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[afalout]

Hello all,

I am evaluating MC trial version to see weather I can use it to play SACD ISO images to my Sony STR-DN1080 receiver over DLNA.

I have read and followed advice from several threads I found on this forum, this one probably being closest to what I am trying to do:

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,111822.msg777268.html#msg777268

Above discussion ends with "SUCCESS!" statement, and "Can now stream DSD over DLNA" explanation, but note that it does not mention weather it can play SACD ISO.

And that is my problem - I CAN natively play .dsf and .dff files extracted from the same SACD ISO, that I CANNOT play in the ISO format.

When I try, I fist get "There was a problem controlling the selected DLNA device", followed by "Something went wrong with the playback".

DLNA server configuration is obviously fine for playing DSD from .dsf and .dff formatted files, and I see no options that would affect SACD ISO playback specifically.

FileAssociations.xml contains:
      <Item Name="dff">audio/x-dsd</Item>
      <Item Name="dsf">audio/x-dsd</Item>
      <Item Name="dsd">audio/x-dsd</Item>
      <Item Name="sacd">audio/x-sacd</Item>

Also obviously, Sony receiver has no issues playing streaming DSD over DLNA as native DSD.

So it seems, MD does something differently when streaming DSD from dsf/dff file, and exactly the same DSD stream from SACD ISO file...

Can anyone suggest what to do, and/or confirm weather they can play SACD ISO files as native DSD over DLNA?

Any advice much appreciated.
Andrej

[bob]

Individual .dff or .dsf files as you found are played by some renderers however I don't know of any DLNA devices that will play an SACD iso over DLNA.

[afalout]

Bob - ISO is a file system format for optical media (disc). Individual files reside on the file system.

MC reads files from file system, and streams file contents via DLNA. It just happens that the file system it will read this files, happens to be ISO, and not Windows file system (NTFS).

ISO contains the SAME EXACT .dff and/or .dsf files - which extracted from ISO filesystem (using https://www.sonore.us/iso2dsd.html) and played from NTFS filesystem MC plays successfully.

Therefore, the "DLNA devices that will play an SACD iso over DLNA" is not needed, and does not exist.

Problem I am seeing is likely caused by a difference in MC's behavior when reading DSD files from ISO file system, as opposed to reading the same files from other file systems (in my case, NTFS).

Thanks,
Andrej

[bob]

Bob - ISO is a file system format for optical media (disc). Individual files reside on the file system.

MC reads files from file system, and streams file contents via DLNA. It just happens that the file system it will read this files, happens to be ISO, and not Windows file system (NTFS).

ISO contains the SAME EXACT .dff and/or .dsf files - which extracted from ISO filesystem (using https://www.sonore.us/iso2dsd.html) and played from NTFS filesystem MC plays successfully.

Therefore, the "DLNA devices that will play an SACD iso over DLNA" is not needed, and does not exist.

Problem I am seeing is likely caused by a difference in MC's behavior when reading DSD files from ISO file system, as opposed to reading the same files from other file systems (in my case, NTFS).

Thanks,
Andrej

The files on your NTFS filesystem are an iso of the SACD correct?
MC plays those files locally since it has the ability to play a track from the iso however DLNA is file based and the file in question IS the .iso so it would be the renderer that would need to unpack the tracks from the .iso and I don't know of any that do.

[afalout]

Bob - I think you misunderstood how this works.

MC reads the file from the operating system file system. In my case, FS is NTFS, file is .iso (image of an optical media file system)
ISO (.iso) is an image of a file systems, and in the case of SACS ISO, it contains DSD files (.dsf/.dff/etc).
MC reads the ISO FS, accessing the files on it.
Then MC streams the **contents** of those files, just as it would if it read them directly from the Operating System FS.

The receiving side (DLNA renderer, in my case Sony receiver) knows nothing about NTFS or ISO file systems. It does not need to. It will receive the content of the audio file - not the ISO file.

Andrej

[Scobie]

The Renderer still needs to be able to support DLNA streaming of ISO files to achieve this, and there are not many that do.

I don't know about your DN1080,  but historically Sony devices in particular have not supported ISO streaming due in part to legal copy constraints,  given its connection to the movie industry.

