Topic: Tagging issues [Solved] (Read 7154 times)

tyler69 · « **on:** March 03, 2018, 03:47:00 am »

The files I import into MC are already tagged. Now when I check them with a tagging program, I see that some of them have additional information tagged (Dynamic Range, Tempo, Replay Gain, etc.). That is OK for me. But those files have also another value in the Album Artist tag.
So for files that have the additional analytical tags, the Album Artist has a value "Artist; Artist", which is kind of annoying. The duplicate values do not show in MC when I open up the tagging editor but they show up in another editor (e.g. dbpoweramp).

Any ideas what I might do wrong?

RoderickGI · « **Reply #1 on:** March 03, 2018, 05:11:34 am »

Well, the [Album Artist] tag should only ever have one value in it, while the [Artist] tag can contain a list of Artists associated with a track, separated by a ";".

I've seen a number of cases where either somebody, or some other tagging software, has entered the [Artist] information into the [Album Artist] tag, and sometimes their function has been reversed. So perhaps look into that.

I would have thought MC would show exactly what was in the [Album Artist] tag, rather than remove one value. If the Artist was repeated in the [Artist] tag I could understand MC removing the duplicate, since it handles the field as a list when values are correctly separated by a ";". A list containing two identical values would be considered a list of one value.

tyler69 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 03, 2018, 05:20:32 am »

Thanks.
So assuming I have an album by Artist1 and Artist2, The [Album Artist] tag should be "Artist1 & Artist2", while the [Artist] tag should be "Artist1; Artist2", correct?
I usually tag before importing into MC and where applicable, I enter the [Artist] value also into [Album Artist].

The problem is that MC does not remove, but duplicates the [Album Artist] value, separating the values with a ";" when it writes the dynamic range tags. Please see the screenshots for reference.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #3 on:** March 03, 2018, 05:34:52 am »

No.

The [Artist] tag should be set to "Artist1; Artist2" (note space), and the [Album Artist] tag should be set to whatever you want it to be, and it will be used to group the tracks together in an Album in Views.

There is a hierarchy of how the three tags, [Artist], [Album Artist], and [Album Artist (auto)] get used in MC.

If there is one [Artist] value and no [Album Artist] value, [Album Artist (auto)] = [Artist]
If there are multiple [Artist] values and no [Album Artist] value, [Album Artist (auto)] = "(Multiple Artists)"
If there are multiple [Artist] values and one [Album Artist] value, [Album Artist (auto)] = [Album Artist].

Note that if you put "Artist1; Artist2" in the [Album Artist] tag, that is what is displayed in it. [Album Artist] is not a list field.
Note also that [Album Artist (auto)] is an automatically calculated tag, and is not stored in the media file.

See Options > Library & Folders > Manage Library Fields, and check out the definitions of all three fields. [Artist] is a list while [Album Artist] and [Album Artist (auto)] are strings.

Read https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Album_Artist_and_Album_Artist_(Auto) and https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Multiple_Artist_Albums

RoderickGI · « **Reply #4 on:** March 03, 2018, 05:53:10 am »

BTW, you didn't need two threads for this question.

Also, the separator in MC is always ";" regardless of the file format, even if the file can't actually store the tags. If you have "/" in your AIF files then either some other software you are using uses that separator or you have set that software to use that separator.

I don't know exactly why you are getting "Ella Fitzgerald/Louis Armstrong" in the [Artist] tag, but I suspect it is because you are mixing tagging applications that probably have different settings.

tyler69 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 03, 2018, 06:06:30 am »

Quote from: RoderickGI on March 03, 2018, 05:34:52 am

No.

The [Artist] tag should be set to "Artist1; Artist2" (note space), and the [Album Artist] tag should be set to whatever you want it to be, and it will be used to group the tracks together in an Album in Views.

Understood, thanks. The [Album Artist] above was just an example, so I assume that our understanding is similar.

Quote from: RoderickGI on March 03, 2018, 05:34:52 am

There is a hierarchy of how the three tags, [Artist], [Album Artist], and [Album Artist (auto)] get used in MC

If there is one [Artist] value and no [Album Artist] value, [Album Artist (auto)] = [Artist]
If there are multiple [Artist] values and no [Album Artist] value, [Album Artist (auto)] = "(Multiple Artists)"
If there are multiple [Artist] values and one [Album Artist] value, [Album Artist (auto)] = [Album Artist].

