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[JimH]

The video poll is making me dizzy.   We have our hands full building and maintaining JRiver systems on Windows, Linux, OSX, iOs, Android.  We're about to extend this by building parts of MC on Android.

In general, we're now seeing an increasingly complex computing environment.  Windows's dominance is fading, OSX is blooming, phones are making those irrelevant, etc.

We're also seeing an exploding number of services available.  Music streaming, Netflix, Amazon, Google, Youtube.  These are encumbered by some pretty ugly rule sets, usually at the insistence of the content producers.  In the past, we've done nice integrations with these, sometimes taking half a man year, then seen the rug pulled out from under us.  I'm thinking of Netflix.

So maybe that's the way things will go.  People will put up with a hundred different apps for a hundred services, and the quality will be pitiful.

What's a Little Engine like JRiver to do?

[jmone]

“Data!data!data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay.”

This is a good site for looking at market share.  Here are some showing the trends over the last 5 years (you can make your own).

All OS : There are now more Andriod devices than windows but it seems to have stabilised at around 40% each.
Desktop OS : Windows continues to be vastly dominant and will be for some time.  OSX is growing and Linux continues to be a tiny minority.
Mobile OS : Andriod continues to grow at the expense of all others, even iOS.

[Awesome Donkey]

Yeah, all the DRM and the private APIs has been pretty disheartening to see over the last couple years, especially since Netflix yanked their public API.

I suppose you guys could do what Kodi has done, setup a addons framework where third-party developers can develop video service addons (e.g. Netflix) for MC. There's issues to this though, the moment somebody creates an addon used for piracy, that'll get the MPAA (and whomever else) after you guys, even though you guys didn't create the plugin or distribute it. I suppose you could control the use of available addons and not allow custom repositories and whatnot, still, it's a lot of time and money to do that.

Or... you guys could just wait and see what happens in the market and the trends and just keep doing what you're doing now... allowing users to playback their media whether or not it's audio, video, images, TV, etc. I believe that's MC's ultimate strong point. I care very little for streaming (for one, my Internet speed is currently too slow - I can barely do 720p, much less 1080p or 4K). I rather rip all my discs and have them all available in MC when I want them. I'm about to finally use MC for its video capabilities (took me long enough, just recently got a 4K HDR TV) and I'm looking forward to having all my music and video files together in one place where I can watch them anytime on any of my devices around my house (thanks to Panel, JRemote and MO 4Media).

Or if you wanted to go the extreme... you guys could always start your own streaming service. You're already doing radio now, so it's the next logical step. Though, it'd probably be VERY expensive to do that.

Huh, another idea just occurred to me (it's kinda related to a streaming service)... you could set up some servers and offer users to purchase storage space in a JRiver cloud service, allow them to upload their files (music, video, images, etc.) and allow them to stream their own media that they uploaded to said cloud service to any device that's connected to MC (or a remote or Panel), even outside of the local network (which can be difficult to setup with remotes/Panel, usually requiring a static IP address and open ports - this would get around that hurdle). Have it connected to a centralized account (e.g. the Dr. Who/Radio JRiver account). I mean, think about it... I know a lot of people that are not satisfied with the selections streaming services have (like Netflix) and videos to stream are always coming and going. Let's also say they also have a lot of physical media (e.g. CDs, DVDs, Blu-rays, etc.) that they wish they could watch via an existing streaming service but either a) it's not available on the streaming service or b) in the case of Amazon, it's available but it's not free - you have to purchase it. They could digitize all their physical media, upload it to the cloud streaming service, and watch it on ANY device. I've never seen a "create your own personal streaming service with your own files" type of thing. Could create and corner the market for such a thing. JCloud! JStream!

Okay, I'll be quiet now.

[Manfred]

You have not a "Little Engine" 

I am using MC now since 5 years - It's simply great and has giving me a lot of enjoyment of my media. Thank you very much for this!