[afalout]

Right... so here seems to be the problem:

Playing from ISO:

0016406: 90928: Playback: CPlayerZone::Play: Playing: <XMLFN version="1.0"><Item Name="Filename">C:\Users\andrej\Music\miles davis - steamin\Miles Davis - Steamin' With The Miles Davis Quintet.iso</Item>
.... stuff removed ....
<Item Name="FileType">sacd</Item>

And then:

0016453: 85176: Sharing Plugins: CHTTPListenerWorker::HandleRequest: TCP: 192.168.178.48: HEAD: http://192.168.178.20:52100/Music/F107.sacd

Problem is in sacd "FileType" and/or file extension (F107.sacd)

It should probably be "dsd" or "x-dsd" instead - as reported by WhiteBear:

audio/dsd   DSD   Fuzzy   *   *   *   No
audio/x-dsd   DSD   Fuzzy   *   *   *   No

When playing .dff file:

0007157: 77752: Playback: CPlayerZone::Play: Playing: <XMLFN version="1.0"><Item Name="Filename">C:\Users\andrej\Music\OK DSDIFF dff The Miles Davis Quintet.dff</Item>
....snip...
<Item Name="FileType">dff</Item><Item

0007203: 82940: Sharing Plugins: CHTTPListenerWorker::HandleRequest: TCP: 192.168.178.48: HEAD: http://192.168.178.20:52100/Music/F143.dff

....which plays OK.

Since editing File Associations.xml to have:

<Item Name="sacd">audio/x-dsd</Item>

does not change anything in the log file (after MC restart), I am guessing that this is not applied correctly - and I cant see "x-anything" in the log file...

Is anyone from JRiver able to comment?

Thanks,
Andrej

[Awesome Donkey]

in the case of SACS ISO, it contains DSD files (.dsf/.dff/etc).

Wait a sec...

For some reason, this doesn't seem right to me. Surely the data on a SACD or SACD ISO isn't specifically individual DFF/DSF files because as far as I know a SACD contains the uncompressed SACD/DSD data (or I suppose DST data depending on the disc) which can be ripped from the disc into a ISO. And I don't think there's individual files on a SACD either as from how I understand it it's all one big chunk of uncompressed DSD data (stereo and multi-channel are separate in the disc's structure) which the TOC contains the track information (track title, index/duration, etc.) for the SACD player. If I open a SACD ISO in a hex editor and search for track names, I can find them in several places within the ISO (for the stereo and multi-channel tracks) so that suggests to me they're stored in the TOC, which players like JRiver and foobar2000 can access and display when you load in a SACD ISO. I think this is why you think there's individual DFF/DSF files in a SACD ISO when there really isn't. When you use an app like sacd_extract or iso2dsd to extract DFF/DSF files, the app likely reads the TOC and extracts the uncompressed DSD data for each track, splits the track (probably using the index and/or duration), then packs/compresses the DSD data into a DFF or DSF container. This is why on Mac with the dff2dsf app you can take a DFF file, unpack it and repack it as a DSF file without doing any encoding/resampling.

I'm looking at the technical specifications and the disc structure of SACD right now and I see nothing anywhere about DSD data being specifically individual DFF/DSF files on a SACD. I'm just not seeing how DoPE could work with a SACD ISO and I can't find any information about that. I've read on the forums here that it's possible to mount an ISO and do it that way, but I'm not really sure about that either... I think Bob's right, I don't think it's possible to play SACD ISOs over DLNA with DoPE with any DoPE supporting DLNA device. Even if you could, it's probably for a very small handful of DLNA devices (if there's any at all) and there's probably a lot of hassle involved, at least that's what I'm thinking. This kinda reminds me of CDs. If you rip a CD into an ISO, the data contained isn't in WAV or FLAC, it's LPCM audio data. BTW, the SACD structure can look like this, depending on the disc: Lead-In > File System > TOC > 2 channel stereo > Multi-channel > Extra data > Lead-out

Finally, looking into this a little deeper I've read that DFF for example consists of multiple chunks (data blocks) while in comparison uncompressed DSD is in a single chunk. It's probably the same for DSF too consisting of multiple chunks, but I'm low on time to do a more thorough investigation (when I get more time I'm definitely going to read more about this). Of course, what I've read *could* be wrong, but I'll do more research later. Nonetheless my conclusion would be, if you're using DSD over DLNA (DoPE) you're likely better off using sacd_extract or iso2dsd to extract/create DFF or DSF files from the SACD ISO. It works pretty well with no issues - even gapless playback works with native DSD/DoP on a PC with the DFF/DSF files after extracting them. Not sure about gapless playback with DoPE though.

