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[tij]

My setup is described in my signature.

I have a setup where for 3D MC switches to 1080p (highest supported resolution for 3D) and for 2D MC switches to 2160p.

When starting video, MC switches to correct resolution dictated by MadVR setting of [devices] -> [display modes] ... TV info screen confirms it receives correct resolution

Problem ... MadVR scales video to resolution that PC was started in

so if i turn on my computer to 1080p ... MadVR will scale my 2D video to 1080p but MC outputs it in 2160p to TV (Windows do 1080p to 2160p???) ... see screen shot

if start PC in 2160p ... MadVR will scale 3D to 2160p but MC outputs it in 1080p to TV

i tested one more time and started PC in 720p ... MadVR scale my 2D 1080p to 1536x864 ... MC output it in 2160p to TV ... see screen shot


... so it seems MadVR is getting wrong information to which resolution to scale ... from MC? ... from LAV?


Can anybody confirm this?

PS. most people will not notice this as their desktop resolution will match the resolution they watch movies on ... but for 3D stuff it is a problem ... starting desktop in 4K ... when watching 3D it gets scaled to 4K only to be output to TV in 1080p (lots of GPU power could have been allocated to image quality instead of image size as 3D only works in 1080p)

[Hendrik]

This is not something we have any influence over. Best to talk to the madVR author. Although its likely that your system is just reporting weird things. I would recommend to let MC switch the resolution instead of letting madVR do it, that has proven to be more reliable in the past.

[tij]

Funny thing … it works in MC23 perfectly (did MC24 introduce newer MadVR?)

In MC [tools]->[options]->[video]->[display settings]->[display settings automatic change mode] is set to ON

I turn off MadVR [devices]->[display modes]->[switch to matching display mode...] ... but results are same

The reason i believe system is reporting correctly ... when i run 3D in MC23 ... settings for scalings are adjusted so scaling to 1080p (chroma ... as luma doesnt need scaling for 1080p output) is done within limit of 24fps with some margin to avoid frame drops

When same content is running in MC24 on same setting ... there is huge increase in rendering time (from around 20ms to 80ms) causing massive amount of frame drops ... which indirectly support theory that MadVR is indeed scaling 3D 1080p to 2160p ... and then something else (Windows?) scale it back to 1080p for TV output

How does MadVR decides to which resolution to scale ... LAV teels it? ... MC tells it? ... or it just do what it wants?

[tij]

here is screenshot of 3D rendering … can see that TV receives 1080p and Dolby Digital ... can also see that MadVR upscales to 2160p

then something (Windows? ... MC? ... NVIDIA?) scales it back to 1080p to output to TV

So ... [Movie 1080p] -> [MadVR -> 2160p] ... [something? -> 1080p] ... [TV -> 1080p]

[RD James]

What are your Windows scaling settings for 1080p and 2160p?
If they are set to different scales; e.g. 1080p at 100% and 2160p at 200%, that's likely to be a factor.

[tij]

I didn't touch those … but checking it … resolution is 3840x2160 … Change the size of text, apps, and other items is 250%

Changing those around does seem to change how MadVR choose to render ... so thank you for pointing me in right direction

so when trying to output 1080p (for 3D stuff) ... scale of 250% makes madVR render 3840x2160 ... 100% makes 4800x2700 ... 300% makes 2743x1543 ... end result is Windows output 1080p

... now question ... can i turn this Windows scaling crap off (completely ... or just for MC)

[RD James]

... now question ... can i turn this Windows scaling crap off (completely ... or just for MC)

You can disable scaling by setting it to 100% (at both resolutions) but that may mean the desktop is too small.
 
I've done a small amount of testing, and it seems that bringing up the properties for "Media Center 24.exe" and setting the DPI scaling override to "Application" in compatibility settings appears to report the correct desktop resolution in madVR's stats.
 
However, I have not done any testing of this to confirm if it actually means that video is being scaled correctly and displayed 1:1.

[tij]

I've done a small amount of testing, and it seems that bringing up the properties for "Media Center 24.exe" and setting the DPI scaling override to "Application" in compatibility settings appears to report the correct desktop resolution in madVR's stats.
 
However, I have not done any testing of this to confirm if it actually means that video is being scaled correctly and displayed 1:1.

