Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[tbng]

Those of us with surround systems generally have a processor that automatically determines how many channels are present in the incoming signal.  If the processor sees a two-channel input, it can be set to switch automatically to a desired DSP setting that creates a virtual surround sound field.  This is ideal for classical music listeners for whom hall ambience is an inherent part of the musical experience.  If you set JRiver output to 5.1 and the input is two-channel, JRiver still outputs a 5.1 format with no data in the center and surround channels.  The surround processor still sees a 5.1 signal and will not initiate the desired two-channel DSP. 

JRiver users must configure separate output zones, i.e., one for multi-channel and another for two-channel, then manually select the desired one prior to playback.  It works but it's a nuisance.  This method eliminates obtaining desired results from a playlist that contains both two and multi-channel recordings, and JRiver can hang when switching between them manually.

I urge JRiver please to add an output setting that would allow the software to output a multi-channel signal when that is the source but automatically switch to a two-channel output when that is the source.  Roon has recently added just such a setting, so I know it can be done.

It would also be helpful if the entire multi-channel configuration process were coordinated and simplified.  I needed months to figure it out even and stumbled upon the final required step only by trial and error.

[Hendrik]

Thats what the "Source number of channels" option is for, the number of channels is output entirely as-is.

[kr4]

Thats what the "Source number of channels" option is for, the number of channels is output entirely as-is.

Yes but, in many cases, it doesn't work as expected.

[mojave]

JRiver users must configure separate output zones, i.e., one for multi-channel and another for two-channel, then manually select the desired one prior to playback.  It works but it's a nuisance.  This method eliminates obtaining desired results from a playlist that contains both two and multi-channel recordings, and JRiver can hang when switching between them manually.

I urge JRiver please to add an output setting that would allow the software to output a multi-channel signal when that is the source but automatically switch to a two-channel output when that is the source.  Roon has recently added just such a setting, so I know it can be done.

This is done automatically using ZoneSwitch. However, this doesn't work if trying to playback a mixed playlist.

Your other options are to use "Source number of channels" as Hendrik mentioned or to bitstream (turned on in Tools > Options > Audio) to your processor. Bitstreaming means you can't use JRiver's volume control or DSP.

[Hendrik]

Yes but, in many cases, it doesn't work as expected.

It does work as designed, ie. it sends the audio without any changes of channel count to your device. This seems to be exactly what you are asking for. This is the option thats supposed to do just that. What doesn't work?

[mojave]

This seems to be exactly what you are asking for.

Just to clarify, kr4 did not start the thread. 

[JimH]

We can still hold him responsible, can't we?

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I have a 7.1 system, and I have really not been too troubled in playing 2.0, 5.0, 5.1 and 7.1 files.  My music files are all 2.0, 5.0 or 5.1.  Some BD videos are 7.1, others 5.1.  I do have some 3.0 and 4.0 files, but they use 5.0 container files, so no problem.

I use two zones - 5.1 and 7.1 output - together with "For Stereo Sources, only mix to 2.1" in DSP Studio.  I do use JR Room Corection for bass management.  Zoneswitch automatically switches from the 5.1 to the 7.1 zone automatically as needed based on the Channels tag.  Yes, the two zones would lose the current playlist when switching.  But, I never intermix music and 7.1 video in the same playlist.  That does not make sense to me.  And, I have only a few music BD-As in 7.1.

So, output is always 2.1 for 2.0 input files and 5.1 for 5.0 or 5.1 input files.  It is 7.1 for 7.1 BD files, mainly videos.  I use a Mch DAC now, but when I formerly used a Mch prepro via HDMI, the above worked fine with bass management in the prepro permanently turned off in favor of JRiver bass management.

I did have some channel misalignment for a time at first because I had been using Source Number of Channels instead of 5.1 or 7.1 as my output setting in DSP Studio.  Source Number of Channels causes channel misassigments between 5.0 and 5.1 input files.  It is deceptive that way.