Note that if you put "Artist1; Artist2" in the [Album Artist] tag, that is what is displayed in it. [Album Artist] is not a list field.
Note also that [Album Artist (auto)] is an automatically calculated tag, and is not stored in the media file.

Thanks, that works.

I will need to investigate some more on "Views" in MC.

However, the issue, that MC writes another Album Artist into the [Album Artist] tag still persists.

tyler69 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 03, 2018, 06:08:09 am »

Quote from: RoderickGI on March 03, 2018, 05:53:10 am

BTW, you didn't need two threads for this question.

Also, the separator in MC is always ";" regardless of the file format, even if the file can't actually store the tags. If you have "/" in your AIF files then either some other software you are using uses that separator or you have set that software to use that separator.

I don't know exactly why you are getting "Ella Fitzgerald/Louis Armstrong" in the [Artist] tag, but I suspect it is because you are mixing tagging applications that probably have different settings.

Those are two seperate issues in my view. One (this thread here) is about MC adding a value to the [Album Artist] tag. The other thread is about understanding the tagging functionality/setting up a view I would like.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #7 on:** March 03, 2018, 06:20:34 am »

Pretty closely linked issues, as the developing discussion shows.

Quote from: tyler69 on March 03, 2018, 06:08:09 am

One (this thread here) is about MC adding a value to the [Album Artist] tag.

The [Album Artist] tag is a user data entry tag. MC never writes anything into it, unless it is finding the value in the file when it is initially imported or updated due to external changes. I can't make MC do it now, using just MC. Only the [Album Artist (auto)] tag is automatically populated, and the [Artist] tag is formatted to include a space when there is more than one value in the list.

I think you need to look at your workflow to see where the extra value is coming from, or to describe the issue and your workflow some more if anyone is to work out what is happening.

tyler69 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 03, 2018, 06:43:43 am »

Well, I do see those as two seperate issues. Please let's stick in this thread as to why I see [Album Artist] populated with two values divided by an ";".

Thanks, the workflow is: Tagging [Artist], [Album Artist], [Album] and other tags with dBPpoweramp and adding them to my library. Done.

MC then writes other tags like Dynamic Range, Tempo, Replay Gain, etc. I can see those tags in the tag editor. The files that have those tags (Dynamic Range, Tempo, Replay Gain, etc.) do also have another value in [Album Artist] which I did never add manually.

So my assumption is, that MC duplicates the [Album Artist] value and seperates it with an ";" (the ";" shows up in dBPoweramp, not in MC). ~~One hint that might be in my first post in this thread ("The duplicate values do not show in MC when I open up the tagging editor but they show up in another editor (e.g. dbpoweramp)"~~.

EDIT: After further investigation, it looks like the duplicate values actually show up in MC. They are divided by a "/".

RD James · « **Reply #9 on:** March 03, 2018, 07:31:30 am »

Quote from: tyler69 on March 03, 2018, 03:47:00 am

Album Artist has a value "Artist; Artist"

This looks like a bug with AIFF tagging in Media Center.
When I convert tracks to AIFF, or if I use Media Center to tag AIFF tracks, I see [Album Artist] containing that value twice.
It doesn't happen with FLAC files, and I haven't tested anything else.

Media Center ignores files that it has tagged in this manner, but when importing tracks it comes in as "Artist/Artist" in the [Album Artist] field.

tyler69 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 03, 2018, 07:37:10 am »

Thank you for verifying!

RoderickGI · « **Reply #11 on:** March 03, 2018, 05:51:43 pm »

Quote from: tyler69 on March 03, 2018, 06:43:43 am

EDIT: After further investigation, it looks like the duplicate values actually show up in MC. They are divided by a "/".

Which is why I was hopping from thread to thread, because the image that hints at that is over in your other thread: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,114615.msg793123.html#msg793123

I still can't replicate the problem. Maybe because I am only using MC. I converted a track to AIFF and all its tags were correct. It was initially tagged with multiple Artists and an Album Artist, and they carried across correctly.