That did the trick … DPI scaling overrides to "Application" makes MadVR scale to resolution that display is switching too … THANX

only not so big issue … is when coming back to 2160p desktop after watching 3D in 1080p … MC UI looks LARGE … LARGE buttons … LARGE text … LARGE everything … trying to figure how to fix that

[tij]

So … to summarize solution of avoiding Windows DPI screw up with MadVR scaling resolution choice (when its different from Desktop setting):

1. Go to location of MC program … right click on it and choose "Properties" … [Compatibility]->[Change high DPI settings] … tick "High DPI scaling overrides" then choose "Application"

2. after movie finish, MC returns to UI … and without DPI setting, the UI will scale incorrectly to correct this …  [tools]->[options]->[video]->[display settings]->[display setting automatic change mode] put on CUSTOM … and in [Default (used when restoring display settings)] I put "Desktop Settings" (other choices depend on your choices for watching movies)

This fix the problem … almost … my desktop is set 2160p60 … if last movie watch was played in 1080p23 … MC returns to 2160p60 after movie correctly … but if quit MC now, MC will set desktop to 2160p23


Bug? … fortunately I can live with this one


Thx again RD James for putting me on right path

[GaryM]

May I comment... You guys are selling a product... your product wraps up MadVR as part of the offering. If there is a bug, even one caused by something in MadVR, it is >your< job to interface with the developer there to resolve it. We are >your< customers not his.

Thank you.

This is not something we have any influence over. Best to talk to the madVR author. Although its likely that your system is just reporting weird things. I would recommend to let MC switch the resolution instead of letting madVR do it, that has proven to be more reliable in the past.

[RoderickGI]

This is why I'm not using my 4K TV in 4K resolution. Too complex and fiddly. Too many different places to find settings that all interact with each other.

It would be nice if ROHQ just fixed all this stuff and made it work correctly. Most users won't even attempt 4K resolution, I'm sure. Or if they do, they will be tearing their hair out.

[Hendrik]

Playing in 4K is just fine. The problem is when you switch the resolution and DPI scaling on the fly. If you would never change the resolution, or stay on the same DPI, you would not have any troubles. This also cannot really be fixed easily due to the way DPI scaling in Windows works.
Dealing with DPI changes is really complicated, especially since the method to do that changed a couple times in past windows versions, from 7 to 8.1 and to 10 (and only in some later builds of 10 at that).

If it was me, I would probably just accept that its super-sampling the image (ie. upscaling and downscaling), and tune the profile to make its performance acceptable. Super-sampling probably doesn't even hurt the quality.
Or use 4K SBS 3D, which may even have higher quality in the end.

4K and 3D just doesn't mix. There is no proper 3D mode in 4K, and most future 4K TVs won't even support 3D.

So several options I would see here:
- Convince Windows to use the same DPI on all resolutions. I do not know how to do that, but maybe its possible.
- Accept super-sampling, its the easiest and probably quality-neutral, just a slight performance cost (if the 3D effect looks "ok" in that mode?)
- Use 4K SBS/OU 3D if your TV supports it, which might even increase quality slightly, but does lose some of the automatic-switching magic

[Manfred]

This is why I'm not using my 4K TV in 4K resolution. Too complex and fiddly. Too many different places to find settings that all interact with each other.

Sorry - but I disagree 

4k here works without any problems with ROHQ and its really stunning on my LG OLED

Important thoughts from my experience:
-use of NVIDIA GPU (intel iGPU on most mainboards does not support HDMI 2.0 and has problems with deinterlacing)
-use NVIDIA GPU for upscaling and not TV (much better latency and PQ)
-use MC for mode switching: "VideoClock enabled under General Video Settings in MC" and not madVR
-First use "Display Settings automatic change mode on" under VideoClock enabled under General Video Setting in MC
-HDR passthrough HDR content to the display (your TV must be 4k/HDR capable)
-scaling algorithm's: first use the the non AI algorithm's like Jinc, Bicubic, they work usually
-rendering general settings: use Direct 3D

Before you change something use ROHQ standard settings ( in the madVR directory there is a script "restore default settings") Path: "C:\Users\[YourUserId]\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 24\Plugins\madvr"

[RD James]

- Convince Windows to use the same DPI on all resolutions. I do not know how to do that, but maybe its possible.

All that you have to do for this is to select the output resolution as your desktop resolution, and set the DPI scale for it. Windows remembers your choice.
 
Media Center has always had difficulty scaling properly on Windows 8.1 / 10 (never tried it on 7, anyone using DPI scaling on 7 hates themselves) and there are several issues with Media Center's own scaling options too.

This is why I'm not using my 4K TV in 4K resolution. Too complex and fiddly. Too many different places to find settings that all interact with each other.

