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[fitbrit]

Hi all

I just bought my first 4K screen, so now I can test my 4K rips finally!
The connected HTPC only has an i5 2400, but a GTX1050Ti video card. I was hoping that the latter should be sufficient for reliable 4K UHD decoding. I think I have my MadVR settings running perfectly in that I can get the TV to switch into HDR with FSE enabled, and it requires a restart of the TV to show up properly in windowed mode. (Otherwise it is green and purple!).

The problem is that I am getting a framerate of 19-23, mostly 19 and 20, and it looks awful. These rates do not change no matter how I play with MadVR's quality vs performance settings, or with FSE vs windowed mode. The content I am playing is native 4K HDR, so no upscaling or downscaling is happening.

From what I have read the GPU should be able to cope with this. Is that perhaps, optimistic, or is it the CPU limiting me? I will soon replace the innards with a newer i7 based system.

Any insights or MadVR settings recommendations welcomed.

[mojave]

Can you post a screenshot of the madVR stats.

[fitbrit]

I wish I could. Others seem to use ctrl-J to pull these up, but I get nothing. I will see if there is something I need to set in MadVR to allow stats display

[mojave]

Work around #1:  Try Options>General>Features>Remote Control (disable it)

Work around #2:  If you right click the screen and open the madVR options dialog box, you should be able press CTRL+J and have the stats show if the dialog box is the active window.

[fitbrit]

Thanks very much! I will do that and report back when I get the chance- probably tonight.

[RoderickGI]

Work around #2:  If you right click the screen and open the madVR options dialog box, you should be able press CTRL+J and have the stats show if the dialog box is the active window.

Note: If Ctrl+J doesn't work first time once the madVR options dialogue is up, click on any heading in the settings and it should start working. I find that I need to select a heading every time I first open the madVR settings, and after that it works fine with any option selected.

[fitbrit]

I didn't know how to do a screencap in FSE mode, so I did it the old fashioned way.

[mattkhan]

AIUI empty present queue means GPU overloaded

why it is overloaded is another Q as it doesn't appear to be doing much

Have you checked the power profile settings? you want adaptive rather than optimal

[Manfred]

Something is wrong - your render times are magnitudes too high. My render times with GTX 960 usually are < 10 ms. Some resources are overloaded. Please check this in Win Task Manager or use GPU-Z.

Do you have 2GB of VRAM or 4 GB on the GTX 1050TI?

Also check that madVR makes HDR passthrough to the TV. On the TV, Deep Colour (or similar naming depending on the TV vendor) must be enabled.

[RD James]

A 1050Ti is supposed to be ~25% faster than a GTX 960 so I will do some testing on my older system.
I expect that it should be able to handle 4K HDR playback with the right config, but madVR performance seems to have gone down a lot recently for me.

[RD James]

OK, I've done some testing on my i5-2500K / GTX 960 system.
I downclocked the 2500K to 3.1 GHz, as I believe that's the all-core frequency for an i5-2400.
 
There are two potential issues here:
1. The madVR config.
2. Media Center's hardware acceleration settings.
 
The default MC config seemed outdated as it's using D3D9 presentation, so what I first did was download the latest madVR and reset the config.

• Close Media Center
• Download the latest version of madVR here.
  
• Extract it to: "%APPDATA%\J River\Media Center 24\Plugins\madvr\" and replace all files.
• Run "restore default settings.bat" in that directory.

At 4.5 GHz, which I typically run my 2500K system at, nothing else was necessary for smooth playback of 24 FPS 4K HDR video.
At 3.1 GHz, CPU usage was a problem.
 
This is because Media Center defaults to DXVA2 (Copy-Back) for hardware decoding.
Copy-back is preferred as some features like Zoom Control are disabled without it, but if you have a slower CPU it may struggle at 4K.
The DXVA2 (Native) or D3D11 (Native) decoders were able to handle playback without dropping frames.
 
To change this, you need to either install the latest version of LAV Filters or register MC's LAV Video decoder to the system.
For the latter:

• Open a command prompt with admin permissions.
• Run "cd %APPDATA%\J River\Media Center 24\Plugins\lav64\"
• Run "regsvr32 LAVVideo.ax"

This is my preferred method, as it means that it stays in sync with MC auto-updating LAV Filters.
 
