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[TheShoe]

Hendrik,

any thoughts on the latest atmos audio dropouts ?

cheers

[Hendrik]

Its one disc only. Haven't you finished watching it by now?
There is likely nothing I can do.

[TheShoe]

The Predator was also reported.   will have to check that out.  have not watched it yet 😉

[jmone]

After more testing, it seems that the drop outs are around the seamless branching sections.  Does not matter what you use to demux it, if it is based on ffmpeg you get the issue.

[rec head]

How good is the BD Menus!     I got a UHD BD of Westworld Season 2 and these discs are a pain to work out what MPLS = What Eps as they don't seem to follow any order that makes senses.  Not to worry, as fired each disc up with Menu Support, and using the BD Pop Up Menu selected each eps and noted down the Duration in the MC Playback Header.  When I then created the BD Particles it was easy to tag each one with the correct EPS # then do a Lookup of the TV Info.  Job done and it the correct order!  Love it!

I have been a MakeMKV guy for a long time and finding the correct MPLS can be a pain. Can you please explain how this works for someone who never opens discs in MC? I know I would need external software like Anydvd to open the disc. If this is easy enough it may be worth the price.

Thanks

[jmone]

Actually, since you have MakeMKV you could rip the disc to a folder and play/import/tag the folder structure once it has finished.  Both AnyDVD / DeUHD work as a driver so they both present the disc to the OS as unencrypted (and hence you can play/import/tag directly from the MC GUI from the BD in the Drive). 

Anyway, regardless of the tool - here is the easiest way (there are others) - see pic:
1) Import (or Rip) the disc into MC
2) Right Click --> Stacks --> Advanced --> Auto Create BD/DVD Title Particles : This will create an entry in MC for every single MPLS on the disc
3) Play the Item you originally imported and then use the Pop Up Menu to access the Episodes and select one (in this case I selected EPS 4).  Note in the MC Playbar at the top it is now saying it is 1:10:40 long.  If you look at the created Particles, you can see the "Westworld Season2 Disc1 - Title1" is the correct MPLS (and it is MPLS #00112). 
4) Tag all the Particles with the correct Season / Episode and do a "Get Movie and TV Info" and MC will grab all the metadata and name them correctly.  Delete the Particles you are not using (eg all the little 24 sec ones).

Enjoy.

[jmone]

The other option is to use the Log File (good if there are playlists with exactly the same time duration)
- Play the BD in MC and select your EPS and while it is playing
- Search from the Bottom of the Log file up for (PLAYLIST, and you will find an entry like

1115063: 5704: Playback: CBDNavDemux::BDLog: libbluray/bdj/bdj.c:1034: bdj_process_event(PLAYLIST,112)

- Rinse and Repeat for the others.

the 112 is the MPLS #

[jmone]

@Hendrik if you are opening the code for this at any point it would be great to include in the Menu/OSD what MPLS is being used (like with Title Playback but not for selecting playback, just for Info)
Thanks
Nathan

[rec head]

Hendrik , that would be super awesome. Worth the price of the upgrade to 25 for me since I barely understand the help I'm being given. It will probably make more sense once I play with it a little.

[TheShoe]

@Hendrik if you are opening the code for this at any point it would be great to include in the Menu/OSD what MPLS is being used (like with Title Playback but not for selecting playback, just for Info)
Thanks
Nathan

+1

this would be helpful and convenient!

[Hendrik]

Retested using a Folder Rip. 
- The 3:16 Drop out Only happens when Bitstreaming and happens in both Title and Menu mode. 
- There is No 3:16 Drop out in either Title or Menu mode when Decoding.

I tried to reproduce this, but I don't have an Atmos AVR, and on my ordinary TrueHD AVR there is no drop outs here.
I can also not spot any obvious problems in the data flow around those times. I would imagine a fundamental problem *should* also show up with normal TrueHD bitstreaming, so who knows whats wrong there.

TrueHD bitstreaming, especially with Atmos in the mix, is still a black box. That I managed to resolve the issues with high-bitrate UHD TrueHD tracks earlier was already pushing the limits of the informaiton that are available about the process.
Without at least access to hardware showing the issue, or a full specification of how its supposed to work, there is probably nothing I can do.

Maybe in a year or two, if I should decide to invest in a new AVR, and proper HDMI 2.1 models become available.