[tbng]

Contrary to what some you have claimed, "source number of channels" does NOT function in the way that name implies.  Selecting that configurarion will NOT result in a dynamic change in output number of channels based on input number of channels.  If you select 5.1 in JRiver, you will ALWAYS get 5.1.  If the source is two-channel, you will still get 5.1 out with three of the channels containing no data.  Dataless channels mean nothing to a surround processor.  It still sees that as 5.1 and, therefore, will not enage two-channel DSP processing.  The user must manually select the desired zone in JRiver prior to playback so that it send two of multi channels, a shortcoming for reasons I have already stated.  If Roon can do it, so can JRiver.

I eagerly await a JRiver representative's comments on this matter.

[JimH]

Hendrik is on the JRiver team.

[Hendrik]

Selecting "Source Number of channels" works just fine. I confirmed it just now. Note that for an output device to see such a change, you need to use an exclusive audio output like WASAPI in exclusive mode.

[pschelbert]

Stereo and Surround 4, 5, 5.1, 6 channels work (with 4-way crossover, total 12 channels).
I configured 12 channel fix.
DAC is a RME UFX.
I play flac with various numbers of channel. (and bit rates)
Stereo gets stereo out
5.1 gets 5.1 out and any other combination also.
The files must be in standardized channel format ITU):
1 left
2 right
3 Center
4 Sub
5 Rear left
6 Rear right

In that combination JRiver works fine (MC22.0.11)

Peter

[mojave]

Contrary to what some you have claimed, "source number of channels" does NOT function in the way that name implies.

If your Audio Device in Tools > Options > Audio Device says [Direct Sound] after it, you are going through the Windows mixer after the audio leaves JRiver. Your Sound settings in Windows Control Panel will then determine how many channels you are actually outputting.

Use a hardware direct method of output:  Audio Output Modes

[TheShoe]

It does work as designed, ie. it sends the audio without any changes of channel count to your device. This seems to be exactly what you are asking for. This is the option thats supposed to do just that. What doesn't work?

i have some dsd files that are 4.0 audio and source number of channels does not work for me.  i need to set up a zone as 5.1 to hear the surround channels as jriver outputs 2.0 if i use source number of channels.

anything that is 2.0, 5.1, 7.1 work just fine with source number of channels

[kr4]

We can still hold him responsible, can't we?

You can try but, if you are playing to a 6-8 channel DAC and you set the output to (Same as input), you get improper channel mapping with 4.0 and 5.0 sources.  I have not had such problems in years because selecting 5.1 works for me with any source format.

[tbng]

I need to clarify a point that I think is being missed.

JRiver will play a two-channel recording just fine using a 5.1 output configuration BUT ONLY IN STEREO.  I do not want to listen to two-channel recordings merely in stereo but want to engage DSP processing to create virtual surround.  To do that, the processor must see a two-channel input.  If the processor sees a 5.1 input, even if three of the channels contain zero data, it will assume discrete multi-channel input and not engage applicable DSP processing.

These are facts that I know about JRiver after a year or more of trying:

 1. Configured with "source number of channels," JRiver cannot and will not playback a multi-channel source but demand that the user change to a two-channel output configuration to continue.  The name implies that it functions as an automatic channel selection setting, but it does not.
 2. JRiver can and does permit configuration of a zone that outputs a two-channel signal that works exactly as I want it.
 3. JRiver can and does permit configuration of a zone that outputs a multi-channel signal that works exactly as I want it.
 4. JRiver cannot and does not provide a means to switch automatically between the functions described in 2 and 3. Rather, it is incumbent on the user to switch zones manually prior to playback. This is what I want to change.

P.S.  In both zone configurations, the output device used in my JRiver setup is "HD621 (Intel(R) Display Audio [WASPI]".  "HD621" refers to a Meridian HD621 HDMI interface that acts as the DAC in this case, although it sends the signal still in digital format to a Meridian 861V8 where the actual D-to-A conversion is accomplished.

[Hendrik]

"Source Number of Channels" functions just like you want it to - unless your device doesn't actually accept the number of channels you are trying to send it - in which case you are given an option to configure a different number of channels to mix to.

[kr4]

"Source Number of Channels" functions just like you want it to - unless your device doesn't actually accept the number of channels you are trying to send it - in which case you are given an option to configure a different number of channels to mix to.