So I edited the [Album Artist] tag in MC, and that still all worked correctly. I checked the Tag Dump area and no extra tags showed.

I'm wondering if there are multiple tags in the file itself, and MC is combining those tags and putting them into its equivalent. i.e. Some files seem to have an "Album Artist" tag and an "AlbumArtist" tag. Maybe MC is just reading those and putting them both into [Album Artist]? Actually, maybe not. I just checked a number of FLAC files ripped directly from CD, and they have both the "Album Artist" tag and an "AlbumArtist" tag stored in the file, as viewed using MC's Tag Dump feature. Converting them to AIFF doesn't create the problem.

Quote from: tyler69 on March 03, 2018, 06:43:43 am

MC then writes other tags like Dynamic Range, Tempo, Replay Gain, etc. I can see those tags in the tag editor. The files that have those tags (Dynamic Range, Tempo, Replay Gain, etc.) do also have another value in [Album Artist] which I did never add manually.

Those tags are the result of MC doing Audio Analysis. So I deleted all those tags from the AIFF track I created by converting an M4A file and ran Audio Analysis on it. Tags are still correct.

So I converted three more FLAC files to AIFF, saving them to a completely separate new directory that isn't watched by MC. Then I imported that directory manually. All imported correctly with no extra tags.

I'm still thinking that a third party application is involved in this somehow. Or perhaps the original source of the digital tracks. But if they were ripped from CD using dBpoweramp, and that was the only processing before importing into MC, then dBpoweramp has to be the source of the extra data as ripped CD files contain no tags until the ripping software adds them.

Was there something special about the files you tested with RD? I used files directly ripped from CD using MC for the FLACs, and the M4A was just converted from a FLAC version.

BTW, I could understand MC converting an "Album Artist" tag of "Artist; Artist" to "Artist/Artist" during import, as ";" is a separator and MC might be programmed to replace the separator in a non-list field. So I changed the [Album Artist] tag in a FLAC file to "Artist; Artist", which it saved as exactly that, then converted it to AIFF into that independent directory, then manually imported it. Still no joy. The [Album Artist] tag in the AIFF files came in as "Artist; Artist".

If either of you can provide a way I can reproduce the problem using MC only, I will try. That would at least confirm a MC issue.

Maybe it would be better to address the reason you are tagging with dBpoweramp. From the other thread:

Quote from: tyler69 on March 03, 2018, 06:11:31 am

I do not use MC for tagging because of the issues I describe in the other thread. Also I never got to find out all options on how/when MC adds tags. So I want to tag the files before importing, then NOT writing MC any tags to it.

You would have to clarify the above if you wanted to talk about that though.

tyler69 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 03, 2018, 12:49:26 pm »

Quote from: RD James on March 03, 2018, 07:31:30 am

This looks like a bug with AIFF tagging in Media Center.
When I convert tracks to AIFF, or if I use Media Center to tag AIFF tracks, I see [Album Artist] containing that value twice.
It doesn't happen with FLAC files, and I haven't tested anything else.

Media Center ignores files that it has tagged in this manner, but when importing tracks it comes in as "Artist/Artist" in the [Album Artist] field.

Is this something JRiver considers worth fixing? I think the issue also applies to DSF files.

tyler69 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 29, 2018, 06:32:28 am »

So this error persists in the latest MC24. Can this be fixed, please? It takes an effort to tag music according to one's needs and it is frustrating to see the tags "messed up" after importing.

Steps to reproduce:
1. Tag [Album Artist] of a DSF or AIF file (not with MC)
2. Import the file into MC
3. Let MC analyze the file (MC writes then additional tags like Dynamic Range and Peak Level)
4. Inspect the file with a tagging tool (e.g. DBPoweramp)

The tag [Album Artist] will have a duplicated value separated by a semicolon (Album Artist=Album Artist;Album Artist)
Interestingly though the duplicated value does not show up in MC's GUI.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #14 on:** April 29, 2018, 07:32:57 am »

Quote from: tyler69 on April 29, 2018, 06:32:28 am

The tag [Album Artist] will have a duplicated value separated by a semicolon (Album Artist=Album Artist;Album Artist)
Interestingly though the duplicated value does not show up in MC's GUI.