My POV:

- I have a MC based server without a video card to store, manage, backup my media data. I am very happy with that!

-> The challenge starts for me with the media renderer. In my environment it's a HTPC with High End NVidia GPU and Sotm USB + ifi iPower as Audio output.

->It would be nice to have two device's with the following capabilities to be discussed:
     - One High End Device with high quality digital output
     - One cheaper device
     
Should something like NVIDIA Shield or Apple TV as an example.

For the High End Media Renderer Device:
     - High End Quality Digital Output (SPDIF RCA/AES, compared to USB does not need drivers to update)
     - High End 4k video rendering without madVR and GPU, e.g. like Sony's 4K HDR Prozessor X1™ Extreme chip
     - No fan's
     - Integration of MC in One UI with to be defined streaming services
     - no local storage of media data
     - A Classical Remote
     - Speech as Remote like Siri
     - Nice Case like "Chord Hugo"

My Wish and POV 

[Z0001]

I would say that Apple and Android are not going anywhere. That's where customers will be, it's where they are, across different devices. But they cater for the masses. A product that is differentiated by a fundamental focus on AV quality and integration of the multiple (and growing) consumption channels, I would have thought, on those platforms, have been successful. I hate the idea that consumers are highjacked to a platform AND a retailer. A service that allows consumers to tailor their experience with minimal effort, integrate what features and sources they need, and simplify it for their purposes would be a wonderful product and service.

[tjobbins]

It's great to hear that an Android version is already being considered / in the works.

I think this is a great area for MC to move into.  I already own three "Android TV boxes", such as the H96 Pro+.

These are fantastic media players:  less than $100 for octa-core, 3GB RAM, 32GB ROM, capable of up to 4K playback from H264 and H265 codecs, dual-band WiFi, ethernet, USB 3, BlueTooth, lots of remote control options, and a huge range of other content apps available to easily install (Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, Catch up TV services, etc.)

I use Kodi's DLNA client to access my MC library but this is far from satisfactory.  I would love to have a native MC client I could install on these boxes which could then use the standard Library Sync to connect to a single MC server.

As I mentioned in the other thread, I'd be happy to buy a separate Android license (on top of my Master license purchase) through the Play store.   And I think availability on Play could open up a new range of customers.  There are millions of Kodi users out there, and while they're used to not paying for Kodi (and indeed the stuff they watch through Kodi, most of them ), there must be a lot of them who have invested heavily in hardware and content, and would love a much more sophisticated programme to manage it.   Kodi's library management features are almost non-existent, and MC will be a breath of fresh air to many users I am sure.

I don't know if the plan is for a full version of MC on Android, or just playback components.  Either would be fine for me, and I can see that it might not make a huge amount of sense to have the full software on Android.   I would always have a Library Server so for me, the Android part would only need to be the Library Client, Theatre View and the ability to playback (with local decoding, not relying on server transcoding).   

Then again if MC already runs on a Raspberry Pi, why not have the full thing on Android.  There are plenty of people out there accessing Android boxes with a keyboard and mouse (or more likely, One of very menu available mini handheld combo mouse/keyboard units)

Anyway, I'm greatly looking forward to seeing what J River brings to Android users.

[tyler69]

MC is a great product, mainly due to its wide offerring in functions. However, where it lacks behind (imo) is the integration into other systems. When we talk about Windows/macOS/Linux, the first thing should be feature parity (when possible) and the second thing should be native integration (GUI usability) into these OS's (though I do have a master licence, I do not use the Linux version, my notes are based on the macOS version). While features in the macOS version are mostly on par with the Windows version, the GUI does not give me a "macOS feeling" (Linux version is even more behind the Windows version with regard to features if I recall correctly and the primary reason why I most probably will build a Windows-based server instead of a Linux-based one).