For either option, you now need to tell MC to use LAV's Video Decoder:

• In Media Center: Tools > Options > Video > General Video Settings > Video Mode: Advanced - Custom
• Custom Video Mode Settings
• Start with the following settings: Red October HQ
• Now add LAV Video decoder.
• Open LAV Video Decoder's Properties and select the DXVA2 (Native) decoder.

Hopefully 4K HDR videos will play smoothly now.
With slower GPUs, there are options in madVR that will reduce the GPU load further, but the 1050 Ti should be faster than the 960 I was testing with.
And for what it's worth, it's reporting ~2.5/4.0 GB VRAM usage.

[Hendrik]

Download the latest version of madVR here.

Don't do that if you use Blu-ray Menus in Media Center, because that'll break them. The latest versions of madVR are buggy in that regard, hence why we don't use them.

Also, both D3D11 or DXVA2 (native) modes have drawbacks why its also not used by default. One clobbers the quality, and one disables a bunch of features like Deinterlacing.

[JimH]

It would be better to not try to support customizing madVR at all here.  doom9 is a better place for that discussion.

I realize your intentions are good.

[mattkhan]

FWIW I think simple madvr config for different hardware should be a reasonable topic to discuss here particularly if it relates to MC functionality working or not. The reason being that doom9 will invariably say "ask jriver" or alternatively Hendrik will reply himself over there which seems a bit pointless.

I agree pixel peeping config is unambiguously a topic for doom9.

[RD James]

Don't do that if you use Blu-ray Menus in Media Center, because that'll break them. The latest versions of madVR are buggy in that regard, hence why we don't use them.

Ah, I don't use the menus so I was not aware of that.
I suggested the latest version of madVR because it offers performance and quality improvements for HDR playback (specifically for HDR > SDR conversion).

Also, both D3D11 or DXVA2 (native) modes have drawbacks why its also not used by default. One clobbers the quality, and one disables a bunch of features like Deinterlacing.

Yes, I did mention that many features do not work with 'native' decoding, however if the difference is smooth playback vs constantly dropping frames, I would choose the former.
 
Ideally it would be possible to use an expression so that it is only applied to 2160p videos - which would also eliminate my need to send 2160p videos to a separate zone, but I tried using "Compare([Height, 0], >, 1080)" as the condition and it didn't work.

FWIW I think simple madvr config for different hardware should be a reasonable topic to discuss here particularly if it relates to MC functionality working or not.

Having a "high performance" and "standard" profile for madVR seems like it would be useful.
In this case, it's likely the CPU causing these issues - at least it was on my test system when set to match the specs of an i5-2400.

[Hendrik]

I thought about providing different madVR profiles, maybe I'll revisit that idea some time.

If D3D11 mode doesn't become fully featured anytime soon that it might make a reasonable default, I might also think about somehow offering an easy way to opt into either DXVA2 Native or D3D11 for its 4K efficiency, but not sure how that would look.

[JimH]

FWIW I think simple madvr config for different hardware should be a reasonable topic to discuss here particularly if it relates to MC functionality working or not.

Since we introduced Red October, we've recommended using it.  Customization of madVR isn't something JRiver recommends or supports.

[RD James]

[…] I might also think about somehow offering an easy way to opt into either DXVA2 Native or D3D11 for its 4K efficiency, but not sure how that would look.

It may not be the solution that you use for MC - or perhaps it could work like that behind the scenes, but do you think it might be possible for the Condition field in custom video mode settings to support expressions that output a 1 or 0, like the example I posted above?
That would work very well for only enabling/disabling custom settings above a certain resolution.
My system can only run SVP on videos up to 1440p in resolution before it starts dropping frames, which means that I have to send 2160p videos to a separate zone.
Reducing that to a single zone would be a massive improvement to my setup.

[fitbrit]

Since we introduced Red October, we've recommended using it.  Customization of madVR isn't something JRiver recommends or supports.

