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[AlexS]

I would really like to see improvements with "Lookup Track Info From Online Database" so it becomes more useful, much like when adding tags when ripping from CD. At present I don't find is very useful imho as almost every time it tags the wrong album (like a greatest hits album rather than the original album).

Is there any way we could have a choice of what albums to tag when we use this feature, much like when we rip a CD we are asked to select from a number of tagging options. I do appreciate there is no CD identifier available but is it not possible to show alternative records to select from (so my track does not get tagged as part of a greatest hits album for instance)?

Thanks.

[JimH]

Please don't start multiple topics on the same subject.

I think the data is the limiting factor here. 

[AlexS]

Please don't start multiple topics on the same subject.

Hi

All the threads are completely different topics.

a) One thread is about problems I had when losing tags and clip art. That thread is resolved.
b) This thread is a feature request about  "Lookup Track Info From Online Database".
c) Another is a feature request when ripping CD's and copying tag information.
d) Another is asking about third party tagging (moved into the other forum I notice).

If we start merging threads discussions about these topics are going to get lost, I'd really like to discuss the specifics rather than muddy the discussion hence I'm trying to keep these as clear separate threads.

[AlexS]

I think the data is the limiting factor here.

Back to topic...

It appears that MC23 can identify where a track comes from using "Lookup Track Info From Online Database". For instance a certain Eagles track can perhaps live on say 20 albums, but for some reason it just chooses one album and tags it accordingly.

So what is the criteria - is it just the first one that comes up in the database?

Could we not be given a choice of albums to tag (much like when we are ripping CD's?).

Thanks!

[RoderickGI]

The database used for "Lookup Track Info From Online Database" is YADB (Yet Another Database), which is a JRiver database. As far as I know it is only populated by users of MC, via the functions built into MC, either when a CD is ripped using MC, or when someone manually submits metadata. It is simple, with very simple match criteria. See https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/YADB

When a CD is ripped, most of the metadata required by MC is available on the CD in a CD-Text file¹; Track Numbers, Track Name, Album Name, Artist, Genre, etc. I think only the Cover Art comes from the internet when ripping. Could be wrong. So MC doesn't just read the CD Identifier and then look up the CD in the online database. As MC knows you are ripping a CD, obviously it isn't going to assign the tracks to multiple Albums, unlike when you are looking up a number of files as a group manually. If I do an online lookup on one Album by selecting either the Album or all the files in an Album, I often see MC assign those files to more than one Album.

If you start to rip an Album you will see what data MC finds. If you then decide to look it up online before ripping, you will see the same problems as above I believe. I did a bunch recently and found the lookup unreliable for most CDs.

So you can't get the same result using the online database as reading the metadata from the CD.


Note 1: Opinion and fact will vary as to whether CDs actually have Metadata on them. See https://theproaudiofiles.com/metadata/ and Google some more. It is my understanding that MC reads the CD-Text files if present on a CD, and displays the contents of that when ripping a CD, rather than the online database. I could be wrong. Of the 77 CDs I ripped recently, only three don't have good data in the CD database in MC (not the online database, the table inside MC,  which I believe is created when a CD is inserted for MC to analyse), and one of those three had the correct Artist, Album, Track #, and Genre, just not the correct track name. I suspect that means that 74 CDs had CD-Text files on them which had valid metadata. But I haven't looked into it in detail.

[JimH]

There is a YADB topic on our wiki:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/YADB

It checks a very large JRiver user database first.  If the disc isn't found, it checks freedb.

CD-Text is rarely found on a disc.

[jctcom]

It sounds to me like the Op is looking up a single track as opposed to a selection of tracks that belong to an album.

This being the case that single track is likely to exist in the exact same form for multiple albums.  I am guessing that MC just picks whichever album appears first in it's database.

I think you might have more luck if you know which album you want to assign the track to maybe enter that manually as well as the artist name and then try the lookup?  Haven't actually tried that yet myself as I only deal with whole albums when tagging etc...  but it might pick the info from the manually entered album rather than from the first one in the data base?

Carl.

[kr4]

I think you might have more luck if you know which album you want to assign the track to maybe enter that manually as well as the artist name and then try the lookup?  Haven't actually tried that yet myself as I only deal with whole albums when tagging etc...  but it might pick the info from the manually entered album rather than from the first one in the data base?

That has not worked for me. 

[JimH]

CD lookup and track lookup use different databases.  The CD database is excellent.  The track database is only fair.  Just the number of entries.  You can help if you want by uploading to it.

[RoderickGI]

It checks a very large JRiver user database first.  If the disc isn't found, it checks freedb.

Thanks Jim. That was the information I was missing. Although it has been mentioned many times before. Perhaps I forgot.

As that is the case, I think the manual "Lookup Track Info From Online Database" is broken, or at least inconsistent in that the Freedb is not looked up by that function. Here is the scenario I ran yesterday.

