selecting "exclusive" rather than a particular sample rate like 44 or 48 or whatever.

Looking at the other end of the equation, the browser end, I came across an intriguing thread about putting browsers in exclusive mode at https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chrome-exclusive-mode-audio.747478/ .  This guy claims to have successfully put his browser into exclusive mode with an instruction in his desktop shortcut to the browser, as you can see.  I tried putting in that same instruction to my one Chrome browser shortcut on my Windows 8 box and my two browser shortcuts, Chrome and Internet Explorer, on my Windows 7 box, but the sample rate was still getting overridden (the latest Firefox on both boxes can't handle Sirius).  Still, if there's some way to make a browser operate in exclusive mode, that would certainly be another solution.

Finally, what about adding the feature of exclusive mode audio playback to JRiver's internal browser?  That would solve the problem too, no?

[blgentry]

I find it nearly impossible to believe that just the browser being set to a different sample rate than the driver could make such a big difference.

Are we talking about a difference that's somewhat subtle?

I was imagining the audio I heard from Sirius in my car where almost all stations had very little highs, a lots of "smeary" distortion.  It sounded very much like a 64kbit MP3.  Just terrible.

Resampling distortion can sound REALLY bad when it's bad.  But the Windows mixer isn't bad enough to cause obvious distortion right?  Otherwise how would anyone tolerate even youtube audio in Windows?  I never hear anyone complain about browser audio in Windows.

I can only come to two conclusions:

1.  You're chasing a subtle sound quality problem that most people can't hear.
2.  Your audio setup is "broken" in some way.  This might be it, as RealTek is known to make terrible hardware and terrible software.  Perhaps you should try an external USB DAC.  Or another sound card.

Brian.

[Hendrik]

In that case, is there some other device or software which can be assigned as the default audio driver in Windows which will treat EVERY audio playback stream as an exclusive-mode stream, i.e. will allow that stream's sample rate to override whatever sample rate happens to be dialed into the driver?

This is just not possible. By the time the driver even enters the picture, the audio already went through the mixer (unless you use exclusive mode)

Looking at the other end of the equation, the browser end, I came across an intriguing thread about putting browsers in exclusive mode at https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chrome-exclusive-mode-audio.747478/ .

This would likely only work if the browser itself is doing the playback. If it uses Flash (as your earlier posts seem to point to), then its probably Flash doing the playback, and not the browser, so the flag would have no effect.

Finally, what about adding the feature of exclusive mode audio playback to JRiver's internal browser?  That would solve the problem too, no?

We just integrate the browser control, we don't develop them.

[dtc]

Unless you can get the playback application (ie. the browser) into exclusive mode, then its always going to hit the windows mixer and get possibly re-sampled to the rate the WDM driver is set to. There is no way to fix that other then the browser using exclusive mode, which seems a rather unlikely feature for them to add. Its simply impossible otherwise. By the time anything gets to the audio, its already been processed by Windows.

Off topic, unrelated to WDM - How does this relate to Panel running in a browser and playing to a Windows client machine? Does that audio go through the mixer on the client machine also, or does Panel allow you to avoid the mixer?

[JimH]

Please do not start a new thread on this.