[JimH]

Just to be clear, neither ISO or DSD are supported by the DLNA or UPnP standards. 

A better way to do this might be to use a direct connection to the TV.

Or you set MC to convert to PCM.

[Scobie]

But i think what the OP is asking is whether, and if so how, MC can essentially mount or crack open an ISO file and stream its contents to a DLNA renderer, as it would when playing locally.

So would the answer be the same whether the ISO is an SACD image where the audio content is DSD (DLNA support of DSD notwithstanding as Jim points out) or if it was a CD audio / FLAC etc flavoured ISO file; I don't think this is how the MC/DLNA streaming model - or any DLNA streaming model - operates? When sending to a renderer as opposed to local playback, MC does not interrogate or open the ISO, it just sends, or attempts to send,  the .iso file itself...?

Happy to be corrected, this has been my understanding and more or less aligns with what Bob said earlier, interesting topic.

Scobie

[afalout]

Hi all,

Thanks for responding. Quite a bit of misunderstanding and half-understanding on this subject. Not the first time - DSD and DLNA are unfortunately still not well understood by many. Let's simplify:

MC DSD playback paths known to be working:

1) SACD ISO > MC > DSD data > ASIO USB driver > native DSD DAC = OK
2) SACD ISO > MC > DSD data > MC DSD DoPE encoder/packer > USB DAC driver > DoPE DSD DAC = OK
3) SACD ISO > MC > DSD data > MC DSD to PCM converter > DLNA > DLNA DAC = OK
4) SACD ISO > sacd_extract > .dsf/.dsf > MC > any playback path above = OK

Hopefully we all agree with above. From this, following conclusions can be made:

A. MC can read SACD ISO, and extract native DSD data (and meta-data) from it
B. MC can pass native DSD data from an SCAD ISO (or .dsf/.dst) to a USB DSD DAC, which can be played
C. MC can convert DSD data to PCM, or pack DSD data into DoPE, which can be played

Hopefully this is self-evident.

Now a question:

If MC can do all of the above, and specifically:

SACD ISO > MC > DSD data > MC DSD to PCM converter > DLNA > DLNA DAC = OK

Then why would it not be able to do:

SACD ISO > MC > DSD data > DLNA > DLNA DSD DAC

Eg. - just DONT convert it to PCM!

Especially as it can already do :

Playback Path A: .dsf/.dsf > MC >  DSD data > DLNA > DLNA DSD DAC = OK

   - Reading SACD ISO and retrieving DSD data (and meta-data) is already there - it works for USB DAC native DSD playback, it works for DoPE to USB DSD DAC, it works for DSD to PCM conversion to both DLNA and USB.
   - Sending DSD data to DLNA DSD renderer/DAC already works
   - When MC attempts to play SACD ISO DSD data to a DLNA renderer, it happily goes through the motions.  Wrong motions obviously as I documented from log files, but nevertheless.

Please don’t say "DLNA standard does not support DSD". It does. It works. That is what "Path A" does.

Please don’t say "DLNA standard does not support SACD ISO". It has nothing to do with subject at hand.

Please don’t say "MC cannot read data from SACD ISO". It does. It works.

Lets break this down:

From playback path A: (MC >  DSD data > DLNA > DLNA DSD DAC)
From playback paths 1-3:  (SACD ISO > MC)

Combine the two:

(SACD ISO > MC  > DSD data …. ) + ( …. MC >  DSD data > DLNA > DLNA DSD DAC)

And here it is :

(SACD ISO > MC  >  DSD data > DLNA > DLNA DSD DAC)

Hopefully this will end the "it's not possible" discussion, and maybe we can get back to "why it's not working as it should" discussion…

As evident from the log files, MC tries to present DSD data from SACD in a different way than the same data from DSD files ( .dsf/.dsf )

Instead of presenting "FileType">dff<, it presents "FileType">sacd< to a DLNA renderer. Clearly, this is wrong.

