More > JRiver Media Center 23 for Windows
So you think Windows Defender is turned off? Wrong!
JimH:
I agree with everything you've written. I was only kidding.
RD James:
--- Quote from: RoderickGI on February 05, 2018, 05:17:10 pm ---True, even if not used it is probably a good idea for Windows to keep the Antimalware and other security components up to date, in case a user uninstalls their third-party security software. But for me that still qualifies as Windows Defender is never turned off. I am just raising awareness here. ;)
--- End quote ---
It's updated via Windows Update. Being updated doesn't mean that Defender is running.
--- Quote from: RoderickGI on February 05, 2018, 05:17:10 pm ---I would put it a little differently, such as many users are unaware of the consequences of their actions with respect to technology, until they have a problem. But essentially, yeah.
--- End quote ---
There are so many users who insist that they are right for wanting to disable any and all kinds of protections, even once you explain the reasons why they should not, that it goes beyond people being unaware of the consequences.
The response to the Meltdown/Spectre bug was yet another example of this recently. I saw hundreds of people discussing it online, saying that they refuse to update because there might be an extremely minor performance hit. (consumer workloads tend not to be affected much)
--- Quote from: JimH on February 05, 2018, 07:16:26 pm ---I think you could just say, "Do you have a problem with antivirus software?" ;)
--- End quote ---
Jim, I understand that third-party antivirus programs are notorious for causing problems with Media Center, but your advice should be to direct users towards Windows Defender rather than being entirely against all anti-virus software.
It's third-party anti-virus software that causes problems. The worst I've seen Windows Defender do is increase CPU usage because it's scanning files as Media Center is accessing them.
And that giant topic on here the other day about "taming Windows Defender [anti-virus]" is not providing users with helpful advice.
As discussed in that topic, the recommendations were excessive and far more permissive than they need to be. You can exclude Media Center from being scanned by Defender Anti-Virus with two rules, not the 20+ recommended there.
--- Quote from: RoderickGI on February 05, 2018, 08:13:49 pm ---I don't care if technically the Defender Firewall can be turned off via Windows Policies.
[...]
The message is simple: In Windows 10 today, if you see any issues, assume that Windows Defender is always running.
--- End quote ---
You're clearly pushing an agenda here, rather than handing out advice.
What you've said in this topic really amounts to: 'I thought Norton 360 had disabled Windows Defender Firewall, but it was still running.'
When presented with instructions for disabling it, your response is 'I don't care, it's still running!'
RoderickGI:
--- Quote from: RD James on February 05, 2018, 08:58:37 pm ---You're clearly pushing an agenda here, rather than handing out advice.
--- End quote ---
I'm not pushing any agenda, other than trying to raise awareness of what Microsoft and Defender are doing, despite users believing it is disabled. That is only because I once again saw the evidence, and it reminded me of how many threads I had seen where people claimed Defender was off, and couldn't be the issue. But it was. Usually the Firewall. It is rather frustrating that people won't try looking into issues with their security because "they have it all under control", only to take a look on the tenth request and either disappear without comment or say, "Oh yeah. I've fixed it now" as if they never heard the advice.
But I hear what you are saying, that the Windows Defender Suite is now a good solution, does a great job, and is reliable. Fine. Is that an agenda? Defender and Windows Firewall certainly did not use to be a good solution, so I am taking a bit to convince.
--- Quote from: RD James on February 05, 2018, 08:58:37 pm ---What you've said in this topic really amounts to: 'I thought Norton 360 had disabled Windows Defender Firewall, but it was still running.'
--- End quote ---
More;
"I use Norton 360 and I don't expect Defender to still require my attention and the setting of rules for my applications to work."
Or;
"There is a gap in the Microsoft implementation of support for third-party Security Suites that can allow Windows Defender components to take action even though they have not been set up to act as the active Security Suite."
