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[cyberkul]

Hi!
Installed JRiver yesterday to replace a Minidsp 4x10HD. I`m using a RME Fireface 800 external sound card. So far I think that the learning curve is steep.. I plan to use The parametric EQ in JRiver, and create crossovers and phase correction in Rephase, and use this with the convolver in JRiver.

I have found a few great guides here and elsewhere, but some pieces are missing. So far I have done the following setup in JRiver:

In Output Format I selected Output channels 7.1, No up or downmixing.
Didn`t touch the samplerate

Under Parametric EQ (why is there two?)
I copied the left channel to Center, Rear Left and Left Surround
I copied the right channel to Sub, Rear Right and Right surround.
This seems to map correctly to the RME outputs from 1 to 8.

I have enabled the WDM-driver, and I use the RME ASIO driver. I get sound, but the JRiver volume control doesn`t do anything. I tried the different volume options, like internal, system.. I can adjust the volume in the RME DSP Mixer, but would be more convenient to do it in JRiver, Would probably be wise to have an analog volume control between the RME output and the power amps?

Any advice and guidance is appreciated :-)

[mwillems]

Hi!
Installed JRiver yesterday to replace a Minidsp 4x10HD. I`m using a RME Fireface 800 external sound card. So far I think that the learning curve is steep.. I plan to use The parametric EQ in JRiver, and create crossovers and phase correction in Rephase, and use this with the convolver in JRiver.

I have found a few great guides here and elsewhere, but some pieces are missing. So far I have done the following setup in JRiver:

In Output Format I selected Output channels 7.1, No up or downmixing.
Didn`t touch the samplerate

You should probably use "stereo in a 7.1 channel container" rather than straight "7.1" in output channels to avoid upmixing everything to 7.1

Under Parametric EQ (why is there two?)

There are two for flexibility in ordering; they have the same filter options, you can just put them in different places in the chain (before or after convolution for example).

I copied the left channel to Center, Rear Left and Left Surround
I copied the right channel to Sub, Rear Right and Right surround.
This seems to map correctly to the RME outputs from 1 to 8.

I have enabled the WDM-driver, and I use the RME ASIO driver. I get sound, but the JRiver volume control doesn`t do anything. I tried the different volume options, like internal, system.. I can adjust the volume in the RME DSP Mixer, but would be more convenient to do it in JRiver, Would probably be wise to have an analog volume control between the RME output and the power amps?

Stick with internal volume for testing purposes.  When you say the volume control doesn't do anything, do you mean when using the WDM driver or when playing directly from JRiver?  Do you have more than one zone in jriver?  It should work if you use internal volume and you're adjusting the volume on the correct zone.

FWIW, I only use the digital volume control in JRiver (no analog controls), but I made sure to setup my post-JRiver gain structure such that max volume from JRiver would be very loud but not dangerous (using passive line attenuators).

[JimH]

I have enabled the WDM-driver, and I use the RME ASIO driver. I get sound, but the JRiver volume control doesn`t do anything. I tried the different volume options, like internal, system.. I can adjust the volume in the RME DSP Mixer, but would be more convenient to do it in JRiver.

That should work.  No idea why it didn't.  Did you try a reboot?

[cyberkul]

You should probably use "stereo in a 7.1 channel container" rather than straight "7.1" in output channels to avoid upmixing everything to 7.1

There are two for flexibility in ordering; they have the same filter options, you can just put them in different places in the chain (before or after convolution for example).

Stick with internal volume for testing purposes.  When you say the volume control doesn't do anything, do you mean when using the WDM driver or when playing directly from JRiver?  Do you have more than one zone in jriver?  It should work if you use internal volume and you're adjusting the volume on the correct zone.

FWIW, I only use the digital volume control in JRiver (no analog controls), but I made sure to setup my post-JRiver gain structure such that max volume from JRiver would be very loud but not dangerous (using passive line attenuators).

Thanks!
Default settings, so I guess there is only one zone? I have enabled the WDM-driver in JRiver, and checked that JRiver is default sound device in Windows. So I thought that all sound would play through JRiver, but apparently not. Volume doesn`t change when adjusting the volume slider in JRiver. Tried many of the different Volume Devices, and volume Modes.

Made one U-pad with three settings, 20, 30, and 40dB, to try on one output on the RME, but it didn`t turn out the way I expected. Less attenuation for some reason. Output of the RME is 75 Ohms, and the input of the Anaview amps is  about 1-12kOhms depending on frequency.  Should be suitable for an U-pad. Do you use balanced line attenuators like this? https://www.ebay.com/itm/XLR-BALANCED-ATTENUATOR-IN-LINE-VOLUME-10dB/401536182322?hash=item5d7d6be832:g:ZIwAAOSwBF1a9cJd

[cyberkul]

That should work.  No idea why it didn't.  Did you try a reboot?