Mime types are not visible from log file, so I don’t know what that looks like, but it is most likely wrong, as a consequence of above, and this entry in a FileAssociations.xml collaborates this:

<Item Name="sacd">audio/x-sacd</Item>

No DLNA render is able to play an ISO file system as an audio data stream, and it never will be. Just a presence of this entry there, is a demonstration that someone thinks that this is at least possible. (it might be possible for a DLNA >SERVER< and >CLIENT/CONTROLLER<, but never for a DLNA >RENDERER<)

Now, weather the MC in this scenario really tries to stream a SACD ISO image, I don’t know, but of course, it should not. It should stream a dff/dsf >FROM< a SACD ISO image, just as it does when it reads .dff/.dsf files.

Hopefully, MC does not tries to stream a SACD ISO image, and indeed tries to stream the dff/dsf from a SACD image, but it just presents the wrong "label" for it, and naturally, renderer rejects it.

Clearly, we need input from an MC developer to progress this.

Thanks,
Andrej

[Awesome Donkey]

Clearly, we need input from an MC developer to progress this.

Bob is a MC developer and he's replied twice now. He also understands DLNA and knows how it works.

It should stream a dff/dsf >FROM< a SACD ISO image, just as it does when it reads .dff/.dsf files.

Again, there are NO DFF or DSF files contained within a SACD ISO. Nothing in my research suggests that the DSD data on a SACD is DFF or DSF. Everything I've read says it's uncompressed DSD and/or DST data so this will NOT work.

Please don’t say "DLNA standard does not support DSD". It does. It works. That is what "Path A" does.

Actually, Jim's right, the DLNA standard does not support DSD. I'm talking about native DSD support over DLNA without using DoPE here, which the DLNA standard does NOT support. If you're going to claim otherwise, show me the proof in the actual DLNA standard documentation that it supports native DSD playback. It only works because of DoPE (read about DoP to see how it works here and here - information about DoP also applies to DoPE) with the DLNA devices that support it.

B. MC can pass native DSD data from an SCAD ISO (or .dsf/.dst) to a USB DSD DAC, which can be played

Correct, which it's worth pointing out that this has nothing to do with DLNA or DoPE specifically.

C. MC can convert DSD data to PCM, or pack DSD data into DoPE, which can be played

Correct on the first part. The second part depends on if the renderer supports DoPE and playback of DSD tracks (DFF/DSF) via DoPE.

A. MC can read SACD ISO, and extract native DSD data (and meta-data) from it

Well... yes, MC can read a SACD ISO. It can also rip the tracks from a SACD ISO (keep in mind there's a PCM conversion step in the middle if you're using MC to rip tracks from a SACD ISO, e.g. DSD > PCM >DSD instead of DSD > DSD).

But... when MC plays back a SACD ISO without ripping the tracks, MC doesn't "extract" the data from a SACD ISO like your "Path A" example would suggest to you here, it simply reads the data because JRiver Media Center/foobar2000/etc. itself can read the data contained in a SACD ISO and play the tracks from it. Do not confuse this for MC having some ability to push a SACD ISO over DLNA/DoPE to your Sony renderer because it's up to the renderer to unpack the tracks from the SACD ISO pushed to it, not MC. The way you're talking about seems like MC takes a SACD ISO, extracts the data to a temporary file, and plays that which it doesn't. Remember, a SACD ISO has a TOC and the track information is stored within (you can verify this with a hex editor) which JRiver Media Center/foobar2000/etc uses this information for the individual tracks to play them. Which brings us to...

Please don’t say "DLNA standard does not support SACD ISO". It has nothing to do with subject at hand.

Actually, this is likely the source of your issue here and it has everything to do with the subject at hand. Why? Because you change the FileType all you want, it all simply comes down to that the DLNA standard does not support DSD or SACD ISOs and the Sony STR-DN1080 renderer does not support the playback of SACD ISOs pushed over DLNA via DoPE. I've read the manual for this renderer and nowhere in it does it say it supports the playback of ISOs much less the playback of SACD ISOs. Let's quote Bob, who is a MC developer and an expert on DLNA...

MC plays those files locally since it has the ability to play a track from the iso however DLNA is file based and the file in question IS the .iso so it would be the renderer that would need to unpack the tracks from the .iso and I don't know of any that do.