Jim, when RO was introduced it made a very complex system simple for everyone. You either had strong hardware or your did not, and you could choose one mode or the other. For me, it was probably the single biggest factor to stick with MC - you won my loyalty right there.

To be fair, though, the times are changing now. What was an ROHQ powerhouse system at the time of its release or even 2 years ago, is now not able to keep up with the latest video encoding technology, but can still brute force its way through 1080p videos.

2160p and HDR requires more complex and nuanced settings, and ROHQ as a default does not do well. For example, after resetting all my MadVR settings to default, it wouldn't even produce a picture with 2160p HDR. Some tweaking, and thus discussion of it, must be done for functionality. Unless, of course, a third tier of RO is introduced that will work out of the box for those with the right systems. That would be in the spirit of RO, because the formats that exist have once again introduced complexity.

[fitbrit]

Something is wrong - your render times are magnitudes too high. My render times with GTX 960 usually are < 10 ms. Some resources are overloaded. Please check this in Win Task Manager or use GPU-Z.

Do you have 2GB of VRAM or 4 GB on the GTX 1050TI?

Also check that madVR makes HDR passthrough to the TV. On the TV, Deep Colour (or similar naming depending on the TV vendor) must be enabled.

I have 4GB.
HDR passthrough is set in MadVR for the correct device. Deep colour is available for all HDMI inputs on the TV.

I tried a local copy of the files, rather than the NAS, and the issue was the same.
Soon it may be moot, as I shall be switching to a faster system, but it would be nice to get it to work with the current configuration.

[fitbrit]

One possibly big factor I neglected to mention. My AVR doesn't support 4K and HDR. Therefore I am running HDMI directly to the TV, and playing sound via the AVR by extending the display. The second device (the AVR) is not rendering the video, but is using a static 1080p image coming form the same video card. Could this be overtaxing the 1050Ti too much?

I plan to buy a new AVR as soon as I can afford it though, and perhaps that would be money better spent than a faster video card.

[tzr916]

How are you doing that? Describe your physical connections?
What happens if you disable that secondary (audio) setup and test?

[Hendrik]

One possibly big factor I neglected to mention. My AVR doesn't support 4K and HDR. Therefore I am running HDMI directly to the TV, and playing sound via the AVR by extending the display. The second device (the AVR) is not rendering the video, but is using a static 1080p image coming form the same video card. Could this be overtaxing the 1050Ti too much?

You could find out by disabling that part for testing. But I wouldn't expect it to be a huge problem.

[RD James]

One possibly big factor I neglected to mention. My AVR doesn't support 4K and HDR. Therefore I am running HDMI directly to the TV, and playing sound via the AVR by extending the display. The second device (the AVR) is not rendering the video, but is using a static 1080p image coming form the same video card. Could this be overtaxing the 1050Ti too much?

I plan to buy a new AVR as soon as I can afford it though, and perhaps that would be money better spent than a faster video card.

It seems unlikely. Check CPU and GPU usage in Task Manager while a video is playing.

[fitbrit]

It seems unlikely. Check CPU and GPU usage in Task Manager while a video is playing.

Hmm. 100% GPU usage as suspected. I bought this card second-hand and I wonder whether it is not performing as expected. I shall do a JRiver benchmark on my system to see.
Image benchmark: 3559, overall: 2985.

[fitbrit]

OK, I've done some testing on my i5-2500K / GTX 960 system.
I downclocked the 2500K to 3.1 GHz, as I believe that's the all-core frequency for an i5-2400.
 

Thanks for going to such lengths to tackle this issue!

[rec head]

Since we introduced Red October, we've recommended using it.  Customization of madVR isn't something JRiver recommends or supports.

The problem is that getting 4K, HDR and 3D all seem to require tweaking. I like being able to ask the people that are using the same software as me how to get that software working. Since most of the support given for 4K, HDR and 3D (and all of MC) isn't directly from JRiver anyway I don't see what the problem is.

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,43159.0.html

[mike0zero]

Jim, when RO was introduced it made a very complex system simple for everyone. You either had strong hardware or your did not, and you could choose one mode or the other. For me, it was probably the single biggest factor to stick with MC - you won my loyalty right there.