I think so, will try again..

[mwillems]

Thanks!
Default settings, so I guess there is only one zone? I have enabled the WDM-driver in JRiver, and checked that JRiver is default sound device in Windows. So I thought that all sound would play through JRiver, but apparently not.

I don't understand what you mean?  Can you elaborate on the "apparently not"?

Volume doesn't change when adjusting the volume slider in JRiver. Tried many of the different Volume Devices, and volume Modes.

I'm not sure what a "volume device" is?  Can you confirm whether you're playing sound from a source outside of jriver (like a browser or another application) to the WDM driver or whether you're playing music from inside of JRiver's interface (i.e. using JRiver to play a music file)? Can you also confirm that you had "internal volume" selected when the volume control did not work?

Made one U-pad with three settings, 20, 30, and 40dB, to try on one output on the RME, but it didn`t turn out the way I expected. Less attenuation for some reason. Output of the RME is 75 Ohms, and the input of the Anaview amps is  about 1-12kOhms depending on frequency.  Should be suitable for an U-pad. Do you use balanced line attenuators like this? https://www.ebay.com/itm/XLR-BALANCED-ATTENUATOR-IN-LINE-VOLUME-10dB/401536182322?hash=item5d7d6be832:g:ZIwAAOSwBF1a9cJd

I use attenuators similar to those, but I got mine from parts express; I've had mixed results getting electronics from e-bay.

[~OHM~]

he must have exclusive set somewhere

[mwillems]

he must have exclusive set somewhere

I think so, but that's what's confusing me; setting WDM to exclusive will prevent most of the JRiver volume modes from working, but internal volume should still work (even then) because it doesn't care about device volumes.

[cyberkul]

I don't understand what you mean?  Can you elaborate on the "apparently not"?

I tested with Youtube, and I hear sound after starting up JRiver, except in Internal Mode. The volume control slider in JRiver doesn`t do anything in any mode, but I can adjust volume in the Hammerfall DSP Mixer. Also played a file inside JRiver. The same result. JRiver seems to cause the PC to crash. Several times today. Also, something is wrong with my library setup, no file is found. The files are located on a qnap nas. Thumbnails is shown, and the path seems correct. The files I`m able to play is located on the same pc as JRiver. 

I'm not sure what a "volume device" is?  Can you whether you're from playing sound from a source outside of jriver (like a browser or another application) to the WDM driver or whether you're playing music from inside of JRiver's interface (i.e. using JRiver to play a music file)? Can you also confirm that you had "internal volume" selected when the volume control did not work?

Under Audio - Device - Device Settings there is a field called Volume Device. There is at least 10 choices, eg Hammerfall DSP, AN 1+2 Hammerfall DSP .....and other functions and outputs on the RME soundcard.

I use attenuators similar to those, but I got mine from parts express; I've had mixed results getting electronics from e-bay.

I have similar experience..

[JimH]

Please use the quote tags.

[ quote ]
Text you are replying to
[ /quote ]
Your reply

But without spaces.  Removing the spaces, you will see this:

Text you are replying to

Your reply

[mwillems]

Wait, what's the "Hammerfall DSP"?  I thought you were trying to use the RME as your output?  Are you using youtube inside JRiver or in a browser outside of JRiver?  It might help if you could very carefully explain your signal chain/setup and settings that you're discussing, because it's hard to follow exactly what you're testing.  For example, you say that playing a file in JRiver provides the "same result" but then you mention (for the first time) a program crash (is that the "same result"?), but you don't mention whether the volume also doesn't work when playing a file in JRiver (unless that's the "same result"?). 

Try reporting something like:

With Volume set to Internal Volume, changing the volume does nothing.  The Signal chain is:
Youtube in External Browser --> JRiver WDM Driver as Windows Default Audio Device -->  RME selected as JRiver Audio Output Device (ASIO? WASAPI?)

Additionally, are you saying that you're getting sound output in all volume modes except internal volume which provides no sound at all?  That's very odd if so.  The only time I've ever personally seen crashes in MC with the WDM driver were when I had mistakenly selected the WDM driver as the JRiver output, which creates an infinite loop and obviously won't work correctly.

If JRiver's internal volume control mode doesn't work when playing a file directly from inside JRiver something is very wrong indeed; I've never encountered that situation.  One thing to check on: you can't change some settings during audio playback, you have to stop and start playback before they take effect.  Try setting the volume mode to internal when nothing is playing, and then start playback and test changing the volume (if you haven't tried that).

[cyberkul]

Wait, what's the "Hammerfall DSP"?  I thought you were trying to use the RME as your output?

