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[fitbrit]

I spent 6 hours trying to fix this seemingly random problem for someone the other day. Any help here would be very much appreciated.

The setup:
HTPC via HDMI to a 4K TV.
HTPC via second HDMI to an AVR (20ft away), which in turn is connected to the 4K TV and another 4K TV via a splitter, and a 4K projector via secondary HDMI output.

The problem:
MC suddenly stops being able to play multichannel audio in exclusive (WASAPI) mode. Once this happens, it's very difficult to get back. Instead the "playback of this output format failed" message occurs repeatedly. Direct sound isn't affected.
We managed to track it down to HDMI distance, we think. When the projector is removed from the path, the system seems to work as expected.
When the projector is in the mix, the WASAPI error can occur at random. However, some files are more likely to cause it, it seems.
Once something is playing, you can advance to another file via Display View OSD's Playing Now. That same file, that can be launched that way, would fail if it were launched from standard view.

So far we have narrowed this behaviour down to these possibilities:
- Total HDMI chain is too long (over 45 ft)
- Some kind of EDID issue where the projector or one of the TVs is causing MC to see only 2-channel playback capability. (AVR is configured correctly in Windows)
- Some kind of HDCP issue.

Any thoughts you share would be appreciated.

[RoderickGI]

I would lay my money on an HDMI handshake/EDID issue.

I have a minor problem at the moment in that my 4K TV, which is playing at 1080p, refreshes the screen resolution/frame rate/whatever randomly every now and then, so that I might get a brief black screen or more usually just get the TV's resolution information overlay display when it happens. Annoying, not fatal. This only started happening after I briefly set the resolution to 4K on the PC, just to check out what a certain file looked like on the TV at 4K. Setting the PC back to 1080p has not stopped the problem. I haven't diagnosed the issue yet because unplugging and replacing cables is a bit difficult in my installation at the moment. I suspect it is because the EDID was changed, or Windows/GPU driver/something decided that the HDMI cable couldn't handle 4K.

Anyway, on your issue, my best guesses:
Not the 45ft total length, as long as you are using a powered splitter. Also, the receiver should be powering the signal, and not just passing it through with attenuation. You may be able to check that with the manufacturer.
Not an HDCP issue, as stuff just wouldn't play at all. You couldn't trick HDCP into playing the way you describe. I think you would get a different error message as well, and from Windows not just MC.

Thoughts:
Direct Sound isn't affected as Windows make sure the output matches the capabilities of the target device?
The problem goes away when the projector is disconnected. The projector is stereo only? Windows has decided that the projector is the endpoint of the HDMI chain, so uses its capabilities when in Exclusive Mode to decide if MC can play the file? (Maybe some Windows update, perhaps even related to HDCP or DRM, is more aggressively trying to determine the HDMI endpoint?
What has changed in the setup recently, or is this a new installation? Including Windows updates.

Suggestions?
Hmm. Difficult.
I take it the AVR is set to 5.1 or 7.1 channels? Is the first 4K TV, the one directly connected to the HTPC, also set to the same configuration? Can the projector be set to accept the same configuration?
Do you have Zones set up for playing to the different targets? Do the zones have appropriate channel configurations?
Are all the cables long distance 4K capable? i.e. Are they Active HDMI cables? Attenuation is an issue for longer cable, particularly at the bandwidth required for 4K. Active HDMI cables have a chip in them to boost the signal, apparently.
Use Wireless HDMI? Whether that would work depends on what the problem is. Windows selecting the wrong endpoint could still be a problem.
Did you try unplugging the projector, rebooting the HTPC, playing to each TV, rebooting the PC, and then plugging the projector back in, then test again? Some sequence like that might reset the EDID and/or HDMI endpoint.


Anyway, I'm an amateur at this so just guessing a bit, and out of time. Let us know if you find the problem though, as it may help others, including me! 

[fitbrit]

Thanks for the response, Roderick.

