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[hoyt]

Has something changed recently with the DLNA behavior?  I don't often do this, but I happened to be by my Google Home today and played something from MC to the BubbleUPnP zone I have.  It now only plays one track and stops.  I tried changing all of the different options, and am getting the same behavior regardless of what I change.  Eventually MC will say "there was a problem controlling the device" and if I click ok, I hear the Google Home go "beep beep" and start playing the next track.  If I watch the time bar it will go from say 3:59/4:00 on a 4 minute track to saying 4:15/4:00, etc. 

Thanks.

[hoyt]

I just went and looked at old change logs - it looks like a ton changed in .90....  Is anyone else having issues with Bubble UPnP after this?  I'm about to downgrade and see if the normal behavior returns.

[hoyt]

Downgrading to .89 didn't seem to make a difference.  It does however go from 3:59/4:00 to 0:00/ 4:00 when it's done playing a 4 minute track.

[hoyt]

Downgrading to .70 did the trick.  I just randomly picked a number less than .89.  I'll start working my way up the versions to help figure out what is throwing this off. 

[hoyt]

I have determined that this broke somewhere between .84 and .87.  (.84 works for me, .87 does not, there's nothing between those two to download from here: http://files.jriver.com/mediacenter/channels/v23/latest/).

Oddly enough .87 actually cuts off the last 3 or 4 seconds of a track, and then doesn't go to the next one.  Here's the link with the changes described for those releases:

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,113497.msg784522.html#msg784522

For now I've rolled my server back to .84.  Thanks!

[hoyt]

Is no one else using BubbleUPnP regularly?  Or is it working fine with you post .84?  Thanks!

[mattkhan]

what does the jriver log say?

[mattkhan]

I tried this myself (as I've recently been setting this up here) and couldn't get it to work. The whitebear mediarenderer analyser does find it and can play to it and other software can play to it to. Using jriver does not however so I enabled logging on bubbleupnp and it says

Code: [Select]

[cling-388 (476)             ] INFO     - 2:49:24.305    - b                           : Kitchen: setAVTransportURI: uri=m01p://xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:yyyyy/MCWS/v1/File/GetFile?File=780387, metadata=<DIDL-Lite xmlns="urn:schemas-upnp-org:metadata-1-0/DIDL-Lite/" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:upnp="urn:schemas-upnp-org:metadata-1-0/upnp/" xmlns:dlna="urn:schemas-dlna-org:device-1-0" xmlns:av="urn:schemas-sony-com:av" xmlns:pv="http://www.pv.com/pvns/" xmlns:jriver="urn:schemas-jriver-com:jriver">
<item id="F780387" parentID="0" restricted="1">
<dc:title>SPRORGNSM</dc:title>
<upnp:class>object.item.audioItem.musicTrack</upnp:class>
<upnp:artist>Superorganism</upnp:artist>
<upnp:artist role="Performer">Superorganism</upnp:artist>
<upnp:artist role="AlbumArtist">Superorganism</upnp:artist>
<dc:creator>Superorganism</dc:creator>
<upnp:album>Superorganism</upnp:album>
<upnp:genre>Pop</upnp:genre>
<upnp:originalTrackNumber>5</upnp:originalTrackNumber>
<upnp:playbackCount>5</upnp:playbackCount>
<jriver:volumelevel>-15.64495</jriver:volumelevel>
<jriver:peaklevel>+1.8 dBTP; +1.8 Left; +1.8 Right</jriver:peaklevel>
<dc:date>2018-01-01T00:00:00</dc:date>
<pv:playcount>5</pv:playcount>
<pv:lastPlayedTime>2018-03-10T14:58:11</pv:lastPlayedTime>
<pv:addedTime>1520187554</pv:addedTime>
<pv:modificationTime>1520188075</pv:modificationTime>
<res protocolInfo="http-get:*:audio/x-flac:DLNA.ORG_PN=FLAC;DLNA.ORG_OP=00;DLNA.ORG_CI=0;DLNA.ORG_FLAGS=0F700000000000000000000000000000" size="-1">m01p://xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:yyyyy/MCWS/v1/File/GetFile?File=780387</res>
</item>
</DIDL-Lite>