No doubt when Microsoft made it impossible for Norton to start first before other applications, the compromise was that Defender Firewall would run until Norton 360 was allowed to run and asserted itself as the security software on my PC. Based on the logic used here, that Defender runs until a third party App asserts control, I have to assume that Defender Antivirus also runs for a short period at boot time. What if Defender Antivirus decided in that short time that Media Server contained a virus and either quarantined or deleted it? That could certainly happen and may have happened to some users recently when the MC Digital Signatures changed recently. There were a few comments about MC not working or installing fully after the upgrade to MC23, but then magically working after MC was installed a second time. That sounds like a security software issue, where a component was prevented from installing, or removed on reboot.
BTW, that is probably why it is a good idea to set exclusions in Defender Antivirus; because it will run briefly before any other security suite, and in that time it may take some unwanted action. I agree with you that the thread on Defender went too far, and a couple of simple exclusions would be enough. I recommended three myself, with a couple of options, and those were just for the Firewall. Really, no exclusions should be required. In Norton 360 the only Antivirus exclusion I have is for "\System Volume Information\", and that was added automatically.
Plus it is not just the Firewall and Antivirus I am talking about. It appears to me that even with Windows Defender Firewall turned off, Windows Defender SmartScreen is still active. I just turned off all three Windows Defender Firewall Profiles using the "Windows Defender Firewall with Advanced Security" Management Console, confirmed that in the "Windows Defender Security Center" and then made changes to the Windows Defender SmartScreen settings. It all still seemed active.
--- Quote from: RD James on February 05, 2018, 08:58:37 pm ---When presented with instructions for disabling it, your response is 'I don't care, it's still running!'
--- End quote ---
Well, because of the change I mentioned above about the timing of starting Norton 360, turning off Defender Firewall could actually have consequences if my boot sector was ever compromised, for example. So I don't really care if it is still running. More security is better, as long as it doesn't have significant downsides.
But I am telling users that it is still running, even if they use a third party Security Suite, even if it only runs for a short time at boot time, so consider that when you see issues with MC. That is all.
flac.rules:
--- Quote from: RD James on February 05, 2018, 08:58:37 pm ---It's updated via Windows Update. Being updated doesn't mean that Defender is running.
There are so many users who insist that they are right for wanting to disable any and all kinds of protections, even once you explain the reasons why they should not, that it goes beyond people being unaware of the consequences.
The response to the Meltdown/Spectre bug was yet another example of this recently. I saw hundreds of people discussing it online, saying that they refuse to update because there might be an extremely minor performance hit. (consumer workloads tend not to be affected much)
Jim, I understand that third-party antivirus programs are notorious for causing problems with Media Center, but your advice should be to direct users towards Windows Defender rather than being entirely against all anti-virus software.
It's third-party anti-virus software that causes problems. The worst I've seen Windows Defender do is increase CPU usage because it's scanning files as Media Center is accessing them.
--- End quote ---
You mean the update with fixed a security hole that seems to be not very relevant for the regular user, that screwed up a lot of machines, and that even intel recommends you wait with installing? Doesn't seem like the best example.
The worst you have seen it do maybe, a lot of people has seen worse.
I am so tired of the "we know better than you" attitude MS has in win10. They often don't, and even if they do, so what? Let people do stupid stuff if they insist. I think more people would run windows defender if they actually let you turn off the real time scan, without turning it on again, against the will of the user. Stuff like this has its cost as well, countless hours of work has been lost due to MS policies.
JimH:
--- Quote from: RD James on February 05, 2018, 08:58:37 pm ---Jim, I understand that third-party antivirus programs are notorious for causing problems with Media Center, but your advice should be to direct users towards Windows Defender rather than being entirely against all anti-virus software.
It's third-party anti-virus software that causes problems. The worst I've seen Windows Defender do is increase CPU usage because it's scanning files as Media Center is accessing them.
--- End quote ---
I'm not against antivirus software. I am against the many problems they cause. None are completely innocent.
I ask people to uninstall their AV if I think it might be another AV problem they're reporting. Uninstalling it is a very fast way to rule out AV as the source.
I wish I could better diagnose these kinds of problems, but when we start to see things like the program freezing on exit, I need to be able to rule out AV.
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