That is not entirely so.  The number of channels is not the same as the mapping of channels.  If one uses "Source Number of Channels" with a 4.0 source and outputs it to an 8 channel DAC, the output is LF/RF/LS/RS (without space holders for the missing Ctr/Sub channels).  As a result, the hard-wired connections from the DAC send the LF/RF to the correct amp/speakers but the LS/RS to the Center and Subwoofer speakers.  If one chooses "5.1" as an output format, MC inserts silent Ctr/Sub outputs in the appropriate place and playback is as expected.

"Source Number of Channels" is literally correct but not always appropriate.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

"Source Number of Channels" functions just like you want it to - unless your device doesn't actually accept the number of channels you are trying to send it - in which case you are given an option to configure a different number of channels to mix to.

Actually, that is not true. Mch SACDs, for example, exist as both 5.0 and 5.1 mixes.  However, the Channel metadata tag value on the disc is either the integer value 5 or 6.  But, 6 is not the same as 5.1 and JRiver interprets it as a 6.0 recording with no sub channel, causing the channel misassigment. It redirects the disc sub channel to a different channel also messing up surround/back channel assignments.

I am not blaming JRiver.  It is a subtle, inadvertent miscue between metadata standards on the disc and the interpretation by JR.  Possibly 6.0 recordings exist, although I have never encountered any.  Unfortunately, Source Number of Channels lulls people to sleep thinking they have gotten it right.  It seems logical, though it does not work as desired.  It took me awhile to discover the problem, because it is not necessarily blatantly obvious in listening to unfamiliar recordings on my 7.1 system.  I discovered it only by looking at instantaneous channel output levels using the display in my Exasound driver.  My reaction was WTF.


The symptoms might be different on a 5.1 system, such as refusing to play.  Others have reported issues due to this in 5.1 systems in this forum.  Fortunately, setting the DSP Studio output parameter to 5.1 solves the problem for both 5.0 and 5.1 files.

I just saw Kal's response above, also.  Thanks, Kal, for an even more detailed explanation.

[Ashfall]

That is not entirely so.  The number of channels is not the same as the mapping of channels.  If one uses "Source Number of Channels" with a 4.0 source and outputs it to an 8 channel DAC, the output is LF/RF/LS/RS (without space holders for the missing Ctr/Sub channels).  As a result, the hard-wired connections from the DAC send the LF/RF to the correct amp/speakers but the LS/RS to the Center and Subwoofer speakers.  If one chooses "5.1" as an output format, MC inserts silent Ctr/Sub outputs in the appropriate place and playback is as expected.

"Source Number of Channels" is literally correct but not always appropriate.

Actually, that is not true. Mch SACDs, for example, exist as both 5.0 and 5.1 mixes.  However, the Channel metadata tag value on the disc is either the integer value 5 or 6.  But, 6 is not the same as 5.1 and JRiver interprets it as a 6.0 recording with no sub channel, causing the channel misassigment. It redirects the disc sub channel to a different channel also messing up surround/back channel assignments.
The symptoms might be different on a 5.1 system, such as refusing to play.  Others have reported issues due to this in 5.1 systems in this forum.  Fortunately, setting the DSP Studio output parameter to 5.1 solves the problem for both 5.0 and 5.1 files.

That explains what I've been seeing since forever as well!  I never could figure it out and just resorted to using automatic zone switching to send 4.0 and 5.0 audio to a "Quad Audio" zone in a 5.1 wrapper.  That causes issues with playlists though.

[JimH]

Mch SACDs, for example, exist as both 5.0 and 5.1 mixes.  However, the Channel metadata tag value on the disc is either the integer value 5 or 6.  But, 6 is not the same as 5.1 and JRiver interprets it as a 6.0 recording with no sub channel, causing the channel misassigment.

Would it be correct, in your opinion, to interpret 6 as 5.1?  If everyone agrees, we should be able to do that.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Would it be correct, in your opinion, to interpret 6 as 5.1?  If everyone agrees, we should be able to do that.

Jim - that would be fine by me, and it might help current and future users avoid the Source Number of Channels trap.  Unless someone has a lot of 6.0 BDs or other formats - DVD maybe, but I doubt it - it should not cause a major problem.