To be fair, though, the times are changing now. What was an ROHQ powerhouse system at the time of its release or even 2 years ago, is now not able to keep up with the latest video encoding technology, but can still brute force its way through 1080p videos.

2160p and HDR requires more complex and nuanced settings, and ROHQ as a default does not do well. For example, after resetting all my MadVR settings to default, it wouldn't even produce a picture with 2160p HDR. Some tweaking, and thus discussion of it, must be done for functionality. Unless, of course, a third tier of RO is introduced that will work out of the box for those with the right systems. That would be in the spirit of RO, because the formats that exist have once again introduced complexity.

I think an option to have an auto config dependant on video source work behind the scenes would be extremely useful and I would encourage the developers to look at implementing this.

With the introduction of 4K and HDR my library is gradually moving over to the newer formats and therefore this type of feature becomes even more critical to ensure a smooth and complete media player, I know of no other systems that can offer this type of performance, maybe a Lumagen can, but at great expense.

[tij]

I like tweaking MadVR to get out most out of my hardware ... please never take it away

If you do not officially support tweaking that’s understandable and fine by me (with so many possible hardware combinations it would be nightmare to officially support this) ... but that’s what it’s great about this forum ... if developers don’t officially endorse feature, plenty of folks that got it working are willing to help you out

Thanks to all ppl that help me set up mine

[Manfred]

For 4K playback to my experience the standard config for Red October HQ is not adequate any more.

I think it would nice to add two profiles for 2D 4K playback:

- Red October HQ 4K

- Red October HQ 4K HDR

With the current standard setting of Red October HQ you don't get Demo's like "LG Cymatic Jazz HDR10" or "Sony 4K HDR Camp or "ok h265 10bit 62Mbit 59fps LG Chess HDR" running.

For smooth playback they require tweaking the madVR config!!!

[JimH]

OK.  Do you want to propose specific settings?

[tij]

For 4K playback to my experience the standard config for Red October HQ is not adequate any more.

I think it would nice to add two profiles for 2D 4K playback:

- Red October HQ 4K

- Red October HQ 4K HDR

With the current standard setting of Red October HQ you don't get Demo's like "LG Cymatic Jazz HDR10" or "Sony 4K HDR Camp or "ok h265 10bit 62Mbit 59fps LG Chess HDR" running.

For smooth playback they require tweaking the madVR config!!!

Demo are not really real reflection on what consumer will get ... 60fps 2160p ... unlikely

My guess ... at most TV will go 2160i ... Blu-ray 2160p24 ... for those RO works just fine for
casual user

[jmone]

There are 1,000s of possible madVR setting combinations and it is all a bit of a (dark) art form.  Many users have a pretty good range of settings that work well, so how about a system which allows users to load/share/try various madVR configurations without having to delve into the actual settings themselves?

You could have something like the old Plug-Ins area where users could Upload their settings with a description that others could download and try, or if that is too hard simply a thread?  You could after a bit even have a few generic pre-done ones like:
- MC Default (as it is now)
- High End Graphics Cards (eg nvidia 1080)
- Intel iGPU
- etc

It would be nice, simple, and importantly, user maintained.  JRiver would just need to provide the mechanism for the Upload/Download of the madVR settings.bin and the ability for users to discuss them.

[fitbrit]

Thanks for you last post, Nathan. I had given up and never saw it. On a whim, I gave it another shot. Success!

I had messed with MadVr to the point where the setting interface would just crash after a few seconds and disappear. I was managing with ROstd. I uninstalled and reinstalled MC24, and restored my library and settings, which changed nothing of course, 'cos it restored MadVR settings too.

I uninstalled an "external" version of MadVR I had downloaded, and reset everything to default settings using the batch file that is in the MC plugins MadVR folder. I then deleted the whole MadVR folder and let MC reinstall it upon first video playback. I tweaked a very few things, such as telling MadVR to what kind of device my TV was. What do you know? It works perfectly out of the box on default settings! 4K UHD HDR running with nary a dropped frame - only on skipping forward or backward for a second or two.