It would be nice if ROHQ just fixed all this stuff and made it work correctly. Most users won't even attempt 4K resolution, I'm sure. Or if they do, they will be tearing their hair out.

That seems crazy to me.
Just set it to 2x scale for both 4K and 1080p, or whatever scale you prefer (though Windows handles integer scales best).
Or stop switching resolution and use side-by-side 3D if your TV supports that at 4K.

[Hendrik]

Media Center has always had difficulty scaling properly on Windows 8.1 / 10 (never tried it on 7, anyone using DPI scaling on 7 hates themselves) and there are several issues with Media Center's own scaling options too.

The DPI scaling works fine within the limits that Microsoft has on that system. We just don't support per-monitor DPI scaling, which would also be required to react to DPI scale changes. But per-monitor DPI is rather screwed up anyway, considering MS had to change it 2 more times since it was initially introduced in Windows 8.1 (it was changed in the first Windows 10 version and once again in 1607 i believe), so anyone mixing different DPIs is going to hurt somewhere.

Thats why I would personally try to avoid any DPI changes at all. Or if you really can't, just let madVR and the graphics driver perform super-sampling of 3D content.

[JimH]

May I comment... You guys are selling a product... your product wraps up MadVR as part of the offering. If there is a bug, even one caused by something in MadVR, it is >your< job to interface with the developer there to resolve it. We are >your< customers not his.

1.  It's not clear there is a bug here.  Most madVR problems are related to configuration of madVR (which we do not recommend).

2.  When we find an important and common problem with madVR, we do talk with madshi (the developer).  It doesn't happen often, because he continues to fix problems.

3.  There is a thread devoted to madVR on doom9.  That's where any bugs should be reported.

[RoderickGI]

Okay, maybe I do need to revisit using 4K. But I do enjoy my 3D movies, and I don't have any 4K source materials at the moment, so the difference may not be that great, and will cost processing power.

I didn't know that I could display 3D content in 4K using any method. I haven't come across "Super-Sampling" so I'll have to find out what that is and how to set it, unless it is just setting the output resolution to 4K for all sources. I think my TV can support SBS 3D, but I'm not sure it would at 4K resolution. I think it is limited to 1080p.

Also, I thought all 3D Blu-rays used MVC coding and that is what had to be sent to the TV. I didn't know it could be converted to SBS on the fly, or maybe it can't be and I am reading too much into the comments above. If using SBS meant I had to rip all movies and convert to SBS MKV files, I'm probably not interested. I really want to spend time watching movies, not reprocessing them.

I would be concerned if 3D required the use of Direct 3D, as that will be disappearing in future, replaced by Open GL in MC. Or is that just for the MC GUI display, and not movie playback?

I would love to avoid DPI and resolution changes for all media and the Desktop, which would only leave frame rate switching to contend with.

Maybe I'll make some time to have a play with this, but last time I tried the changes screwed up Windows for a while. However, the discussion in this thread may help me avoid problems this time. We shall see.

[tij]

Frankly speaking ... i cannot tell when watching 4k HDR from 1080p on my LG OLED E7/C6 (neither can my wife ... for me its a placebo effect lol ... good to know i have best but cannot tell difference ... same feeling i sometimes get for having FLAC lol) ... i did not noticed that MadVR was downscaling my 4K to 1080p due to Windows DPI settings until @TheShoe pointed it out (ofcourse i fix that ... but still it feels the same)

But 3D on OLED is indeed a wow factor

You are right of course ... PC cannot output 3D in 4K (not MVC at least) … HDMI only specifies 3D on 1080p23 max … 4K TV will receive 1080p23 and upscale it to 4K itself (that's the beauty of it … now passive 3D get full 1080p resolution)

I think once MVC is decoded ... HDMI sends top/bottom at full resolution to TV ... so in fact it sends 3840x1080 (plus padding between images)

Due to Windows DPI on my PC ... MadVR was upscaling this 3840x1080 to 7680x2160 (massive frame drops until set upscaling setting way down) ... only to be downscaled by Windows/MC/Nvidia? back to 3840x1080 to be output for 3D … so waist of resources (my previous post described how to avoid it)

[tij]

Playing in 4K is just fine. The problem is when you switch the resolution and DPI scaling on the fly. If you would never change the resolution, or stay on the same DPI, you would not have any troubles. This also cannot really be fixed easily due to the way DPI scaling in Windows works.
Dealing with DPI changes is really complicated, especially since the method to do that changed a couple times in past windows versions, from 7 to 8.1 and to 10 (and only in some later builds of 10 at that).