[RD James]

I think the issue here is the difference between DACs, which are 'dumb' devices, and an AVR or a Sound Card.
With a 'dumb' device like a DAC, each channel has a fixed assignment, typically:

1 - Left
2 - Right
3 - Center
4 - LFE
5 - Side Left
6 - Side Right
7 - Rear Left
8 - Rear Right

So if you send them a four channel source, they map the Rear Left/Rear Right channels to Center / LFE (channels 3 & 4).
When you send a Sound Card or AVR a four channel source, they know that it's a quadrophonic track, and map the Rear Left/Rear Right to the correct output channels (7 & 8).
 
I'm not sure that there is anything for Media Center to do here, because Media Center is behaving correctly.
When you play a four channel source and tell it to use the "source number of channels", it outputs a four channel signal mapped to channels 1-4.
If you set the output to "5.1 channels" it maps the output to channels 1,2,5,6 and if you set the output to "7.1 channels" it maps them to 1,2,7,8 ensuring that the sound is played to the Rear channels rather than the Center/LFE channels.
(apparently Rear Left/Rear Right move from channels 5 & 6 in 5.1 to 7 & 8 in a 7.1 signal, unless Media Center is doing the wrong thing here)
 

Jim - that would be fine by me, and it might help current and future users avoid the Source Number of Channels trap.  Unless someone has a lot of 6.0 BDs or other formats - DVD maybe, but I doubt it - it should not cause a major problem.

The fact that 6.0 media exists means that it would be a problem if you tried to map all 6 channel sources to a 5.1 output.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

i have some dsd files that are 4.0 audio and source number of channels does not work for me.  i need to set up a zone as 5.1 to hear the surround channels as jriver outputs 2.0 if i use source number of channels.

anything that is 2.0, 5.1, 7.1 work just fine with source number of channels

I also have some DSD rips/extracts from SACD with 3 or 4 channel audio.  However, they are all in 5.0 containers as DSFs with the appropriate channels null and containing no audio signal.  So, 5.1 output works as expected with them, as would Source Number of Channels, being equal to 5 in each case.

[dtc]

This issue has come up before. A solution may be to just add the explicit options  as an option under Source Number of Channels. For example,

4 Channel  - LF/RF/LS/RS  (4.0)
or
4 Channel  - LF/RF/C/LFE  (3.1)

5 Channel - LF/RF/C/LS/RS  (5.0)
or
5 Channel  -  LF/RF/C/LFE/BS (4.1)   (BS = Back Surround = LS+RS)

6 Channel  - LF/RF/C/LFE/LS/RS  (5.1)
or
6 Channel   - LF/RF/LS/RS/LR/RR(6.0)   (S - Side, R = Rear)


and any other options that can be identified.

It may be just a matter of having a option to include LFE or not when using Source Number of Channels, and have the mappings happen behind the scenes.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I think the issue here is the difference between DACs, which are 'dumb' devices, and an AVR or a Sound Card.
With a 'dumb' device like a DAC, each channel has a fixed assignment, typically:

1 - Left
2 - Right
3 - Center
4 - LFE
5 - Side Left
6 - Side Right
7 - Rear Left
8 - Rear Right

So if you send them a four channel source, they map the Rear Left/Rear Right channels to Center / LFE (channels 3 & 4).
When you send a Sound Card or AVR a four channel source, they know that it's a quadrophonic track, and map the Rear Left/Rear Right to the correct output channels (7 & .
 
I'm not sure that there is anything for Media Center to do here, because Media Center is behaving correctly.
When you play a four channel source and tell it to use the "source number of channels", it outputs a four channel signal mapped to channels 1-4.
If you set the output to "5.1 channels" it maps the output to channels 1,2,5,6 and if you set the output to "7.1 channels" it maps them to 1,2,7,8 ensuring that the sound is played to the Rear channels rather than the Center/LFE channels.
(apparently Rear Left/Rear right move from channels 5 & 6 in 5.1 to 7 & 8 in a 7.1 signal, unless Media Center is doing the wrong thing here)
 The fact that 6.0 media exists means that it would be a problem if you tried to map all 6 channel sources to a 5.1 output.