This brings me to the point of supporting tvOS/iOS/Android. I believe Apple users are looking from a different angle on software as Android users do. Android probably offers more flexibility to users as well as to developers, so Apple/iOS development might put more strain on the resources. However, with MC's feature flexibility, I am sure it is a welcome tool for macOS users and would be for iOS/tvOS users. However, when I look at the media center apps for AppleTV, I can't imagine a "1:1" port of the windows/macOS version would be successful (see above) or even possible. What I can imagine (and find interesting) is a revised theatre view for a possible tvOS app. This could be derived from a refreshed theatre view in general. This of course is easier said than done and greatly depends on MC's backend I think.

Regarding integration into services like Netflix, I am not sure that is the way to go for JRiver. I'd probably rather look into integrating MC into ecosystems (Apple & Google) without trying to integrate services like Netflix, Amazon etc.. Example: Apple offers the "TV" app on their AppleTV. It is possible to integrate a media app into tvOS in a way that the media maintained by the app is availble also in the "TV" app. So the user needs to browse only 1 app which offers media from different "systems". Amazon prime does this. So while I do have an Amazon prime app on my AppleTV, I can use the Apple's "TV" app to browse also Amazon prime content.
Another thought is to use this kind of integration for the streaming services (although I do not know if Apple allows this): Similar to opening the TV app, one could open MC and browse through media that is offered by Netflix or Amazon (assuming they are installed).

I guess the essence of my thoughts is to rather look into integrating into the ecosystems (Android, iOS, ...) than integrating providers (Netflix, ...) and secondly to first do existing things right, then diversify. 

[rec head]

Unless there is a big change for the better I wouldn't bother worrying about streaming service integration. Would I like having NF and Amazon Prime within MC? Yes it would be great but the fact is Rokus and other streaming boxes are cheap and easy. I gave up on using a browser for streaming years ago for a bunch of reasons.

MC for all my local media is great and I can't see leaving it.

Android TV integration would be awesome. I would get an Nvidia Shield tomorrow and run an MC client on it. It would be so easy to have MC in more locations in the house. If there was a library server app on Synology I don't know how much I'd use the HTPC.

[tjobbins]

- I have a MC based server without a video card to store, manage, backup my media data. I am very happy with that!

I do the same. Since a few weeks ago my MC Library Server runs in a VirtualBox Virtual Machine on my home server/NAS.  A VM dedicated to just running MC.

Before that I used my HTPC as the Library Server.  But I found it annoying that when I wanted to import files I couldn't do so if someone was watching stuff on the HTPC.   So I prefer to have a completely separate server, which I access through RDP, and which my MC Library Clients and DLNA clients (Android TV boxes with Kodi) all connect to.

One important effect of this is that I need all video decoding to happen on the client.  With no GPU in the server, any kind of transcoding is not really possible.   This is what stopped me trying out the current JRiver Android client (can't remember its name), because it required that the server transcode everything and this took my MC virtual machine to 100% CPU instantly, even on 720p content.  Even with a GPU-equipped server, it would still be a great waste to have a 4K capable media box that wasn't decoding anything.

So I think local decode capability is a must for any MC that runs on Android or Apple TV.

[tjobbins]

Android TV integration would be awesome. I would get an Nvidia Shield tomorrow and run an MC client on it. It would be so easy to have MC in more locations in the house. If there was a library server app on Synology I don't know how much I'd use the HTPC.

This is exactly what I have found.  Even without an MC client, setting up Kodi with a basic menu to access MC's DLNA client is the work of a few minutes, and allows me to access my MC recorded content in the bedroom, kitchen, etc.  These devices are so small and lightweight I literally velcro them to the back of the TV, so neither they nor their trailing wires are visible.

The NVidia Shield is awesome, but there are much cheaper options available.  The H96 Pro+ is my current recommendation, especially with the custom Android 7.1 ROMs available.  In the UK I can buy a 3GB/32GB version for about £60 on Amazon, with free next day delivery.  At that price it's an absolute no brainer as a media platform.