I can confirm this and have seen this for the last several years since using DSF files.

tyler69 · « **Reply #15 on:** April 29, 2018, 08:13:32 am »

Thank you Awesome Donkey. So RD James confirmed for AIF files, Awesome Donkey confirmed for DSF files. I can confirm for both types.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #16 on:** May 01, 2018, 09:18:10 am »

No problem. I never reported it since I don't have adequate upload speed to upload a sample file (it'd likely take up to a day to upload the smallest DSF file I have!), though, I think the smallest one I have is around 95MB, which *might* take me several hours, so it's doable for me to upload as a sample.

Also would like to see the (native) Total Tracks and Total Discs fields supported for DSF files too (e.g. the 1/12 field for Track, and 1/1 field for Disc as seen in dBpoweramp in the screenshot below). You can add them in dBpoweramp, but MC doesn't read them (and thus you have to write the alternate Total Tracks and Total Discs fields that MC writes and uses, also seen in the screenshot below). You have to manually add and edit the Total Tracks and Total Discs fields too (analyze audio doesn't add them) for DSF files, but I assume it's because MC can't read the native Total Tracks and Total Discs fields, like it does for FLAC (and other) files.

One other possible thing: Does embedded artwork work/show in MC for DSF files? I seem to recall it doesn't (even though DSF supports embedded artwork, AFAIK), thus I have to add a Folder.jpg to each DSD album I have.

Here's an example in dBpoweramp's tag window (you can also see the doubled Album Artist field):

IMO, this post should be in the MC24 section, so it has a better chance of getting addressed.

Matt, if you're interested in looking into this, I'll upload a sample file - I think I will anyways, just in case.

tyler69 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 01, 2018, 10:00:34 am »

Thank you Awesome Donkey!

Regarding:

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on May 01, 2018, 09:18:10 am

One other possible thing: Does embedded artwork work/show in MC for DSF files? I seem to recall it doesn't (even though DSF supports embedded artwork, AFAIK), thus I have to add a Folder.jpg to each DSD album I have.

I have never experienced issues with cover art embedded in DSF files. I have only the audio files in the folder and MC shows the cover art I added by tagging before I imported the audio files into MC.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #18 on:** May 01, 2018, 11:23:43 am »

I'll have to test the embedded cover art here in a bit. EDIT: Looks like it does work, YAY! I've removed my Folder.jpg workaround!

Nonetheless, I've now got a sample DSF file uploaded for use.

tyler69 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 22, 2018, 10:12:44 am »

tyler69 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 05, 2018, 12:48:19 pm »

This issue (Artist; Artist) persists in .41. I do hope JRiver is willing to put some time into it.

JimH · « **Reply #21 on:** July 05, 2018, 01:24:28 pm »

Please report bugs in the build thread (the one that announced the build).

Hendrik · « **Reply #22 on:** July 10, 2018, 04:36:33 am »

I looked into this, and this looks like an issue with those tools.

For compatibility with a wide range of devices and tools, MC writes some tags using different tag names which have been used historically for those values. For example for Album Artist, it writes it using the TPE2 tag, and the generic TXXX(Album Artist) tag. Both of those tags contain the exact same value, the proper Album Artist, just once.

Now those other tools for some reason decide to read both fields and then show you both values, even if identical, concatenated as one. Never does MC write the value like its shown to you in those other tools.
I would strongly recommend that those other tools do not show the value like that if it is in fact identical in multiple fields.

tyler69 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 10, 2018, 05:04:47 am »

Quote from: Hendrik on July 10, 2018, 04:36:33 am

I looked into this, and this looks like an issue with those tools.

For compatibility with a wide range of devices and tools, MC writes some tags using different tag names which have been used historically for those values. For example for Album Artist, it writes it using the TPE2 tag, and the generic TXXX(Album Artist) tag. Both of those tags contain the exact same value, the proper Album Artist, just once.

Now those other tools for some reason decide to read both fields and then show you both values, even if identical, concatenated as one. Never does MC write the value like its shown to you in those other tools.
I would strongly recommend that those other tools do not show the value like that if it is in fact identical in multiple fields.