Maybe because I only use SACD or BD rips, I have never seen files with only 3,4 or 7 actual physical channels.  6 channels in the metadata tag on any of my files really always means 5.1.  Otherwise, all my files are 2, 5 or 8 in the metadata tag, with 8 meaning 7.1 on output.  As explained, the 3 or 4 channel SACD recordings I have are already in 5 channel containers automatically via the ripping/extraction process.

[dtc]

Maybe because I only use SACD or BD rips, I have never seen files with only 3,4 or 7 actual physical channels.  6 channels in the metadata tag on any of my files really always means 5.1.  Otherwise, all my files are 2, 5 or 8 in the metadata tag, with 8 meaning 7.1 on output.  As explained, the 3 or 4 channel SACD recordings I have are already in 5 channel containers automatically via the ripping/extraction process.

There is a 6.0 format that has been used. It was never very popular, but it definitely exists.  It has 2 fronts, 2 sides. 2 rears and no LFE.  It is meant for music, especially classical music, not movies.  The center channel for an orchestra is pretty meaningless.  Low bass goes to the front.  The mapping is in my previous post. I would need to check, but I am pretty sure that is correct.

EDIT : Here is a link to a discussion of 6.0 audio.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/chesky.htm

[Fitzcaraldo215]

There is a 6.0 format that has been used. It was never very popular, but it definitely exists.  It has 2 fronts, 2 sides. 2 rears and no LFE.  It is meant for music, especially classical music, not movies.  The center channel for an orchestra is pretty meaningless.  Low bass goes to the front.  The mapping is in my previous post. I would need to check, but I am pretty sure that is correct.

Do you know what medium they occurred on, DAD perhaps?  6.0's are probably some 1990's relic.  Once SACD's Scarlet Book was published about '99, the 5.0/5.1 ITU channel configuration became the widespread standard as SACD became the prevailing force for Mch music.  Fortunately, that was also compatible with later DTS and Dolby standards for lossless, hirez BD codecs.

It is possible, but I am still doubting there is much music or video out there in 6.0.

We disagree, by the way, on the importance of the center channel for classical, orchestral or other music in Mch.

[dtc]

Do you know what medium they occurred on, DAD perhaps?  6.0's are probably some 1990's relic.  Once SACD's Scarlet Book was published about '99, the 5.0/5.1 ITU channel configuration became the widespread standard as SACD became the prevailing force for Mch music.  Fortunately, that was also compatible with later DTS and Dolby standards for lossless, hirez BD codecs.

It is possible, but I am still doubting there is much music or video out there in 6.0.

We disagree, by the way, on the importance of the center channel for classical, orchestral or other music in Mch.

6.0 recordings came about at the time of SACDs and DVD-A. It was an alternative to 5.1. If you read the Chesky article I linked to, it discusses the important of side and rear reflects for concert hall music and why he, at least, favored that over a center and LFE channel. There are certainly 6.0 options on some SACD/DVD-A, although, as I said, it was never a big player. Mch players and receivers of the time had 6.0 input and output options.

Probably overstated the usefulness of the center channel for classical. The point was it is very different for classical than for movies. I would agree that a center is great for soundstage, but that is definitely different than the use of center speakers for voice in movies. And the center should be full range, which they seldom are.

Meridian once had a 3 channel front system that basically created a great center sound stage using the left and right channels. It was impressive, but never caught on.

Anyway, the number of people with 6.0 files is certainly very small, but it was a legitimate format for a while.


EDIT:  I think the only 6.0 DVD-Audios that were release were from Chesky Records (David Chesky). I cannot find any other references.  They were never in high production, but there were some out there. The problem was you needed a specific speaker setup and you then you needed to turn off LFE +10dB boost. 

As I said, never really caught on, but it was out there. But my guess is that if 6.0 went to 5.1 nobody would notice.  But, if fixes for the other anomalies can be made, might as well leave in 6.0

[RD James]

Maybe because I only use SACD or BD rips, I have never seen files with only 3,4 or 7 actual physical channels.  6 channels in the metadata tag on any of my files really always means 5.1.  Otherwise, all my files are 2, 5 or 8 in the metadata tag, with 8 meaning 7.1 on output.  As explained, the 3 or 4 channel SACD recordings I have are already in 5 channel containers automatically via the ripping/extraction process.