If it was me, I would probably just accept that its super-sampling the image (ie. upscaling and downscaling), and tune the profile to make its performance acceptable. Super-sampling probably doesn't even hurt the quality.
Or use 4K SBS 3D, which may even have higher quality in the end.

4K and 3D just doesn't mix. There is no proper 3D mode in 4K, and most future 4K TVs won't even support 3D.

So several options I would see here:
- Convince Windows to use the same DPI on all resolutions. I do not know how to do that, but maybe its possible.
- Accept super-sampling, its the easiest and probably quality-neutral, just a slight performance cost (if the 3D effect looks "ok" in that mode?)
- Use 4K SBS/OU 3D if your TV supports it, which might even increase quality slightly, but does lose some of the automatic-switching magic

Yup … if working in same resolution (usually what most people do … set working resolution at max their display can support) and let MadVR do scaling … everything works fine

Problem is with 4K working resolution and 3D ... 3D encoded in MVC are 1080p ... and HDMI only specifies MVC 3D for 1080p

With DPI on ... when display switches to 1080p ... DPI tells MadVR to render accordingly (depending on DPI setting) ... on my previous DPI settinga, MadVR upscaled 3D to 4K ... BUT as display is set to 1080p for 3D ... that 4K upscale get downscaled again for TV output ... HUGE waist of resources ... to avoid this, set property of MC24 to override DPI of WIndows (see attached picture)

With DPI out of picture ... MadVR upscales to correct resolution ... BUT when 3D movie is done (1080p23) and MC returns to 4K ... without DPI, MC returns to UI that is HUGE (Fonts, Buttoms, Toolbars, etc) making it unusable until restart MC ... walkaround i found was to set [Display settings automatic change mode] to "Custom" then specify [Default (used when restoring display setting)] to my desktop setting ... this seems to force MC to "reconsider" its DPI and corretly scale its UI (see attached picture)

[Hendrik]

I understand what your problem is, hence why I gave you possible options that don't require manual hackery to reset MC or otherwise work. DPI is not "out of the picture" for you, you just told Windows to make MC ignore DPI, which is why you get the huge window issue.

Getting Windows to actually keep the same DPI would be the best option if that works. Otherwise, whats really so bad at the extra scaling step? Can you actually see the difference? If you build a 4K HTPC, it should be capable to upscale 1080p to 4K without any troubles, no?

[tij]

I understand what your problem is, hence why I gave you possible options that don't require manual hackery to reset MC or otherwise work. DPI is not "out of the picture" for you, you just told Windows to make MC ignore DPI, which is why you get the huge window issue.

Getting Windows to actually keep the same DPI would be the best option if that works. Otherwise, whats really so bad at the extra scaling step? Can you actually see the difference? If you build a 4K HTPC, it should be capable to upscale 1080p to 4K without any troubles, no?

To be truthful ... only reason I noticed it was massive frame drops since new Window updates on 3D titles ... initial solution was to turn chroma upsampling from very high to medium ... then set scaling to med setting ... no difference in visual was noticeable by me (apart from GPU turning its fan full speed as 3D requires scaling of 2 1080p images)

Perfectionist in me though demanded it to work as it should ... hence force windows not to apply DPI for MC ... and force MC to reconsider its rendering when restoring desktop setting

[tij]

DPI is not "out of the picture" for you, you just told Windows to make MC ignore DPI, which is why you get the huge window issue.

Getting Windows to actually keep the same DPI would be the best option if that works.

Reading through your post carefully ... I get what you saying now ... yes, DPI is still there (as you said, i just told Windows not to apply it to MC in order for madVR to render at correct resolution when switching from 2160p desktop to 1080p for 3D)

I dont mind DPI ... its useful for other applications, though does not work on everything (Photoshop CC is still tiny UI at 2160p ... but that's a different story)

which is why you get the huge window issue.

That i solved by setting [Display settings automatic change mode] to "Custom" as mentioned before ... which somehow forces MC to "reconsider" the size of its UI and render it correctly(putting that to only "ON" results in huge UI when coming back to 2160p from 1080p)

[TheShoe]

this change has everything working perfectly for me.

oddly came across this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF210WeR9C8

which talks about DPI issues in a multi-monitor situation; but switching resolutions and refresh rate on the fly is *kind of* like a multi-monitor situation, e.g. moving a window from one monitor to the next.

anyway thought I would share...