[cling-388 (476)             ] WARNING  - 2:49:24.306    - DIDLItem                    : skipping unsupported resource: m01p://xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:yyyyy/MCWS/v1/File/GetFile?File=780387
[cling-388 (476)             ] WARNING  - 2:49:24.306    - DIDLItem                    : item has no resource: SPRORGNSM
[cling-388 (476)             ] WARNING  - 2:49:24.306    - m                           : failed to get headers: m01p://xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:yyyyy/MCWS/v1/File/GetFile?File=780387: com.bubblesoft.a.a.a.b.f
[cling-388 (476)             ] WARNING  - 2:49:24.306    - b                           : Kitchen: failed to get mime-type from Content-Type header: com.bubblesoft.a.a.a.b.f
[cling-388 (476)             ] INFO     - 2:49:24.306    - b                           : Kitchen: mime-type: null
[cling-388 (476)             ] INFO     - 2:49:24.329    - b                           : Kitchen: stop()

the use of m01p as a protocol looks odd, I thought that was the internal (MC to MC) protocol.

can you repeat using a working version of MC and see what bubbleupnp reports?

[hoyt]

what does the jriver log say?

Good point.  I'm attaching two logs, one from v .84 where it successfully goes to the next track, and one from v .102 where it does not.  I played the same song with both that was short so I could get to the problem quickly.  The track name to search for is Pantala Naga Pampa, 40 seconds, and the next track is Rapunzel.

I see this in .102:

Code: [Select]

0048968: 10696: Playback: CPlayerZoneDisplayInfo::UpdateFileInfo: Playback state is PLAYING but GetPosition is returning 0. Estimated = 41594, Returned = 0
0048968: 10696: Playback: CPlayerZoneDisplayInfo::UpdateFileInfo: Refreshing DLNA device state Position 41594, Duration 40000

In the .84 log, I see nothing showing DLNA device state position, but you can see on .102 that it's "playing" past the length of the file.  The track actually stops playing about 4 seconds before the end of the track on .102, meaning the music cuts out early on the Google Home.  I'm thinking that's this line in the log:

Code: [Select]

0047047: 10696: Playback: CPlayerZoneDisplayInfo::UpdateFileInfo: Playback state is PLAYING but GetPosition is returning 0. Estimated = 37515, Returned = 0
0047047: 10696: Playback: CPlayerZoneDisplayInfo::UpdateFileInfo: Refreshing DLNA device state Position 37515, Duration 40000

Thanks!

[mattkhan]

my previous log was from a client running a dlna server, repeating from the server showed normal playback and it did continue through a couple of tracks without issue so I can't reproduce your issue.

I am using an early MC24 build though albeit the release notes don't indicate any dlna changes.

[hoyt]

This is what I'm getting in the BubbleUPnP logs:

v .103:

Code: [Select]