This is a new installation.
I don't think the projector has any speakers

We've tried an HD Fury Integral, and the EDID issue, if any, is NOT solved. I did not have a hand in doing this, though, so I cannot say what degree of confidence I have that it was done in the best way.
Our last resort is to buy an EDID device.
The AVR is set to 7.1, and all channels work just fine setting up the device in Windows.
The monitors and projector all duplicate their display and none are expected to play audio. Therefore they are all on the same HDMI audio zone. Although your question does give me an idea.
I don't think wireless HDMI has been considered, but HDMI-over-ethernet have been purchased on a trial basis.
We tried all the unplugging, switching off combinations that made sense at the time. No matter what, the signal would go bad eventually if the projector was in the mix.

I'll report back how things went.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I would go with the EDID spoofing device.  My system is not as complex as yours and I only used one HDMI path.  But, a Geffen HDMI Detective + solved all my HDMI frustrations for good years ago.

[fitbrit]

I would go with the EDID spoofing device.  My system is not as complex as yours and I only used one HDMI path.  But, a Geffen HDMI Detective + solved all my HDMI frustrations for good years ago.

Thanks. It solved mine too, but this is not my system, and it is all 4k in resolution, not 1080p.
Hopefully the 4k spoofer will work - trying a new one tonight.

[mojave]

If Direct Sound works, but WASAPI fails occasionally, the issue can be that something is requesting 16-bit audio instead of 24-bit. Try changing the Bitdepth from Automatic to 16-bit Integer for the WASAPI output.

What projector and AVR are being used?

[fitbrit]

If Direct Sound works, but WASAPI fails occasionally, the issue can be that something is requesting 16-bit audio instead of 24-bit. Try changing the Bitdepth from Automatic to 16-bit Integer for the WASAPI output.

What projector and AVR are being used?

Anthem AVM60
and Sony VPL-VW675ES

WASAPI only fails when the projector is connected, and not always either. One ColdPlay concert almost always seems to work even if the projector is connected. And once that works, all videos work if navigated to from the OSD, but they may fail from standard view.
Thanks for the bit-dept suggestion. Will try that too.

[fitbrit]

Just spent another 6 hours trying to figure this out. Nothing seems to work for more than a minute. Often, after everything is restarted, everything is ok. Then, seemingly at random, everything is not ok, and the same files that were being played a moment ago, cannot be played via WASAPI.

The client wants to bitstream TrueHD and DTS-HD MA because most of his titles are ATMOS and DTS:X. So we have HDMI bitstreaming turned on. LPCM video files are set for 7.1 upmixing via JRSS. The projector doesn't seem to be a factor any more. The problems persist with or without it. EDID issues are still possible, but they must be a bit exotic; the EDID issues I am used to are when the AVR doesn't appear as a 7.1 device, but rather is only a stereo device.

Completely stumped!

[JimH]

You're in an area that I don't know much at all, but I had a problem like that when I bought a new 4K TV and a 4K stand-alone disc player.  It would play briefly in 4K and then fall back.

I tried a lot of things.  If I hooked the disc player up to the TV, it worked fine.  I read some about HDCP and it requires a complete path.  Every device (and cable) must support the _right_level_ of HDCP.  I ended up buying a new receiver and then it worked.

If you haven't done it, hook up the components directly to the displays and see if everything works.

I'd also simplify the setup.

Not worth much probably, but at least I've unburdened my heart. 

[fitbrit]

You're in an area that I don't know much at all, but I had a problem like that when I bought a new 4K TV and a 4K stand-alone disc player.  It would play briefly in 4K and then fall back.

I tried a lot of things.  If I hooked the disc player up to the TV, it worked fine.  I read some about HDCP and it requires a complete path.  Every device (and cable) must support the _right_level_ of HDCP.  I ended up buying a new receiver and then it worked.

If you haven't done it, hook up the components directly to the displays and see if everything works.

I'd also simplify the setup.

Not worth much probably, but at least I've unburdened my heart. 

Thanks, Jim.
We tried something like that today, and simplified things a lot. The video plays fine, it's the audio that brings up the error message it seems. We updated display drivers as well. Lots of my customers have 4K displays, and even multiple ones, but this has been crazy. I need a break for a couple of days before I delve back into all this.
Connecting to a display directly is not going to be of much help - we need to get bitstreamed sound to the receiver, and that's where the system seems to be failing.

[fitbrit]

Some progress.

