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[michael123]

Hi

Although I opened a ticket with Dirac, just in case maybe someone knows.

VST2 works, but VST3 shows an error by JRiver

[michael123]

I checked the dependencies, thinking that there might be some missing DLL - everything is fine.

What are the differences between VST3 and VST2 - from JRiver perspective?

Are there any limitations if I stay with VST2 ?

[Hendrik]

As far as I know, we don't support VST3.

[michael123]

I think FabFilter VST3 worked, but maybe I am mistaken

What are the differences between 2 and 3?

[michael123]

Dirac replied me that JRiver supports VST2 only

I could not find this information yesterday on the web
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSP

Whoever is code owner for this piece in JRiver guys, maybe you can update this page?

Regarding VST3 - does it add anything? Do we need it?

[mattkhan]

I added https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSP#VST_Versions to reflect this

[michael123]

Thanks.

[RD James]

What are the differences between 2 and 3?

https://www.steinberg.net/en/company/technologies/vst3.html

The main thing that would be relevant to Media Center would be the ability to process audio in 64-bit rather than 32-bit.

[denton1972]

JRiver does not process in 64bit???

[JimH]

JRiver's audio engine is completely 64 bit, even in the 32 bit version.  RD James must mean the VST plug-in itself.

[denton1972]

VST 64bit

[dtc]

From the Steinberg link

"VST3 plug-ins are generally able to process audio data in 64-bit."

I think that is what RD was referencing.

[mojave]

VST 64bit

The bit-depth of the audio is a completely separate issue. JRiver has done 64-bit processing on the audio for years even though it was a 32-bit program.

[RD James]

From the Steinberg link

"VST3 plug-ins are generally able to process audio data in 64-bit."

I think that is what RD was referencing.

Yes, it is.
After doing some testing, it looks like some VST2 plug-ins are able to process audio in 64-bit, but many cut it down to 32-bit.
The Bitter plug-in is good for testing this.
 
It's not clear to me from the site, but it seems like VST3 plug-ins process in 64-bit by default?
With the entire chain being 64-bit, plug-in order would matter less.

[michael123]

How do I force this bitter to be in chain after specific plugin rather than before?

Indeed, it receives 64-bit data, just verified.

How do I check that Dirac (in my case) outputs 64-bit?

[RD James]

How do I force this bitter to be in chain after specific plugin rather than before?

Indeed, it receives 64-bit data, just verified.

How do I check that Dirac (in my case) outputs 64-bit?

You can drag plug-ins to re-order them, and they are processed top to bottom.
Place Bitter immediately after another VST to check its output bit-depth.
I would also recommend setting Bitter to "process only when viewed" via the options in the upper-right corner.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

How do I force this bitter to be in chain after specific plugin rather than before?

Indeed, it receives 64-bit data, just verified.

How do I check that Dirac (in my case) outputs 64-bit?

I don't know for sure whether or not Dirac can in any version maintain 64-bits.  But, why is that important, given the only algorithmically estimated adjustments to signal it does via EQ, which are based on time-windowed, acoustic readings averaged from multiple, inexact mic points including random ambient noise in the room? 

There is a key difference between accuracy and precision.  A 64-bit result might be more precise than a 32-bit or 24-bit one, but it might be no more accurate within the tolerances of the measurement and processing algorithms.  You have no doubt heard the phrase "false precision".  It strikes me that Dirac would be guilty of that at 64-bits.

Don't get me wrong.  I love Dirac, and I would not be without it.  But, I frankly see no  benefit if it does 64-bits.

[michael123]

You can drag plug-ins to re-order them, and they are processed top to bottom.
Place Bitter immediately after another VST to check its output bit-depth.
I would also recommend setting Bitter to "process only when viewed" via the options in the upper-right corner.

Thanks a lot, indeed.

[michael123]

I don't know for sure whether or not Dirac can in any version maintain 64-bits.  But, why is that important, given the only algorithmically estimated adjustments to signal it does via EQ, which are based on time-windowed, acoustic readings averaged from multiple, inexact mic points including random ambient noise in the room? 

There is a key difference between accuracy and precision.  A 64-bit result might be more precise than a 32-bit or 24-bit one, but it might be no more accurate within the tolerances of the measurement and processing algorithms.  You have no doubt heard the phrase "false precision".  It strikes me that Dirac would be guilty of that at 64-bits.

Don't get me wrong.  I love Dirac, and I would not be without it.  But, I frankly see no  benefit if it does 64-bits.

Yes, I understand what you're saying.
Anyway, the output of recent beta seems to be not limited to 32bit, using this plugin

Then again the question for curiosity - what VST3 would give us?