[cling-30 (378052)           ] INFO     - 0:01:23.140    - b                           : Kitchen Home: Current state is: PLAYING, changing to new state: STOPPED
[CastSocketRead (378065)     ] INFO     - 0:01:23.175    - b                           : Kitchen Home: player state: IDLE
[CastSocketRead (378065)     ] INFO     - 0:01:23.177    - b                           : Kitchen Home: stopped get current time task
[CastSocketRead (378065)     ] INFO     - 0:01:23.179    - b                           : Kitchen Home: Current state is: STOPPED, changing to new state: STOPPED
[cling-30 (378052)           ] INFO     - 0:01:28.530    - b                           : Kitchen Home: setAVTransportURI: uri=http://192.168.2.101:52100/Music/F990667.mp3, metadata=<DIDL-Lite xmlns="urn:schemas-upnp-org:metadata-1-0/DIDL-Lite/" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:upnp="urn:schemas-upnp-org:metadata-1-0/upnp/" xmlns:dlna="urn:schemas-dlna-org:device-1-0" xmlns:av="urn:schemas-sony-com:av" xmlns:pv="http://www.pv.com/pvns/" xmlns:jriver="urn:schemas-jriver-com:jriver">
<item id="F990667" parentID="0" restricted="1">
<dc:title>Pantala Naga Pampa</dc:title>
<upnp:class>object.item.audioItem.musicTrack</upnp:class>
<upnp:artist>Dave Matthews Band</upnp:artist>
<upnp:artist role="Performer">Dave Matthews Band</upnp:artist>
<upnp:artist role="AlbumArtist">Dave Matthews Band</upnp:artist>
<dc:creator>Dave Matthews Band</dc:creator>
<upnp:album>Before These Crowded Streets</upnp:album>
<upnp:genre>Alternative Rock</upnp:genre>
<upnp:originalTrackNumber>1</upnp:originalTrackNumber>
<upnp:playbackCount>21</upnp:playbackCount>
<dc:date>1998-01-01T00:00:00</dc:date>
<pv:playcount>21</pv:playcount>
<pv:lastPlayedTime>2018-03-10T16:55:10</pv:lastPlayedTime>
<pv:addedTime>1379179196</pv:addedTime>
<pv:modificationTime>1430790655</pv:modificationTime>
<upnp:albumArtURI dlna:profileID="JPEG_LRG">http://192.168.2.101:52100/AArl/990667.jpg</upnp:albumArtURI>
<upnp:albumArtURI dlna:profileID="JPEG_MED">http://192.168.2.101:52100/AArm/990667.jpg</upnp:albumArtURI>
<upnp:albumArtURI dlna:profileID="JPEG_SM">http://192.168.2.101:52100/AArs/990667.jpg</upnp:albumArtURI>
<upnp:albumArtURI dlna:profileID="JPEG_TN">http://192.168.2.101:52100/AArt/990667.jpg</upnp:albumArtURI>
<res protocolInfo="http-get:*:audio/mpeg:DLNA.ORG_PN=MP3;DLNA.ORG_OP=01;DLNA.ORG_CI=0;DLNA.ORG_FLAGS=01700000000000000000000000000000" duration="0:00:40.000" size="1791435" nrAudioChannels="2" sampleFrequency="44100" bitsPerSample="16">http://192.168.2.101:52100/Music/F990667.mp3</res>
</item>
</DIDL-Lite>

[cling-30 (378052)           ] INFO     - 0:01:28.546    - b                           : Kitchen Home: got mime-type from protocolInfo
[cling-30 (378052)           ] INFO     - 0:01:28.548    - b                           : Kitchen Home: mime-type: audio/mpeg
[cling-30 (378052)           ] INFO     - 0:01:28.550    - b                           : Kitchen Home: should proxy: false
[cling-30 (378052)           ] INFO     - 0:01:28.575    - b                           : Kitchen Home: play()
[cling-30 (378052)           ] INFO     - 0:01:28.577    - b                           : Kitchen Home: loading url=http://192.168.2.101:52100/Music/F990667.mp3 metadata={songName=Pantala Naga Pampa, albumName=Before These Crowded Streets, images=[{url=http://192.168.2.101:52100/AArl/990667.jpg}], trackNumber=1, artist=Dave Matthews Band, releaseDate=1998-01-01, albumArtist=Dave Matthews Band, title=Pantala Naga Pampa, metadataType=3}...
[CastSocketRead (378065)     ] INFO     - 0:01:28.599    - b                           : Kitchen Home: player state: IDLE
[CastSocketRead (378065)     ] INFO     - 0:01:28.602    - b                           : Kitchen Home: ignoring duplicate player state
[CastSocketRead (378065)     ] INFO     - 0:01:28.700    - b                           : Kitchen Home: player state: BUFFERING
[CastSocketRead (378065)     ] INFO     - 0:01:28.701    - b                           : Kitchen Home: BUFFERING => PLAYING
[CastSocketRead (378065)     ] INFO     - 0:01:28.703    - b                           : Kitchen Home: started get current time task
[CastSocketRead (378065)     ] INFO     - 0:01:28.705    - b                           : Kitchen Home: Current state is: STOPPED, changing to new state: PLAYING
[CastSocketRead (378065)     ] INFO     - 0:01:28.717    - b                           : Kitchen Home: player state: BUFFERING
[CastSocketRead (378065)     ] INFO     - 0:01:28.719    - b                           : Kitchen Home: BUFFERING => PLAYING
[CastSocketRead (378065)     ] INFO     - 0:01:28.721    - b                           : Kitchen Home: ignoring duplicate player state
[CastSocketRead (378065)     ] INFO     - 0:02:05.726    - b                           : Kitchen Home: player state: PLAYING
[CastSocketRead (378065)     ] INFO     - 0:02:05.728    - b                           : Kitchen Home: ignoring duplicate player state