- Anthem receiver always shows up correctly as a 7.1-capable device in Windows, so it's not a straight EDID issue.
- Decoding TrueHD and DTS-HD MA to direct sound and using JRSS to produce a 7.1 output works fine.
- Using WASAPI with these video-based audio formats FAILS, and I get the message to try 2-channel
- Using WASAPI with stereo files and upmixing to 7.1 works perfectly.
- Bitstreaming the audio from the video files doesn't work, even though Windows believes the AVR is capable of decoding the sound from any of the formats in question.

So what would cause WASAPI exclusive to fail on for video files and the LPCM, TrueHD, DTS-HDMA etc. formats but not 2-channel audio.
Sounds like an HDCP issue, no? But someone mentioned earlier that there would be no video if that were the case.

[JimH]

Can you be certain that the problem isn't related to the files you're testing with?  Or how they were made?

[fitbrit]

Can you be certain that the problem isn't related to the files you're testing with?  Or how they were made?

Absolutely certain. In part, that's because the files have worked as expected at some point, but inconsistently. One minute they work, and the next they do not.

[RoderickGI]

I had a look at the specs of some of the equipment you are connecting up. Quite a setup.

I still think you have an HDMI Chain or Endpoint issue, but it may be HDCP that is preventing the audio getting through. If the source device decides that the HDMI Endpoint or any part of the chain isn't HDCP 2.2 compliant (for 4K content) then the source will take some action. I have read of HDCP issues including Video/No Audio, Audio/No Video. neither Audio or Video, a display of the message "Unauthorized HDCP". I think the response is dependent on the source.

It is a pity that you weren't involved in the HD Fury Integral setup and testing. That looks like some piece of equipment that should solve any issue.... but, it is limited to one and only one HDCP 2.2 output, while the other is HDCP 1.4. 4K content requires HDCP 2.2. There are also a bunch of other settings that need to be set right as well.

I could not think of one place in the HDMI chain that I could install the HD Fury Integral and supply HDCP 2.2 signals to all sinks. You have four sinks in that setup, three 4K TVs and one 4K projector. You also have two sources on the HTPC. Do they come from one discrete video card, or are you using one from a discrete video card and one from an iGPU in the processor?


In the configuration you described;

The setup:
HTPC via HDMI to a 4K TV.
HTPC via second HDMI to an AVR (20ft away), which in turn is connected to the 4K TV and another 4K TV via a splitter, and a 4K projector via secondary HDMI output.

So;
HTPC ->  iGPU HDMI port -> 4K TV
HTPC -> Discrete Video card HDMI port -> Anthem AVM60 HDMI Input -> Anthem AVM60 HDMI Output -> Sony VPL-VW675ES Projector
                                                                                                            Anthem AVM60 HDMI Output  -> HDMI Splitter -> 4K TV
                                                                                                                                                        -> HDMI Splitter -> 4K TV


Are both HTPC HDMI ports HDCP 2.2 compliant?
Are the TVs all HDCP 2.2 compliant?
Is the splitter HDCP 2.2 compliant?

The Anthem AVM60 seems to be HDCP 2.2 compliant all around, but I couldn't find anywhere that it specifically says both HDMI outputs are compliant. It just says it has HDCP 2.2 and two parallel outputs. But one includes ARC (Audio Return Channel) and the other doesn't, so there may be a difference.

The Sony VPL-VW675ES is HDCP 2.2 compliant but doesn't include Audio. I wonder if that is communicated back to the source, which then mutes the audio? If so the best I could think of was to put the HD Fury Integral between the Anthem AVM60 and the Sony VPL-VW675ES, as long as both outputs on the Anthem AVM60 are HDCP 2.2 compliant.

So I think you need to methodically work through the HDMI chain and confirm everything is HDCP 2.2 compliant. The variable results you are seeing may be as a result of what is seen as the HDMI Endpoint, which probably depends on what is turned on when the HTPC is turned on, or what was last played to, or all sorts of stuff.

As always, Good Luck! 

[fitbrit]

Thanks for your very well thought-out reply, Roderick. After another 5 hours of working with my client and many more hours of reading, the issue is fixed.
Your evaluation of the setup was not quite accurate, but since I am now exhausted, I will provide the details during daylight. In the end the HDFury Vertex came to the rescue, but the feature I used is part of the Integral as well.