I have DVDs and Blu-rays with 3, 5, and 7 channels stored on them. 3 channels is typically L/R/C, 5 channels doesn't use the LFE, and 7 channels is 6.1
I don't have any Blu-rays or DVDs with 4 channels, but do have a few music tracks - though not SACD. 4.0 is typically stored in a 5.0 or 5.1 container.
I'm sure that I have some 6.0 discs, but can't see an easy way to identify them without playing them one-by-one.

As I said, never really caught on, but it was out there. But my guess is that if 6.0 went to 5.1 nobody would notice.  But, if fixes for the other anomalies can be made, might as well leave in 6.0

I'm not clear on what mapping all 6 channel formats to 5.1 is supposed to fix anyway.
I just went through 25 6-channel SACDs using preview mode, and they're all treated as 5.1 by Media Center, not 6.0
I suspect this is another channel mapping issue caused by using the "Source Channels" with a DAC rather than an AVR / Sound Card.

[dtc]

I have DVDs and Blu-rays with 3, 5, and 7 channels stored on them. 3 channels is typically L/R/C, 5 channels doesn't use the LFE, and 7 channels is 6.1
I don't have any Blu-rays or DVDs with 4 channels, but do have a few music tracks - though not SACD. 4.0 is typically stored in a 5.0 or 5.1 container.
I'm sure that I have some 6.0 discs, but can't see an easy way to identify them without playing them one-by-one.
I'm not clear on what mapping all 6 channel formats to 5.1 is supposed to fix anyway.
I just went through 25 6-channel SACDs using preview mode, and they're all treated as 5.1 by Media Center, not 6.0
I suspect this is another channel mapping issue caused by using the "Source Channels" with a DAC rather than an AVR / Sound Card.

Agreed, there is no way to tell if there is an LFE channel in a file other than by convention, since the file header only has the total number of channels. The header has no information about whether or not an LFE channel is present.

From Fitzcaraldo215 comments above, it seems like Source Number of Channels of 6 for an SACD does not map to 5.1, but some other mix without an LFE.    But you say all of your 6 channel map to 5.1. So there seems to be a disconnect on that.

Mapping all 6 to 5.1 would probably fix that problem, while introducing a problem for true 6.0 files, which are quite rare.

[kr4]

I'm not sure that there is anything for Media Center to do here, because Media Center is behaving correctly.

Yes, it is behaving as intended.  I am not disputing it but, as you point out, it is not behaving appropriately in all instances for all people.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Right.  I don't really need a fix for 6=5.1 if using Source Number of Channels.  Everything in my library maps fine for me using 5.1 and 7.1 zones with Zoneswitch.  I would be happy to stay that way.

I only raised the concern because others had reported having the problem, which was fixed by just using 5.1 or 7.1 as output parameters.

It appears there might be some extremely rare, old Mch files (like fine wine!) that are six-channel 6.0 and not 5.1.  On the other hand, I suspect there are many more current JR users who are experiencing a channel misassigment between 5.0/5.1 they just do not know about while using Source Number of Channels.  The audible symptoms are sometimes subtle, as they were for me.

But, what might make the most sense as JR policy here is to leave the current mechanism alone, 6 channels = 6.0, not 5.1 output.  Perhaps, just raising awareness of the issue better and including some sort of warning text when selecting the Source Number of Channels option would be sufficient.

[RoderickGI]

Isn't this the real problem here?

This is done automatically using ZoneSwitch. However, this doesn't work if trying to playback a mixed playlist.

If ZoneSwitch worked within a Playlist, switching smoothly from Stereo to 5.1 to 4.0 to 7.1, based on good rules which may mean some additional tagging of files for the desired output channel format, wouldn't this issue just go away?

Sure, "smoothly" may be difficult. There would at least be some switching issues for the target DAC/AVR/Sound Card, so transitions and Gapless playback may suffer. But that may be a reasonable tradeoff for being able to play any and all channel formats without intervention, in one Playlist.