[hoyt]

v .84:

Code: [Select]

# tail -n 100 BubbleUPnPServer.log.0
Manufacturer: Bubblesoft
Manufacturer URL: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1118891
Model name: BubbleUPnP Google Cast DLNA renderer
Model description: BubbleUPnP Google Cast DLNA renderer
Model number: 0.9-update29
Presentation URL: http://192.168.2.10:58050
Serial number: 0.9-update29
UDN: 1d34f252-fdce-377b-0000-00000301925e

[main (1)                    ] INFO     - 0:00:17.957    - b$a$1                       : Google Cast device added: Kitchen Home

[q@31010675 name: 'Google-Home-3a4c0d992168dd2a55a3c738a5339788._googlecast._tcp.local.' address: '/192.168.4.152:8009 ' status: 'DNS: 192.168.2.10 [/192.168.2.10] state: probing 1 task: null' is persistent, has data
id: 3a4c0d992168dd2a55a3c738a5339788
ic: /setup/icon.png
cd: 0F5C347E2B0E8629F7A55B148AE369DA
nf: 1
rs:
ca: 2052
ve: 05
rm: 41348FE0602E14AA
md: Google Home
fn: Kitchen Home
bs: FA8FCA3D6254
st: 0]


[cling-21 (378197)           ] INFO     - 0:00:17.962    - c                           :

Manufacturer: Silicondust
Manufacturer URL: http://www.silicondust.com/
Model name: HDHomeRun CONNECT
Model description: HDHR4-2US HDHomeRun CONNECT
Model number: HDHR4-2US
Model URL: http://www.silicondust.com/
Presentation URL: /
Serial number: 1043519E
UDN: 5D6E9F7C-7F45-3C8D-A3B0-86EEA7211492

[main (1)                    ] INFO     - 0:00:17.968    - d                           : nuc01 (MC Server): added interceptor
[main (1)                    ] INFO     - 0:00:17.988    - d                           : added Renderer device: nuc01: Player
[main (1)                    ] INFO     - 0:00:17.993    - d                           : added Renderer device: Kitchen Home (DLNA)
[main (1)                    ] WARNING  - 0:00:17.995    - d                           : HDHomeRun DMS 1043519E: can't find action Search
[main (1)                    ] INFO     - 0:00:17.997    - d                           : HDHomeRun DMS 1043519E: added interceptor
[qtp25228017-378176 (378176) ] INFO     - 0:00:21.870    - b                           : com.bubblesoft.bubbleupnpserver.server.servlets.f-134df4b: g
[qtp25228017-378176 (378176) ] INFO     - 0:00:21.920    - d                           : added comet session: 1xq78wh7ud6r8zjlmc6h4gj7z
[qtp25228017-378176 (378176) ] INFO     - 0:00:21.924    - d                           : comet session already added: 1xq78wh7ud6r8zjlmc6h4gj7z
[cling-32 (378209)           ] INFO     - 0:00:30.407    - b                           : Kitchen Home: stop()
[cling-37 (378214)           ] INFO     - 0:00:36.533    - b                           : Kitchen Home: setAVTransportURI: uri=http://192.168.2.101:52100/Music/F990667.flac, metadata=<DIDL-Lite xmlns="urn:schemas-upnp-org:metadata-1-0/DIDL-Lite/" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:upnp="urn:schemas-upnp-org:metadata-1-0/upnp/" xmlns:dlna="urn:schemas-dlna-org:device-1-0" xmlns:av="urn:schemas-sony-com:av" xmlns:pv="http://www.pv.com/pvns/" xmlns:jriver="urn:schemas-jriver-com:jriver">
<item id="F990667" parentID="0" restricted="1">
<dc:title>Pantala Naga Pampa</dc:title>
<upnp:class>object.item.audioItem.musicTrack</upnp:class>
<upnp:artist>Dave Matthews Band</upnp:artist>
<upnp:artist role="Performer">Dave Matthews Band</upnp:artist>
<upnp:artist role="AlbumArtist">Dave Matthews Band</upnp:artist>
<dc:creator>Dave Matthews Band</dc:creator>
<upnp:album>Before These Crowded Streets</upnp:album>
<upnp:genre>Alternative Rock</upnp:genre>
<upnp:originalTrackNumber>1</upnp:originalTrackNumber>
<upnp:playbackCount>21</upnp:playbackCount>
<dc:date>1998-01-01T00:00:00</dc:date>
<pv:playcount>21</pv:playcount>
<pv:lastPlayedTime>2018-03-10T16:55:10</pv:lastPlayedTime>
<pv:addedTime>1379179196</pv:addedTime>
<pv:modificationTime>1430790655</pv:modificationTime>
<upnp:albumArtURI dlna:profileID="JPEG_LRG">http://192.168.2.101:52100/AArl/990667.jpg</upnp:albumArtURI>
<upnp:albumArtURI dlna:profileID="JPEG_MED">http://192.168.2.101:52100/AArm/990667.jpg</upnp:albumArtURI>
<upnp:albumArtURI dlna:profileID="JPEG_SM">http://192.168.2.101:52100/AArs/990667.jpg</upnp:albumArtURI>
<upnp:albumArtURI dlna:profileID="JPEG_TN">http://192.168.2.101:52100/AArt/990667.jpg</upnp:albumArtURI>
<res protocolInfo="http-get:*:audio/x-flac:DLNA.ORG_PN=FLAC;DLNA.ORG_OP=01;DLNA.ORG_CI=0;DLNA.ORG_FLAGS=01700000000000000000000000000000" duration="0:00:40.000" size="4963393" nrAudioChannels="2" sampleFrequency="44100" bitsPerSample="16">http://192.168.2.101:52100/Music/F990667.flac</res>
</item>
</DIDL-Lite>