This was a huge stress on my mind for the past week. I can finally enjoy what’s left of my time off, I think.

[JimH]

Congratulations.

[RoderickGI]

Well done Fitbrit.

I look forward to reading what the problem was.

[fitbrit]

As promised.

The setup was an HTPC with dual HDMI (integrated) outputs. There are also two 4K TVs, a 4K projector and a 4K Anthem receiver.
As a result of the issues, the owner settled on this configuration:


HTPC  HDMI1-> 4K TV 1
HTPC HDMI 2 -> AVM 60 -> HDMI output 1 -> 4K Projector
                         AVM 60 -> HDMI output 2 -> 4K TV 2

We never really figured out the issue, but finally installed an HDFury Vertex device, which is the top of the line. I had previously read that the HDFury Integral had an "HTPC mode" specifically designed for this type of application, so I recommended that product at first. The owner tried that and the Vertex too, but he was either guessing or having trouble installing the GUI.
Once the GUI was correctly installed, I took a look, and we had a stab at figuring out what was going on, but not too systematically. Eventually, while reading the manual on another hunch, I found a section of the Vertex GUI that had the HTPC mode checkbox. We checked that, restarted the HTPC and suddenly it all worked out.
The less expensive Integral has the same feature so could have solved the issue too, but the owner was content not to touch anything now that it was all working. It's not completely optimised, but it is entirely robust, and hasn't failed at all since we got it right. That is in contrast to all those other times when it might work for one or two videos and then fail. We are currently only sending out 1080p, and upscaling in the TVs or projector. This works out well, as most content the owner has is 1080p, and the lack of upscaling in MadVR makes using ROHQ possible, even with integrated video. Because of the ATMOS capabilities of the receiver, we are simply bitstreaming everything for video, although there is a JRSS 7.1 zone installed too.
So there you have it. A bit of a mystery, but a piece of kit designed to solve the mystery solved the mystery.

[RoderickGI]

Thanks for filling us in.

I had a look at the HDFury Vertex specs, and it is an impressive bit of kit.

Where did you install it in the HDMI chain? Just after the HTPC HDMI outputs, before 4K TV 1 and the AVM 60? That is the obvious spot, since it supports two 4K channels with HDCP 2.2.

[fitbrit]

Thanks for filling us in.

I had a look at the HDFury Vertex specs, and it is an impressive bit of kit.

Where did you install it in the HDMI chain? Just after the HTPC HDMI outputs, before 4K TV 1 and the AVM 60? That is the obvious spot, since it supports two 4K channels with HDCP 2.2.

Between HTPC and receiver. The issue was definitely between those components, since everything worked (and continued to do so) from other sources before the HTPC was introduced.

[JimH]

Was it similar to the problem I described above, where I ended up replacing the receiver?

How old was the receiver?

[fitbrit]

Was it similar to the problem I described above, where I ended up replacing the receiver?

How old was the receiver?

The receiver is quite new, and is a current model.

The HDFury Vertex fixed the issue using a mode that is described thus:

HTPC Mode
Having issue with AVR or display connected at your HTPC output, like standby mode resume issue or such ?
Integral now feature an unique and exclusive HTPC mode where anything that happen at the output is never reported to the source device.
This currently goes beyond what EDID detective and Dr.HDMI alike can offer and represent the ultimate HTPC issue solver.

What caused the issue is not certain - it may have been an Anthem AVM-60 receiver firmware update, or could have been a Windows update that resulted in the problem. One source at Anthem said that a Windows update had specifically caused this problem with MC and that "JRiver had to update its drivers".
I quickly told my customer that this did not make sense, as MC doesn't use its own drivers.

The issue is still a problem for me as I do not expect all my clients to be okay with buying a $200+ device to fix something that should work out of the box. Some other people are reporting that the Fall Creators update to Windows 10 broke HDCP for them on Nvidia hardware, but in this case we are using Intel integrated graphics.

[JimH]

Thanks for the details.  You've earned a star on The Sidewalk of Weird Problems:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,24031.msg786395.html#msg786395

[fitbrit]

Thanks for the details.  You've earned a star on The Sidewalk of Weird Problems:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,24031.msg786395.html#msg786395

I was proud of never having that honour. I guess I still don't as it wasn't my system!