Edit:
I did some simplifications and cleanup in LAV Audio, and I think there might have been a small corner case that might have been fixed by this. I'm not 100% sure since the dataflow is rather complex, and I could never reproduce the problem in the first place.

Anyhow, if anyone with an Atmos receiver feels like testing, grab the next LAV nightly that should show up at around 3:00 AM CET at https://files.1f0.de/lavf/nightly/ (you're looking for 0.73.1-1)

[jmone]

Thanks for looking but unfortunately, no cigar.  Still get it.  It really is not a "Hard Drop Out" like we used to have, in that the AVR is still reporting that it is getting an audio stream but instead it is a short silence.  This happens at the point of the seamless branching where at 3:16 it goes from the interrogation scene to the rotating Incredibles logo (which can be in a few different lang).  It's almost like there is a timestamp issue at the seamless branching point.... but, what gets me, is that if you do a seek after passing 3:16 to before 3:16 there is no issue as you pass 3:16 again. 

[SamuriHL]

Yup, that's exactly right.  And I don't understand it cause the symptoms are different with non-LAV solutions like the SHIELD.  It gradually gets out of sync.  So there definitely seems to be some kind of seamless branching issue but no idea how we can fix it as every single ripping tool shows the same issue.

[jmone]

FYI - I went back and tested using "LAVFilters-0.71.0-35" from May 2018 (I think this was before the hard drop out fix but post much of the UHD support work).  Good news is that this version works fine on Incredibles 2 (but of course will have the hard drop outs with other titles) but it may help track down the issue.

[Hendrik]

Did you ever test the Windows 10 "Films & TV" app to play back this title? Possibly need to try it with a MKV rip, since it cannot play Blu-ray discs.
It supports bitstreaming TrueHD from what I can tell, as long as the HDMI out is the default output in Windows.

If it works, maybe I can figure out how it works.

[jmone]

I'm away for a few days with work - but can test when I'm back.

[Hendrik]

I'll be on vacation next week, but knowing if that works or not would be good. I already know which component that app uses to wrap the audio stream, so if its positive it would just be a matter of capturing its output and seeing what happens differently.

As a bonus, maybe also try one of those videos that had the hard dropout with earlier LAV versions, just to make sure we're not trading one for the other again.

[SamuriHL]

I'll give it a try this afternoon and see what happens.  I've got an MKV of Incredibles 2 I can try it on.

[SamuriHL]

As usual, your instincts are correct.  Playback works with the movies and tv app.  No dropouts and it's bitstreaming ATMOS.  Will this maybe help us?  This is with the problematic Incredibles 2 UHD rip.

[Hendrik]

Sounds good. I actually found a few differences in the logic, and actually also found a few bugs that resulted in a wrong output in some cases, primarily at branching points.
Hopefully it'll help. It'll be in the next LAV nightly, same time as before. ~3h from this post.

I haven't had time to do a long-term test for sync yet or such things, but since the generated output stream is now identical with the MS component (well, at least the first 10 minutes, which is already almost 2GB of data, sure is a lot of data going through HDMI just for audio), hopefully that won't be a problem.

[SamuriHL]

I can probably run a whole movie (I think Incredibles 2 would be a great test) tomorrow night to test it and see if any other issues crop up.  This sounds promising though!

[jmone]

Sounds very good (esp the bit on the differences at the branching point)!  I'll be able to test both I2 (current issue) and POTC (old issue to see if there is any regression) ... later this week.

[SamuriHL]

I'll be testing later tonight.  I already have installed. 

[SamuriHL]

Fantastic!  So far no issues at all.  I will have to watch it start to finish tomorrow but I've played it through scenes that were definitely problematic before with nary an issue at all!  Thanks for the fix!!!!

EDIT:  I let it play past the scene that usually gives me sync issues, even with my SHIELD, and surprise.....it's flawless.  This is great!!!

[jmone]

   great news!  I'm not sure how many more time I could watch the first 3:16sec of I2 without losing my mind.

[Hendrik]

Great! Sometimes having something to compare to is all you need to find your bugs. Luckily Microsoft had a Media Foundation Transform that I could just use and dump its output into a file, and that it occured to me to actually check for it.
Also because the base logic LAV was using was fine, there were only two bugs in it, being traced back to faulty assumptions made about what could possibly happen.

Now back to other Blu-ray topics!

[TheShoe]

thanks Hendrik!

will this appear with an update to MC24 or should we just update lav?

cheers

[Hendrik]

I doubt we'll be updating LAV in MC24 at this point. It'll probably be a while until the LAV release as well.