I copied the standard Audio > Albums View and restricted it to only looking at the MC CD database, which is populated by the MC CD Analysis function. It showed 78 Albums, which was correct based on the ripping I have done on my Workstation with that Library.
I inserted a CD that my Workstation Library has never seen before; "The Waifs, Up All Night". This CD didn't previously show up in my modified View. I didn't rip it, just inserted it.
The modified View now showed 79 CDs, and it had the correct metadata for the new CD, including Artist, Album, Track Name, Genre, and Track #s. The file names were shown as Track01.cda etc.
I right clicked on the new Album, "The Waifs, Up All Night", in the View, and selected "Lookup Track Info From Online Database", then answered "Yes" to the confirmation question.
MC did a search then came back with the message "No information was found for these files".

I thought at first that this meant that MC must have read a CD-Text file on the CD, so I searched for some programs that would show me the CD-Text file contents, or at least confirm that there was such a file on the CD. I tried three or four, including MediaInfo and EAC. None found a CD-Text file. I also tried to find a CD-Text file on other CDs that had previously been ripped on my Workstation, and had received the correct metadata. None of them had a CD-Text file.

So now my conclusion is that when a CD is inserted and MC does its optical disc analysis, which is occasionally shown in a popup message from MC, and is a precursor to ripping a CD, MC looks up YADB and if it doesn't find the CD it looks up Freedb. However, when manually running "Lookup Track Info From Online Database", only YADB is looked up. Freedb is not.

Is that by design, or an oversight? All the messages during lookup only mention YADB, but it would seem to make sense to look up the Freedb as well. It would even make sense to offer to reinstate the metadata from the CD database in MC, if not found elsewhere. Although that would normally be the same as what is in YADB or Freedb.

Could someone look at that? I did notice it when ripping all those CDs recently but didn't figure out what was going on. Now I think I understand.

PS: Okay, this is new information again. Or at least has new implications. Timely post Jim, as I was still typing.

CD lookup and track lookup use different databases.  The CD database is excellent.  The track database is only fair.  Just the number of entries.  You can help if you want by uploading to it.

So does that mean that the "Lookup Track Info From Online Database" literally only looks up the tracks selected, even if a whole Album is selected as I did in my test?
If so, isn't that an oversight? Should MC look up the YADB CD database first, then either the YADB Track database or the Freedb, or perhaps the Freedb before the YADB Track database, particularly if the Track database is only fair?

Matching a track is a lot harder than matching a full CD of tracks, and really requires using an AcousticID or similar technology. When I ripped some home made compilation CDs I used Shazam on my Android phone to identify some of the tracks, and it performed extremely well.

Once I have inserted a disc and the MC CD database is populated there isn't an obvious way to refresh the metadata, say if the Freedb is updated, without reinserting the CD.
Also once the CD has been ripped, if its metadata is updated either by the "Lookup Track Info From Online Database" function, or manually, there is no way of refreshing the metadata from the Freedb, or from the YADB CD database, rather than the YADB Track database. Other than doing a Ctrl-Z immediately after the "Lookup Track Info From Online Database" function to undo any changes. The "Lookup Track Info From Online Database" function always uses the YADB Track database.

However, when I insert the CD again, and go to "Drive & Devices > The CD Drive (titled "The Waifs_ Up All Night" in my example) > Click the 'Update from Online Database'", then the correct metadata is refreshed, either from the YADB CD database or from the Freedb. I can't tell which without more work, watching which websites MC looks up. Not doing that now. I understand when using this particular button that MC knows that it is looking at a CD, and so can look up the YADB CD database, but the difference to the "Lookup Track Info From Online Database" function seems inconsistent to me.

So basically, the workflow for getting metadata for CDs, other than when ripping a CD the first time it is seen, is a little lacking, don't you think?


Sorry. Long detailed post. Again.

[AlexS]

Back to topic...

It appears that MC23 can identify where a track comes from using "Lookup Track Info From Online Database". For instance a certain Eagles track can perhaps live on say 20 albums, but for some reason it just chooses one album and tags it accordingly.

So what is the criteria - is it just the first one that comes up in the database?

Could we not be given a choice of albums to tag (much like when we are ripping CD's?).

Thanks!

I've been away sorry and would like to continue the conversation.

I would still like to know, what happens if there are multiple entries in the database that match? (See quote).

From my perspective it is coming up with just the first entry in the database.

What is needed is being given a choice of available matches. The track may belong to a greatest hits album, then again it may belong to the original album it was first released on. We can't pick and choose which album it is (even if the data is available for both albums).

[RoderickGI]

I would still like to know, what happens if there are multiple entries in the database that match? (See quote).

MC uses Acoustic Fingerprints to match tracks, so it will find the right track if it knows about it. But as you say, if the same version of a track is found on multiple albums, MC just seems to pick one. Probably the first one.

That is why I use MusicBrainz Picard to do track level matching. It gives you the choice, sometimes too much choice, as to which album or source the track comes from.

[AlexS]

MC uses Acoustic Fingerprints to match tracks, so it will find the right track if it knows about it. But as you say, if the same version of a track is found on multiple albums, MC just seems to pick one. Probably the first one.