[cling-37 (378214)           ] INFO     - 0:00:36.641    - b                           : Kitchen Home: got mime-type from protocolInfo
[cling-37 (378214)           ] INFO     - 0:00:36.643    - b                           : Kitchen Home: mime-type: audio/x-flac
[cling-37 (378214)           ] INFO     - 0:00:36.653    - b                           : Kitchen Home: should proxy: false
[cling-32 (378209)           ] INFO     - 0:00:36.699    - b                           : Kitchen Home: play()
[cling-32 (378209)           ] INFO     - 0:00:36.702    - b                           : Kitchen Home: connecting to platform...
[cling-32 (378209)           ] INFO     - 0:00:36.719    - b                           : connecting to 192.168.4.152:8009 ...
[cling-32 (378209)           ] INFO     - 0:00:36.891    - b                           : connected to 192.168.4.152:8009
[CastSocketRead (378217)     ] INFO     - 0:00:36.905    - b$5                         : CastSocketRead thread started
[cling-32 (378209)           ] INFO     - 0:00:37.54     - b                           : Kitchen Home: platform connected
[cling-32 (378209)           ] INFO     - 0:00:37.56     - b                           : Kitchen Home: launch receiver...
[CastSocketRead (378217)     ] INFO     - 0:00:39.123    - b                           : Kitchen Home: receiver launched or joined
[CastSocketRead (378217)     ] INFO     - 0:00:39.154    - b                           : Kitchen Home: loading url=http://192.168.2.10:58050/chromecast/transcode?url=B14A246DA53DF8DD077EAF88197F83749258FCDC5C18619BE2B4C3A5283CB2F4186915760613E37B15E51D2F86BB6A80&ext=flac&preserveMultichannelAudio=false&enableAC3Passthrough=false&deviceUDN=3a4c0d992168dd2a55a3c738a5339788&itemId=76A46C50E6EA9AD4C25B6DCE6E6C9273 metadata={songName=Pantala Naga Pampa, albumName=Before These Crowded Streets, images=[{url=http://192.168.2.101:52100/AArl/990667.jpg}], trackNumber=1, artist=Dave Matthews Band, releaseDate=1998-01-01, albumArtist=Dave Matthews Band, title=Pantala Naga Pampa, metadataType=3}...
[CastSocketRead (378217)     ] INFO     - 0:00:39.238    - b                           : Kitchen Home: player state: IDLE
[CastSocketRead (378217)     ] INFO     - 0:00:39.241    - b                           : Kitchen Home: Current state is: STOPPED, changing to new state: STOPPED
[qtp25228017-378218 (378218) ] INFO     - 0:00:39.335    - ChromecastTranscodeServlet  : input URL: http://192.168.2.101:52100/Music/F990667.flac
[qtp25228017-378218 (378218) ] INFO     - 0:00:39.346    - ChromecastTranscodeServlet  : GPU transcoding is not usable: GPU transcoding is not supported by ffmpeg
[qtp25228017-378218 (378218) ] INFO     - 0:00:39.352    - FFMpegUtils                 : ffprobe process started, timeout: 30000 ms: ffprobe -show_format -show_streams -seekable 0 http://192.168.2.101:52100/Music/F990667.flac
[qtp25228017-378218 (378218) ] INFO     - 0:00:39.675    - FFMpegUtils                 : ffprobe finished
[qtp25228017-378218 (378218) ] INFO     - 0:00:39.716    - ChromecastTranscodeServlet  : input format: flac
[qtp25228017-378218 (378218) ] INFO     - 0:00:39.734    - ChromecastTranscodeServlet  : input ext: flac, codec: flac, samplerate:44100, bits: 16, channels: 2, ReplayGain: true
[qtp25228017-378218 (378218) ] INFO     - 0:00:39.737    - ChromecastTranscodeServlet  : redirecting to http://192.168.2.101:52100/Music/F990667.flac
[CastSocketRead (378217)     ] INFO     - 0:00:39.938    - b                           : Kitchen Home: player state: BUFFERING
[CastSocketRead (378217)     ] INFO     - 0:00:39.940    - b                           : Kitchen Home: BUFFERING => PLAYING
[CastSocketRead (378217)     ] INFO     - 0:00:39.946    - b                           : Kitchen Home: started get current time task
[CastSocketRead (378217)     ] INFO     - 0:00:39.948    - b                           : Kitchen Home: Current state is: STOPPED, changing to new state: PLAYING
[CastSocketRead (378217)     ] INFO     - 0:00:40.3      - b                           : Kitchen Home: player state: BUFFERING
[CastSocketRead (378217)     ] INFO     - 0:00:40.5      - b                           : Kitchen Home: BUFFERING => PLAYING
[CastSocketRead (378217)     ] INFO     - 0:00:40.7      - b                           : Kitchen Home: ignoring duplicate player state