[SamuriHL]

As promised I've been watching the whole Incredibles 2.  I want to warn people on this because I had re-ripped it with MakeMKV (vs CloneBD/AnyDVD originally) and my results are different.  I'm getting SMALL drops here and there but nothing like before.  I did not see the same results when testing my CloneBD rip (and the sizes are different).  I consider the ATMOS playback issue fixed and that we have some ripping issues still but others may want to test their rips and see what they get for results.  Sync stayed throughout the movie even after the small drops.  Personally, I'm good with the nightly fix.  Thanks again!

[jmone]

Tested the following historic probs with hard/soft drops and they all played fine with the latest LAV Nightly (all folder rips).
- "Incredibles 2" - Soft Drop : eg drops at 3:16 at the seamless branching point where it goes to the Incredibles 2 spinning logo
- “Pirates of the Caribbean - Dead Men Tell No Tales” - Hard Drop : eg drops out a couple of times between 17:45 and 19:00 minutes into the movie
- “Guardians of the Galaxy Vol II” - Hard Drop : eg drops out at 1:09:24 where TaserFace gets killed is one example.
- “Maze Runner: The Death Cure” - Hard Drop : eg Right at the beginning of the Main Title when the 20th Century clip is running

Thanks Hendrik - looks good to me.

[jmone]

Now back to other Blu-ray topics!

Scratching my head to come up with a list of stuff still to do (you have done a great job!).
- BD Menu support is 99% perfect, including UHD.  About the only thing that fails is the odd "stalls after initial language selection on first play" and I see you have that raised already with Jean-Baptiste. 
- HDR Menus:  I saw some comments on this but I've not noticed any issue personally. 
- On the MC UI front, seeing the MPLS being used would be handy
- The default logic on some BD's don't default to the "best" audio track (oddly), I don't know how MC/LAV would go in overriding this like with file based playback (minor issue really).

[TheShoe]

fwiw, i can also confirm the nightly build for LAV resolved all audio issues for me as well. 

thanks!

[Hendrik]

About the only thing that fails is the odd "stalls after initial language selection on first play"

This should be resolved in MC25 soon.

Trying to figure out HDR menus now, so they get tonemapped and potentially converted to SDR if needed. Unfortunately I don't have a HDR screen yet, so some combinations are harder to test.
Right now HDR menus are always in HDR, which is probably "OK" if you use HDR pass-through to a HDR TV. But if you use a SDR TV, or want to benefit from madVR tonemapping, it won't be correct.

[TheShoe]

Hendrik,

Do you think it will be possible to have menu playback stop point remembered when resuming later?

-Frank

[Hendrik]

Only if the disc itself implements such a feature to resume playback. The Java state etc is way too complex to save otherwise.

[If6was9]

I wanted to report, that the calibration disk "Ted's lightspace CMS calibration disk", still does not read the menu. It is a very important disc, and without access to the menu it is impossible to use. 

[Hendrik]

I wanted to report, that the calibration disk "Ted's lightspace CMS calibration disk", still does not read the menu. It is a very important disc, and without access to the menu it is impossible to use. 

I only have access to the free version, but I can already tell you that at least this disc has authoring errors, that result in it being unplayable.

If you're running on a PC anyway, pattern sources are not hard to find, and I personally wouldn't use some Blu-ray variant, but instead a dedicated pattern generator application.
Those Blu-ray variants only have a value if you're actually trying to calibrate a hardware Blu-ray player which cannot play anything else.

[If6was9]

I only have access to the free version, but I can already tell you that at least this disc has authoring errors, that result in it being unplayable.

If you're running on a PC anyway, pattern sources are not hard to find, and I personally wouldn't use some Blu-ray variant, but instead a dedicated pattern generator application.
Those Blu-ray variants only have a value if you're actually trying to calibrate a hardware Blu-ray player which cannot play anything else.

I use this disk because it works automatically with the Lightspace CMS calibration software, together with click they create a 3dlut. Unfortunately so far it only works with Powerdvd and Totalmedia Theatre players

[Spanker]

Hi,

in my first attempt to use the Blu-ray Menu in MC24 I have run into a few problems with the Star Trek Discovery Season1 Discs, EU edition.