Thanks for looking into it Hendrik. So do I understand it right that if:

1. I tag my AIF/DSF files with dbPoweramp.
2. The tagged files are being imported into MC.
3. MC automatically(?) writes analytical tags to those files (although I can't reliably say when it does that).
4. When loading those files afterward into foobar and/or dBPoweramp, they do have the Artist;Artist tag value which they did not have before. Sometimes the whole album, sometimes just a few files out of this album -this probably depends on if all files have the analytical tags in it or not.

foobar and dbPoweramp are at fault?

Hendrik · « **Reply #24 on:** July 10, 2018, 05:06:24 am »

There is never a value like that ever written into the file. Those tools decide to show it like that. You can make of that what you want.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #25 on:** July 10, 2018, 05:14:45 am »

It's worth noting that Mp3tag doesn't show both Album Artist tags by default either. If you look at the extended tags you'll see both Album Artist tags, but normally it displays only one.

Screenshot of Mp3tag's default display of the tags: https://i.imgur.com/f5zslz1.png
Screenshot of Mp3tag's extended tags window: https://i.imgur.com/VwQ3IUb.png

So yeah, it's foobar2000 and dBpoweramp displaying them like this. Probably should be reported to devs of those apps.

I suppose if you wanted, you could use Mp3tag to remove one of the Album Artist fields from your DSF files. Just don't use Update tags (from library) on them or else they'd appear duplicated again.

tyler69 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 10, 2018, 05:17:20 am »

Hm, but something MUST be happening, right?! Since the (in foobar and or dbPoweramp) displayed tag values of the input (the files prior to importing into MC) files are different from the displayed tag values of the files when they have been imported into MC.
Like I said, the files have [ARTIST] and [ALBUM ARTIST] already tagged before they get imported into MC.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #27 on:** July 10, 2018, 05:35:58 am »

Well, like Hendrik said MC writes both Album Artist tags (for compatibility reasons). If you've ever ran Update tags (from library) or perhaps have audio analysis on import enabled it might write/update those tags.

That said, you can manually remove one of the Album Artist tags for it to display normally again as long as you don't run Update tags (from library) on your files again. I've just manually removed one of the Album Artist tags (the ALBUMARTIST tag, leaving only ALBUM ARTIST) using Mp3tag from all my DSF files and it's displaying 'correctly' in foobar2000/dBpoweramp now.

tyler69 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 10, 2018, 05:51:28 am »

Thanks.
I never run "update tags from library". Might need to check if the "audio analysis on import" is activated (probably is). Guess I have to live with that issue since I like the files to be analyzed. What I am puzzled about though is: why do some files show the DR values in MC although they do not have the analyzing tags written to them? Is showing the DR values part of "audio analysis on import"?

The manual fixing is what I have been occasionally doing for over a year now.

JimH · « **Reply #29 on:** July 10, 2018, 05:52:46 am »

Did you report the problem to the other developers?

tyler69 · « **Reply #30 on:** July 10, 2018, 06:00:29 am »

Quote from: JimH on July 10, 2018, 05:52:46 am

Did you report the problem to the other developers?

No, I have not yet.

tyler69 · « **Reply #31 on:** July 10, 2018, 07:30:02 am »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on July 10, 2018, 05:35:58 am

Well, like Hendrik said MC writes both Album Artist tags (for compatibility reasons). If you've ever ran Update tags (from library) or perhaps have audio analysis on import enabled it might write/update those tags.

If that is true (I suspect so), why does MC write (both) Album Artists tags when I do an "audio analysis"? Shouldn't this only write Replaygain, DR values and so on?

RoderickGI · « **Reply #32 on:** July 10, 2018, 06:42:17 pm »

Quote from: tyler69 on July 10, 2018, 07:30:02 am

If that is true (I suspect so), why does MC write (both) Album Artists tags when I do an "audio analysis"? Shouldn't this only write Replaygain, DR values and so on?

Do you have "Options > General > Importing & Tagging > Update tags when file info changes" ticked?

If so, that would be your answer. When any file info changes, all tags that MC can write to a file are checked/updated.

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Update_Tags_When_File_Info_Changes

tyler69 · « **Reply #33 on:** July 11, 2018, 01:24:32 am »

Thanks RoderickGI. It was indeed checked. I unchecked and will see how it goes

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Author Topic: Tagging issues [Solved] (Read 7154 times)