[Hendrik]

But, 6 is not the same as 5.1 and JRiver interprets it as a 6.0 recording with no sub channel

I don't think this is true. The default channel layout for 6 channels without any layout indication is 5.1, and I also checked the DSD input plugin just in case it might override this - it does not.

[tij]

I am not into multichannel music ... I only use multichannel for movies

But here is suggestion ... why not have extra tag for music/videos that JRiver automatically populate when importing media that describes channel mapping ... then use that tag for playback

If JRiver interpret channel mapping incorrectly ... can then manually change that tag ... since JRiver seems to interprets most multichannel correctly, changing few odd tags manually does not seems like a big chore

[mattkhan]

If ZoneSwitch worked within a Playlist, switching smoothly from Stereo to 5.1 to 4.0 to 7.1, based on good rules which may mean some additional tagging of files for the desired output channel format, wouldn't this issue just go away?

IMV anything that moves more DSP configuration into zoneswitch is a bad thing. In this case it seems the bigger change is enabling jriver to change audio device (config) on track change, once you've done that then using multiple zones seems like unnecessary overhead vs a dsp block change (like the output channel mapping via tags suggestion). It would be even better if this came alongside decoupling output format from mix target (not entirely obvious if this is directly related to this problem but is in the same ballpark at least).

[RoderickGI]

IMV anything that moves more DSP configuration into zoneswitch is a bad thing.

Well, it depends how well it works I guess.

I don't consider Zones to be physical playback zones anymore. I consider them to be Output Profiles which include the Audio Device and DSP settings. Changing the Output Profile to match the track format seems like a logical idea. Of course, it may be very difficult to do well, or even at all.

[mattkhan]

I don't consider Zones to be physical playback zones anymore.

the coupling of physical locations and configurations of those locations is the bad thing, it turns a single MC instance into something that can really only talk to one location (if you need multiple configurations for that location). I'm probably going OT for this thread though.

[dtc]

I am not into multichannel music ... I only use multichannel for movies

But here is suggestion ... why not have extra tag for music/videos that JRiver automatically populate when importing media that describes channel mapping ... then use that tag for playback

If JRiver interpret channel mapping incorrectly ... can then manually change that tag ... since JRiver seems to interprets most multichannel correctly, changing few odd tags manually does not seems like a big chore

I think all you need is a tag as to whether or not there is a LFE channel. After that the mappings are all set by convention. 

[thecrow]

I can think of at least 3 different 7.1 surround formats:

1) Left, Center, Right, Left Side, Right Side Left Rear, Right Rear and Sub
2) Left, Inner Left, Center, Inner Right, Right, Left Surround, Right Surround and Sub
3) Left Height, Left, Center, Right, Right Height, Left Surround, Right Surround and Sub

All have an LFE

[RD James]

Yes, it is behaving as intended.  I am not disputing it but, as you point out, it is not behaving appropriately in all instances for all people.

I think you're misunderstanding the problem. There is nothing for Media Center to fix; you need to select the appropriate number of output channels for your device (5.1 / 7.1) if you are using a DAC rather than an AVR or Sound Card (or an AVR/Sound Card which lacks support for formats like 4.0).
Then Media Center handles the channel mapping rather than passing it through as-is for the device to handle.

[dtc]

I can think of at least 3 different 7.1 surround formats:

1) Left, Center, Right, Left Side, Right Side Left Rear, Right Rear and Sub
2) Left, Inner Left, Center, Inner Right, Right, Left Surround, Right Surround and Sub
3) Left Height, Left, Center, Right, Right Height, Left Surround, Right Surround and Sub

All have an LFE

Pretty sure the Inner and Height channels are not typically stored in a 7.1 file.  The are usually generated within the receiver. They can be stored in a higher level file format.

Here is the normal order in a file for a 7.1 file


 1   Front Left - FL
 2   Front Right - FR
 3   Front Center - FC
 4   Low Frequency - LF
 5   Surround Left - SL
 6   Surround Right - SR
 7   Back Left - BL
 8   Back Right - BR

Note that the terms Surround (or Side) and Back sometimes get interchanged. But the 5/6 positions are for the speakers in a typically 5.1 setup and the 7/8 positions are for the additional speakers in a 7.1 setup, which are typically behind the listener.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I don't think this is true. The default channel layout for 6 channels without any layout indication is 5.1, and I also checked the DSD input plugin just in case it might override this - it does not.