Hammerfall is a RME technology that is used in several interfaces. The one I use now is a RME Multiface. I also have a RME Fireface 800, that I will compare with the Multiface later. The reason is that the Multiface can be had cheaply, and I want to find out if it is "good enough" as a D/A-converter for multiway, active speakers. The Multiface has 8 balanced, analog outputs.

Are you using youtube inside JRiver or in a browser outside of JRiver?  It might help if you could very carefully explain your signal chain/setup and settings that you're discussing, because it's hard to follow exactly what you're testing.  For example, you say that playing a file in JRiver provides the "same result" but then you mention (for the first time) a program crash (is that the "same result"?), but you don't mention whether the volume also doesn't work when playing a file in JRiver (unless that's the "same result"?).

With the same result I meant that volume doesn`t work, playing a file in JRiver, or playing a music video in Youtube in an outside web-browser. Volume mode in JRiver "Internal". JRiver WDM Driver as Windows Default Audio Device -->  RME selected as JRiver Audio Output Device, RME ASIO-driver

If JRiver's internal volume control mode doesn't work when playing a file directly from inside JRiver something is very wrong indeed; I've never encountered that situation.  One thing to check on: you can't change some settings during audio playback, you have to stop and start playback before they take effect.  Try setting the volume mode to internal when nothing is playing, and then start playback and test changing the volume (if you haven't tried that).

Tried to reboot, change mode, reboot again, play file etc.. Volume slider moves, but no change in volume. I don`t see any change in the DSP Total mix (The RME mixing application) either. If I play a file in JRiver in eg "Disabled" mode, and select "Internal", sound shuts off immediately.

[mwillems]

The only other thing I can think of that might do this is the "process independently of internal volume" checkbox in DSP studio (under the "options" link in the upper right hand corner of the DSP Studio window).  It's unchecked by default, and should only really ever be checked for visualizer DSP modules, but it can cause really weird results if it gets ticked for convolution or parametric EQ.  Can you check whether you might have ticked the "process independently of internal volume" checkbox in DSP studio (you'll need to look at each "block" as it can be checked separately for each PEQ block and the convolution block)?  That could cause JRiver to ignore internal volume.

[cyberkul]

The only other thing I can think of that might do this is the "process independently of internal volume" checkbox in DSP studio (under the "options" link in the upper right hand corner of the DSP Studio window).  It's unchecked by default, and should only really every be checked for visualizer DSP modules, but it can cause really weird results if it gets ticked for convolution or parametric EQ.  Can you check whether you might have ticked the "process independently of internal volume" checkbox in DSP studio (you'll need to look at each "block" as it can be checked separately for each PEQ block and the convolution block)?  That could cause JRiver to ignore internal volume.

Thanks  I`ll have a look.

[mwillems]

Thanks  I`ll have a look.

It occurred to me rereading my post that I didn't say what the desired state is; you want to make sure that "process independently" is *not* on (it should be unchecked).  When it's checked it can sometimes cause problems.

[cyberkul]

It seems that the problem was the old RME TotalMix mixing app. I installed the new version, TotalMix FX, and now JRiver  Internal volume works! Have to do some reading of the TotalMix FX basics to set up fader groups, necessary routing for external sources etc. Not bad at all that RME has provided support for the old Multiface interface in the most recent version of TotalMix FX!

But regarding JRiver, how safe is it to operate the RME interface/poweramps without a hardware volume control? With JRiver Internal volume, could other windows sounds be routed to the power amps at a different volume than set in JRiver?

[mwillems]

But regarding JRiver, how safe is it to operate the RME interface/poweramps without a hardware volume control? With JRiver Internal volume, could other windows sounds be routed to the power amps at a different volume than set in JRiver?

In terms of safety, I can say that I've had MC hooked up to a Steinberg UR824 feeding directly into my power amps for more than three years and have only had two "volume incidents" in that time.  Both were my fault, not MC's fault.  After the second one I installed passive inline attenuators so that the maximum output from JRiver would be mighty loud but not harmfully loud, but I did that as idiot-proofing (for me)/child-proofing (for my literal child).  So MC is plenty safe with power amps in my opinion, but the user is still a potential hazard 

In terms of other windows sounds, if the WDM driver is the system default, system sounds have to go through JRiver, which means they use JRiver's volume control.  You should consider turning on JRiver's volume protection feature and setting a maximum internal volume as well for added safety.  Volume Protection resets the volume to 20% after half an hour without music playing (so you're never surprised by loud volume) and makes it harder to turn up the volume very loud accidentally (by rate limiting volume increases).

[cyberkul]

Thanks! Tried the volume protection feature, works well. Now I got
to find the error in connecting to my library before proceeding with
crossovers, eq etc..