Pay attention to this part since this is likely the answer to your issue. Let's break this down: MC can play tracks from a SACD ISO locally since it's supported, so that's not the issue here. In fact, you can mostly ignore MC in general for this part, since the issue you encounter is related to DLNA/DoPE and your renderer. The next part points out that DLNA is file based which means the renderer (the Sony STR-DN1080 in this case) would need to a) support the playback of ISOs in general and b) take the pushed SACD ISO data (which IS the file in question here) sent via DLNA/DoPE and unpack the tracks from the SACD ISO itself, which it doesn't support because a) like I mentioned before there's nothing in the manual or user guide mentioning playback support for ISOs or SACD ISOs, b) I highly doubt Sony supports ISO playback much less SACD ISO playback due to their involvement in SACD and the movie industry like Scobie said and finally c) it does work with DFF or DSF files - which are individual files and ideal for a file based setup like DLNA/DoPE. You're probably going to argue that MC could mount a SACD ISO internally and push the individual tracks' data via DLNA/DoPE to your renderer. This won't work because again MC doesn't extract data from a SACD ISO, which would be needed to push each individual DSD track to the renderer (remember, DLNA is file based and if you're having to do this, you're better off extracting/creating DFF or DSF files). In addition, like mentioned, a SACD ISO doesn't contain DFF or DSF files but uncompressed DSD/DST data, which would be vital for this to work. Instead, MC will try pushing the entire SACD ISO via DLNA/DoPE which of course the renderer doesn't support, thus this issue.

So there you have it. The conclusions are simple: 1) The DLNA standard doesn't support DSD or SACD ISOs. DSD playback with DFF/DSF files only works with DLNA because of DoPE for the DLNA devices that support it. 2) SACDs and SACD ISOs don't contain DFF/DSF files, it's uncompressed DSD/DST data. 3) The Sony STR-DN1080 renderer does not support the playback of SACD ISOs via DLNA/DoPE and I don't think there's anything you can do in MC to try to force the Sony renderer to support SACD ISOs over DLNA/DoPE. 3) There's already a solution for this issue: extract/create DFF or DSF files from your SACD ISOs and use those with DoPE with your Sony STR-DN1080 renderer.

Honestly at this point this topic really isn't going anywhere since this has been explained several times already why it's not going to work.

P.S. Perhaps you should try contacting Sony and ask them if if they support SACD ISOs over DLNA via DoPE. I suspect they won't like that prospect at all.

[JimH]

afalout,
I'll give you a chance to reply and then I'll close this thread.

[RoderickGI]

If you will allow me Jim, I thought Bob's answers were very concise, very accurate, and very clear when I read this thread yesterday. Well done Bob!

I refrained from responding even though I saw the flaws in the logic of the argument presented as I knew Awesome Donkey would do an awesome job of replying, and he did. Well done AD!

Carry on. 

[Scobie]

I thought Bob's answers were very concise, very accurate, and very clear

I knew Awesome Donkey would do an awesome job of replying, and he did.

+1

[afalout]

Congratulations!

You have managed to convince yourself that what I am not asking for, is not possible.

Well done!

Andrej.

Quote from: bob on November 06, 2018, 04:39:48 pm
"P.S. Perhaps you should try contacting Sony and ask them if if they support SACD ISOs over DLNA via DoPE. I suspect they won't like that prospect at all. "

>> I can imagine that conversation; it would go like this: <blank stare>…. "ehm, why would you want to stream a file system to a DLNA renderer?" …. <scratching his head>

PS. Wrote a long reply, but by the end realized that there is no point in posting something where one side talks about oranges, and another about apples.

[RoderickGI]

You have managed to convince yourself that what I am not asking for, is not possible.

Not at all. Of course it is possible. (What you are asking for, not what you are not asking for.)


Andrew even touched on the solution indirectly in his explanation;

The way you're talking about seems like MC takes a SACD ISO, extracts the data to a temporary file, and plays that which it doesn't.

MC could extract DFF/DSF files from the SACD ISO, save them to a temporary location, and then play them for you... that is, extract the files every time you try to play them, unless they are cached. You may not want to wait while MC does the extraction before starting playback though. That functionality doesn't exist now, and probably won't ever, but it is possible.

But just remember;

It [MC] can also rip the tracks from a SACD ISO (keep in mind there's a PCM conversion step in the middle if you're using MC to rip tracks from a SACD ISO, e.g. DSD > PCM >DSD instead of DSD > DSD).

You also may not want your music to go through the PCM step, in which case, why don't you just extract them once to DFF or DSF files yourself, using one of the above mentioned tools that avoids the PCM step, import those files into MC, and then play them instead of the ISO?

Have a great day!