I have not tested this recently.  But, I clearly had a channel mismatch problem when using Source Number of Channels when playing Mch SACDs into a USB DAC.  Kal and quite a few others here and in other forums did too.  Changing the output to 5.1 fixed it in all cases I am aware of for both 5.0 and 5.1 files.

As I said previously, I determined this by observing the instaneous channel-by-channel level indicators in my Exasound driver.  It has been awhile, and I am not sure if the problem occurred on 5.0 or 5.1 files.  I recall that one was OK and the other was not.  Note also that I was using JR bass management, which might or might not have affected the issue. Also, I was using Dirac Live DAP at the time, now VST plugin, on my PC ahead of the Exasound driver in the signal path.  It is doubtful that Dirac had an effect on channel misalignment.

I have no idea what was happening before that into an Integra prepro via HDMI, where I did not use bitstreaming but used JR bass management.  It might or might not have been the same.  But, others have reported a similar issue using Mch processors, again fixed by using 5.1 as the output parameter.  If they were doing bass management in the processor, misassigment of the sub channel might not be noticeable, since the deep bass would still be redirected to the sub by the processor's bass management.

[RD James]

I have not tested this recently.  But, I clearly had a channel mismatch problem when using Source Number of Channels when playing Mch SACDs into a USB DAC.  Kal and quite a few others here and in other forums did too.  Changing the output to 5.1 fixed it in all cases I am aware of for both 5.0 and 5.1 files.

Then the issue is that your DAC does not handle the unmapped input correctly, not that Media Center is doing anything wrong.
As I explained earlier in this topic, this is because DACs are typically 'dumb' devices that map channels 1:1 while AVRs and Sound Cards will remap channels automatically based on the input format.
Media Center will do that remapping itself if your playback device does not support it, if you select a specific output format such as 5.1 or 7.1 rather than "source channels".

[tbng]

We have gone a bit far afield from the original upgrade request that began this stream.

To reiterate:  JRiver software works exactly as I want it playing both multi- and two-channel recordings but only if I manually switch between pre-defined two-channel and 5.1 channel zones before initiating playback.  The original question remains open:  Will JRiver provide an upgrade to automate this function?

[JimH]

ZoneSwitch should do that.  Are you sure it doesn't?

If not, please start a ZoneSwitch topic.

[kr4]

I think you're misunderstanding the problem. There is nothing for Media Center to fix; you need to select the appropriate number of output channels for your device (5.1 / 7.1) if you are using a DAC rather than an AVR or Sound Card (or an AVR/Sound Card which lacks support for formats like 4.0).
Then Media Center handles the channel mapping rather than passing it through as-is for the device to handle.

I was not disputing that.

[dtc]

 1. Configured with "source number of channels," JRiver cannot and will not playback a multi-channel source but demand that the user change to a two-channel output configuration to continue.  The name implies that it functions as an automatic channel selection setting, but it does not.
 

This seems to be the issue here. I am not currently set up to test this, but do others see the same thing? That Source Number of Channels will not play back a multi-channel source?  This does not seem right to me. Could it be an HDMI issue with the Meridian HD621 HDMI interface?

[RD James]

We have gone a bit far afield from the original upgrade request that began this stream.

To reiterate:  JRiver software works exactly as I want it playing both multi- and two-channel recordings but only if I manually switch between pre-defined two-channel and 5.1 channel zones before initiating playback.  The original question remains open:  Will JRiver provide an upgrade to automate this function?

Make sure that your audio device is configured to use WASAPI Exclusive Mode when "Source Number of Channels" is selected as the output.
Then the number of channels should match the files being played.
 

ZoneSwitch should do that.  Are you sure it doesn't?

If not, please start a ZoneSwitch topic.

ZoneSwitch cannot handle mixed playlists of stereo and surround files. It creates two separate playlists.