[Frobozz]

You can try using the DDMF Metaplugin to host the Dirac VST3. The new version of DDMF Metaplugin supports VST3. It may work. I use the DDMF Metaplugin to get Waves Nx to work in JRiver Media Center.

https://ddmf.eu/metaplugin-chainer-vst-au-rtas-aax-wrapper/

[michael123]

Dirac comes in the form of VST2 and VST3, so that's not a problem.
It works well

Just wanted to see if we lose anything by using VST2

[~OHM~]

Dirac comes in the form of VST2 and VST3, so that's not a problem.
It works well

Just wanted to see if we lose anything by using VST2

I went and looked at Dirac, just to see what all the chatter was about, downloaded it (free trial version if it make a difference) and of course can't get it to work....but I can't find VST2. any ideas or a link to VST2 would be much obliged...

[Frobozz]

Dirac comes in the form of VST2 and VST3, so that's not a problem.
It works well

Just wanted to see if we lose anything by using VST2

I don't know if you lose anything by not having VST3 support. My concern is that some plugins I want may stop supporting VST and only have a VST3 version at some point in the future. So it would be nice to get VST3 support in JRiver Media Center, along with better VST support for older (non-VST3) plugins.

My solution for all that has been to use the DDMF Metaplugin. It costs $50, but is worth it if you really want to be able to run a plugin in JRiver Media Center. The only way I'm able to get the Waves Nx plugin to work in JRiver is to host the plugin in DDMF Metaplugin. The regular VST version of Waves Nx won't work in JRiver. But it will work in the DDMF Metaplugin while the Metaplugin is hosted in JRiver Media Center.

I haven't actually tried any VST3 plugins in DDMF Metaplugin. DDMF Metaplugin supports VST3, I just haven't experimented with that yet.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I went and looked at Dirac, just to see what all the chatter was about, downloaded it (free trial version if it make a difference) and of course can't get it to work....but I can't find VST2. any ideas or a link to VST2 would be much obliged...

The Dirac VST plugins are only available as Betas by request.  They will be available as part of upcoming release 2.0 of Dirac, though no specific date is given.  I have been using a VST Beta for over a year with very good results.

In the mean time, you can calibrate Dirac with their DLCT tool and then select the filter it calculates in their Dirac Audio Processor (DAP).  Output from JRiver is directed to the DAP, and DAP output is directed to your DAC or other device within the DAP.

Dirac calibration requires an omnidirectional microphone, which is purchased separately, ideally a calibrated one.

I find Dirac excellent, and it is also a favorite of Kal Rubinson at Stereophile.

[michael123]

I am talking about the new beta.
Seems like Dirac solved the gain issues, as I heard distortion sometimes. On the other hand, they removed the gain adjustment from the VST

New Dirac comes with both VST2 and VST3, and there is no WDM anymore

[~OHM~]

The Dirac VST plugins are only available as Betas by request.  They will be available as part of upcoming release 2.0 of Dirac, though no specific date is given.  I have been using a VST Beta for over a year with very good results.

In the mean time, you can calibrate Dirac with their DLCT tool and then select the filter it calculates in their Dirac Audio Processor (DAP).  Output from JRiver is directed to the DAP, and DAP output is directed to your DAC or other device within the DAP.

Dirac calibration requires an omnidirectional microphone, which is purchased separately, ideally a calibrated one.

I find Dirac excellent, and it is also a favorite of Kal Rubinson at Stereophile.

ok I have one of those microphones that came with my receiver...so I should run it and see what happens...thanks

[Fitzcaraldo215]

ok I have one of those microphones that came with my receiver...so I should run it and see what happens...thanks

Well, you could try, but it might be a total mismatch, and the mic probably will not be properly calibrated for its own response going into a PC.  You are not likely to get a result that really shows you what Dirac can do.  It's kinda like putting regular gas into a Ferrari or driving it on under inflated tires.  It might work, but it won't perform as it should.

Best to use a UMIK-1 or similar USB mic, preferably one individually calibrated, like those from Cross Spectrum. 

[~OHM~]

got it...thanks

[michael123]

Well, you could try, but it might be a total mismatch, and the mic probably will not be properly calibrated for its own response going into a PC.  You are not likely to get a result that really shows you what Dirac can do.  It's kinda like putting regular gas into a Ferrari or driving it on under inflated tires.  It might work, but it won't perform as it should.

Best to use a UMIK-1 or similar USB mic, preferably one individually calibrated, like those from Cross Spectrum.

My calibrated Daytona from Cross Spectrum is on retirement plan
UMIK-1 with USB is a breeze to use
https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1