And like you say, streaming server integration is not a big issue.  With an Android device I simply install apps for Netflix, Prime Video, BBC iPlayer, and various other Catch up TV services.  I put them all on a basic Home Screen menu, alongside Kodi for MC content, and it's easy to select any of them then press Back or Home to return to the menu.  Having 3+ GB of RAM means switching apps is very quick and painless.

Only downside is that it does require a chunky remote - a trackpad/keyboard combo like this - because many of those apps don't support simple up/down/left/right/Enter navigation.  You need to 'swipe' up and down using the trackpad.

That is one advantage of the Shield, where being an Android TV device I believe all its apps do support that simple control.  The downside is that I think it needs special versions of apps, so it won't necessarily support any/all Android apps.  For UK users for example, I believe not all the Catch up TV services are supported on the Shield (side loading is likely possible, but they still wouldn't support the simple remote control/navigation.)

Anyway, regardless of which device is used, these Android-based media boxes really are great.  They offer a wealth of possibilities at a really attractive price.  Having MC run natively on them would really make them perfect.

[Awesome Donkey]

I am a current MC on Mac user and I agree absolutely that the GUI could do with some work.   I am not a lifelong Mac user - just for the last few years - so I am not one of those who really cares about the "Mac feel".   I don't care, for example, that MC on Mac is basically identical to MC on Windows/Linux and that it doesn't follow Mac design conventions.

To be fair, MC doesn't really follow Windows or Linux guidelines either. It has its own engine for drawing windows and skins on all three platforms. MC is actually more like Steam in this regard, since Steam does the exact same thing on Windows/Mac/Linux/etc. Also like Steam, MC users can create their own skins to customize the look to their preferences.

Otherwise on macOS, try the Modern Cards: Grey Edition skin. It's purposely the "Mac-esk" skin, and it's likely as good as you're going to get to having a "Mac feel" with MC.

[tyler69]

One important effect of this is that I need all video decoding to happen on the client.  With no GPU in the server, any kind of transcoding is not really possible.

MC does not utilize the GPU for transcoding as far as I know.

[Scobie]

JRiver RESTful API Gateway.

[Z0001]

Ideal would be if MC had an Android TV client. People could stream their MC library to a TV or a 4k box. That would be a great simplification to providing MC content around the home - straight to the TV, no extra hardware needed. And with MC on Android TV all media content could be on one platform available in every high street.

[JimH]

Split Requests

[stevemac]

If I cannot have streaming services integrated into MediaCenter then the next best thing would be a JRiver app for Android TV and / or Tizen (Samsung TV) so users can watch whatever content they want with just the TV remote

Current set up here is

• MediaCenter running on a debian VM (on FreeNAS) acting as the central media server / library.
• MediaCenter (as a client) running on multiple small format PCs (Intel NUC & stick) - connected to TVs or amplifiers
• Samsung Smart TV using it's DLNA capabilities to pull content from central library
• JRemote (for IOS) to control what's playing on some of the clients
• and recently a MI BOX - still working out best solution for playing content from MediaCenter

The Samsung TV does a good job getting content from MediaCenter.  It plays everything I've thrown at it.  The only downside is it doesn't remember recently watched content or where you got up to if you partially watched a show or movie.  Having a JRiver app that had that covered would be great

& I'd pay for an Android TV or Tizen app for MediaCenter

Steve

[AndrewFG]

I think the API that you are looking for is called UPNP / DLNA...

MC can already read libraries from DLNA media servers, and already push media to DLNA renderers. The missing element is a toolkit to allow developers to wrap a streaming site/app in a DLNA wrapper, and thus make it accessible to/from MC.

PS I know what I am talking about here since my original Whitebear Media Server was exactly what I describe above towards the now sadly defunct Squeezebox ecosystem. Whitebear had two parts - namely 1) a server that talked to the Squeezebox server via its proprietary interface and re-exposed its library as a standard DLNA media server (DMS), and 2) a renderer that talked to any Squeezebox player via its proprietary interface and re-exposed it as a standard DLNA renderer (DMR).