That is why I use MusicBrainz Picard to do track level matching. It gives you the choice, sometimes too much choice, as to which album or source the track comes from.

Thanks for getting this. I'll check that out your suggestion... thanks.

How can I make this an enhancement request for MC24? (Be able to select the correct album manually).

[tyler69]

Is JRiver able to use Discogs as a lookup library? For foobar, there is a nifty plugin that can be customized to one's needs in filling out tags. Discogs has lots of albums and lots of album versions maintained.

[kr4]

I figured that I would put in my $0.02 about "Lookup Track Info From Online Database" in this thread.  It has never worked at all for me.  As associated info, I listen almost exclusively to classical music and overwhelmingly to multichannel recordings.  Also, I try, as much as possible, to get metadata during ripping and downloading prior to putting the album into my MC library, so I am asking MC to address the most difficult tasks.  That said, it has never provided anything of use, not even a single track.

[JimH]

The tracks may not exist in the database.

Try uploading a few.  Then copy one or two to a new location, remove their tags, then test.  It should work.

[kr4]

The tracks may not exist in the database.

Ya think?

[JimH]

Kal,
The database is filled by users.  If you don't find it, it only means that nobody has uploaded it.  It's not a well known feature, so the data isn't nearly as good as the CD database.

So go fill it up!

Jim

[kr4]

Kal,
The database is filled by users.  If you don't find it, it only means that nobody has uploaded it.  It's not a well known feature, so the data isn't nearly as good as the CD database.

So go fill it up!

Jim

A bit late.  I have thousands of ripped/downloaded albums and, with friends, spent a lot of time entering metadata.  Let me suggest that you edit the pop-up that tells the user that says "No information was found for this file" to something that suggests contributing to YADB. 

Still, the inadequacy of YADB is not encouraging and access to other DBs would be greatly appreciated.

[JimH]

When ripping, MC checks the database of YADB first.  Then FreeDB. 

I don't think there is any way to use our audio fingerprinting to check any database other than ours (YADB).

[kr4]

When ripping, MC checks the database of YADB first.  Then FreeDB.

Yeah but it doesn't rip SACDs, DVDs, DVD-As or BluRays, to say nothing of downloads.

[JimH]

Yeah but it doesn't rip SACDs, DVDs, DVD-As or BluRays, to say nothing of downloads.

It can do DVD's and Blu-rays.

[timwtheov]

To tyler69 and anyone else here: there's always MCUtils, which has amg.pl and discogs.pl, i.e., perl-based utilities that will search AllMusic and Discogs. There's a bit of a learning curve, and it is a little slow in that it's album based (meaning you have to run separate searches for each album; and if you have a lot of classical music, like I have, both sites are kind of spotty, though AllMusic is better, even if box sets are really hit or miss; anyway--), but once you get it set up: wow! I use it everyday now.

MCUtils has a lot of other great utilities for tagging, too. Here's a thread with the relevant info.: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=100449.0

[timwtheov]

I attached a screen shot of my main amg.pl-based (AllMusic; I don't use Discogs at all) Rock view (i.e., non-classical, non-jazz, non-blues, etc.).

Most of the meta-data you see is automatically put into the appropriate fields, so long as they're mapped properly on the MCUtils custom.config text file (I change almost none of the default mappings, but I did create quite a few custom fields to accommodate particular AllMusic data you can get, like "Styles" or "Moods" for example). I do hand-enter some things and then update new files using Pane Tagging (like [AMG Artist Biography], for example), and I also have a few expression-based custom fields that simplify filling some other fields via the Move and Copy tool, but again most of what you see is garnered from a couple of clicks using amg.pl (and there's a lot of other data you DON'T see under "All Fields").

[kr4]

It can do DVD's and Blu-rays.

Not well for DVD-As or BDAs.  It does not parse the audio into tracks, as far as I can tell.  Am I missing something?

[AlexS]

Back to topic...

It appears that MC23 can identify where a track comes from using "Lookup Track Info From Online Database". For instance a certain Eagles track can perhaps live on say 20 albums, but for some reason it just chooses one album and tags it accordingly.

So what is the criteria - is it just the first one that comes up in the database?

Could we not be given a choice of albums to tag (much like when we are ripping CD's?).

Thanks!

I would still like to know, what happens if there are multiple entries in the database that match? (See quote).

From my perspective it is coming up with just the first entry in the database.

What is needed is being given a choice of available matches. The track may belong to a greatest hits album, then again it may belong to the original album it was first released on. We can't pick and choose which album it is (even if the data is available for both albums).

MC uses Acoustic Fingerprints to match tracks, so it will find the right track if it knows about it.But as you say, if the same version of a track is found on multiple albums, MC just seems to pick one. Probably the first one.

That is why I use MusicBrainz Picard to do track level matching. It gives you the choice, sometimes too much choice, as to which album or source the track comes from.

Thanks for getting this. I'll check that out your suggestion... thanks.

How can I make this an enhancement request for MC24? (Be able to select the correct album manually).

Back to Topic...
Asking again...

Thanks..