The problems are: when the index is started a CBS logo gets played but after that a black screen remains, using Disc Menu or Popup Menu doesnt provoke any action.
Secondly, MC24 considers all the episodes on a disc as 1 file, so I have no way of manually indicating the separate episodes as a work-around, unless I create particles.
Strangely, to me anyway, all the extra's remain separate files in MC24 and the episodes (like the extra's) are ripped as separate MTS2 files.

The problems are the same for all discs, which I ripped with MakeMKV (backup function, decoded files)

I managed to get the Blu-ray menu working with other discs, I'm using MC24.0.75, convolution, Bluray menu is on.
I have tried rebooting, ROHQ -> RO, removing plugin folders and I have used the automatic stacking option.
Switching to title playback works.

Is there more that I could try? Overseeing something or doing something wrong?
Thnx in advance

[Hendrik]

Unfortunately we can't test every disc, so it'll happen that some discs don't play. But if you report them here, I'll try to have a look if I have access to it, or can acquire it.
This more often happens with newer discs, for obvious reasons, since they didn't have much time yet to be tested. :-)

In any case, I'll try to see whats up with that particular disc.

[Spanker]

Thank you Hendrik, I understand. It is somewhat reassuring that I didn't overlook the obvious :-)

Any particular thoughts on the unintended merging of episodes? I can live with it, but like to understand what's happening and didn't find any other reports about it.

[Hendrik]

Its certainly possible that they use one big m2ts file for all episodes. You should however be able to pick the proper MPLS playlist files and play those to get seperate episodes, I would hope, instead of trying to play the m2ts directly.

As an alternative, you can always rip to MKV with MakeMKV, which should seperate into distinct episodes as well.

[If6was9]

I also have problems with the menu of some discs.

But isn't it possible to implement BD Menu support, like DVDFab Player (or Pwerdvd), which reads everything?

[Hendrik]

I can only repeat what I said above. We cannot test every disc, which means that some may not work, but in our experience the vast majority of discs does actually work just fine.
If you encounter one that doesn't work at all, you can report it here, and we will see if there is something we can do about that. Thats the only way its going to get better. But we cannot give any guarantees, since our development time is limited, and there is more discs out there then we could ever test.

But as far as I know, we're the only player that offers advanced features like our full Audio DSP and advanced video rendering through madVR in conjunction with any Blu-ray Menus at all. The downside of that is that not every disc may work, although we strive to do the best we can. But if 100% of discs working is more important then anything else, thats unfortunately not something we will ever be able to provide.

Comparing to other applications that work entirely differently is not going to help.

[If6was9]

The discs that don't work, are all important disks used to calibrate or fine-tune the video system:
the Ted Lighspace Calibration Disc, Spears & Mounsil, and even the AVSHD disc doesn't work perfectly.
Now if they work perfectly with DVDFab player and Powerdvd, why isn't it possible here?

That said, no one questions the other qualities of JR

[jmone]

I've tested over 1,000 BD and UHD BD discs (commercial releases) and with the latest release of MC25 I've got 100% success rate..  That said, I don't have the discs you mention.  As Hendrik posted, please list the discs and what the issues you see so support can be improved. 

[Hendrik]

As mentioned the last time, the majority of those calibration discs have MP4 alternatives which don't need to rely on a menu. That method would be way easier.
Therefor, its not a priority for me to try to figure out why they don't work, since the alternative is working just fine.

[tylerk98]

I've tested over 1,000 BD and UHD BD discs (commercial releases) and with the latest release of MC25 I've got 100% success rate..  That said, I don't have the discs you mention.  As Hendrik posted, please list the discs and what the issues you see so support can be improved.

Have you tested either the US or UK release of Top Gun Blu Ray or Seasons 3 or 4 of the US or UK Homeland Blu Ray series? I could not get any of those discs to work with menus.

Thanks!

[jmone]

Had a look at my version of BD Top Gun (ripped in 2012) and it does play just fine but it has no menu at all (either Main or Pop Up) so I'm guessing it is a very different disc.  It is also only 18.8GB so is a pretty poor quality encode (and looks it!).  I don't have Homeland at the moment to check.

[tylerk98]

Had a look at my version of BD Top Gun (ripped in 2012) and it does play just fine but it has no menu at all (either Main or Pop Up) so I'm guessing it is a very different disc.  It is also only 18.8GB so is a pretty poor quality encode (and looks it!).  I don't have Homeland at the moment to check.

Hi,

Thanks much for the response. Both my U.S. and UK versions work no problem with Powerdvd but I have had no joy getting the Java menus to work in JRiver.