Why does v 103 send an MP3 and v 84 send a FLAC?

[JimH]

Settings for the DLNA Server?

[AndrewFG]

At some point (I am guessing between v80 and v100) they changed the settings for UPNP/DLNA track transcoding. Previously you only had two choices (always/never convert) but now you have the option to select which media types are converted and which are not.

[hoyt]

Settings for the DLNA Server?

On the server itself?  Nothing changed, and there's not a whole lot for BubbleUPNP to configure. 

In JRiver, I have it set to Disable SetNext, I tried every iteration of those three checks and didn't notice a difference. 

[hoyt]

At some point (I am guessing between v80 and v100) they changed the settings for UPNP/DLNA track transcoding. Previously you only had two choices (always/never convert) but now you have the option to select which media types are converted and which are not.

Interesting.  So I had that set to MP3, and I'm not sure why.  I'm sure I set that up ages ago and I guess it never actually converted it.  I changed it to "original" and now v 103 advances appropriately!

Also - Jim, I assume now this is what you were referring to by DLNA server settings.

Thanks!

[kpstanton]

I am also having issues sending flacs to BubbleUPnP/ChromeCast after upgrading to MC23 (103 x64).  Everything worked fine with MC21.  When DLNA audio mode is set to "Original" no audio is played and the tracks skip to the next track after a few seconds.  When DLNA audio is set to Mp3, flacs will play, but they stop right before the end of the track and do not advance to the next track.  Changing the Zone DLNA Controller Options does not seem to have any affect.  As I said, I have never had this issue in the past.  Not sure if it is a change in MC, BubbleUPnp, or ChromeCast.  Anyone else having this issue?

[john greenwood]

I posted in another thread but got no response.

"The connection to my Chromecast Audio works, but after playing one track it will not advance to the next.

Edit - oddly my Google Home, also set up as a DLNA Renderer, will advance to the next track."

I can probably round up the various logs, but I am not as expert as Hoyt.