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[Awesome Donkey]

Here's the tl;dr version: Panel is seperate from JRemote and can be used from any device with a web browser. It is NOT meant to replace JRemote and really shouldn't be compared with JRemote. It is its own thing.

Hopefully that helps.

[oie]

Hi,
Ive tried on several occasions and it did not work for me.
I’ve had problems logging in, I’ve had problems watching films (at full screen) and I did not like the interface.
Only reason I’ve tried is because I cannot control the streaming section from jremote.
Thanks,
Oscar

[Ferdi]

I think we all understand that it's meant to be an own thing, and I trust Jim's re-assurance that it is not going to replace JRemote. And I totally get why a software company would prefer to focus on a device and OS agonistic solution.

However, I really don't see Panel's value add for end users. Even the argument that Panel is easier to use than JRemote is, in my view, questionable: My 80y old mum uses JRemote, she loves it and totally gets it. I had to help her setting it up (and that's where Panel is easier, even if I easily managed to do that over the phone and with a big ocean between us), but she's a huge fan of the app ever since. JRemote is very straight forward.
Comparing both solutions or not: if this thread is about if folks are using Panel, and most folks argue that they stick with JRemote, it is hard to explain why or have this discussion without the elephant in the room.

[amsco15]

Tried it several times.  Don't see the need when I have JRemote.  Not even close.

[Fingerling]

Ugly design, terribly slow, no possibility to ditch unwanted features, no customization, web app so prone to all sort of bugs, cookies dependent etc. etc.

But yes, usable.

I think that you would have less negative feedback on Panel if JRiver had a great remote solution (like... an updated version of JRemote).

[AndrewFG]

Panel is meant for people who don't want to learn.

It's also completely portable and adjusts automatically to screen size. 

These facts may mean nothing to you, but I think there is a clear need. Panel was the only interface that my wife ever found easy enough to use consistently.

A casual user is important and their needs are different.

Jim, reading your opinions above versus the opinions of all the other posters in this thread, I see a huge discrepancy.

IMHO it is not much point asking for feedback from users if you intend anyway to follow your own preconceptions. Or??

[BryanC]

I wanted to add that Panel has helped me out of a bind several times. This has usually been the case when the device I'm using has no way to install MC or Gizmo (usually when I'm traveling internationally). In the past, that's generally been chromebooks, smart TVs (with built-in browsers), and other device that I do not have admin access on like at internet cafes, work computers, or friend's computers. So it's a tool of last resort, which is very nice to have indeed.

[JimH]

Jim, reading your opinions above versus the opinions of all the other posters in this thread, I see a huge discrepancy.

IMHO it is not much point asking for feedback from users if you intend anyway to follow your own preconceptions. Or??

I may not share all their opinions, but I am listening, and I've said a couple of times that I'm grateful for their feedback.  There are some obvious ways we can improve Panel.

I'm aiming for something with Panel that may not be interesting to dedicated users of MC.  The feedback here is generally from males who are very skilled users.  I'd like to be able to also offer a solution for the rest of the world.

[Castius]

I was very excited when panel was announced and I still am. I still test it. But We do not use it for anything yet.

Panel speed looks like it's improving.
You have made some very good choices in the UI to make it easy to use.

Please add keyboard shortcuts/Navigation.
I'd like to see something. That helps a user navigate without hitting back. Like a left side or top navigation.
This would go along with telling where the user is. There is nothing on the page that tells me what i'm looking at.

The numbers On to the thumbnails looks more like an error. I'm not really sure about this UI element. But I'd prefer it was not over the image.
I'd like progress bar. Interestly i probably wouldn't mind this over the image.
I'd prefer the A <-->Z slider was just a auto load new pages. It makes it "feel" to much like an old html webpage.
And keyboard navigation would be more difficult.

list views needs thumbnails. Not sure if this was done because most list views are music albums.
But even so the album thumbnail should be visible somewhere. To visually remind me what i'm looking at.

I do not like the pastels colors or the icons. Some theme choices here will be nice.

lastly the and the hardest. I would like to see how TV integration will work.

Keep up the great work.

Thanks
Scott

[BryanC]

I'm aiming for something with Panel that may not be interesting to dedicated users of MC.

In that case I'll relay my wife's experience of using Panel:

1. Finds it difficult to access (has to remember an obscure ip address and port number based on whether she is at home or work to connect, unless she remembers to make several mobile bookmarks, which she never does).
2. Doesn't understand what the icons mean (need labels)
3. Will never touch the settings page to play with audio conversion settings, cue next week: "honey, why is my phone bill so high?" (basing conversion quality on wi-fi vs mobile network access would be a nice start)
4. "Where are my playlists again?"
5. "Why is it so slow?"
6. "When are you going to figure out how to make more Radio buttons?"

She didn't mind the colors though, so maybe my initial negative impression of the design was off.

I think some of those things are better handled by an app but not necessarily deal-breakers. She can still access our media library if she really wants to (but not as often as she might if she were using a dedicated app). That said, she's very familiar with Theater View because she has been using that on our HTPC for years. That level of familiarity available on a mobile device would be very successful with non-power users that already have an MC-aficionado in-house, although I'm not certain that it would be so beneficial for brand new users.

For additional reference, she's also familiar with listening to music and podcasts in apps such as Rocket Player and Pocket Casts, as do most of her friends.

Back to our combined perspectives, I think it would be best to have a native Android app that looked like either traditional android players (for brand-new users) or Theater View (for users familiar with HTPC's running MC). It would also benefit the pocketbooks of users if the solution could easily toggle between a remote and local library, in addition to scaling conversion settings on-the-fly (based on a cellular or wi-fi connection). I see Gizmo as being much closer to those solutions than Panel, currently.

Anecdotally, it appears that currently, I prefer the web-based option more than my wife. Which indicates that maybe it should become a remote graphical portal for power users with something nerdy like clickable MCWS actions

Edit: And one more thing she just found difficult, easily switching between Panel and other apps or browser tabs on her smartphone, especially after entering full-screen view.

[Ferdi]

I'm aiming for something with Panel that may not be interesting to dedicated users of MC.

For that, it may be worth looking what these people use theses days to plau: Pandora, Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube. If my wife is your target group for Panel, than that's exactly what you are competing with.
And you are competing on the level of expected experience (scrolling behavior, speed and color palette, to re-iterate some points made earlier), and while no one on this thread has referenced those 3rd party apps as competition, the fantastic JRemote has been, in most threads (proof how great that app is). People are very picky and, as you say, very subjective. For example, I won't touch Apple Music, but love Spotify.

[BillT]

I tried Panel in the early days as a replacement for Web Gizmo, which I had embedded in an HSTouch screen, but found it unusable.

After reading this thread I thought I'd try it again.

Quite happy with the design of the pastel tiles, once the meaningless hieroglyphs have been replaced by text. Could do with an option to remove the bottom 2 tiles (I believe for Radio JRiver and Car radio) they're just clutter for me, as I use neither.

Browsing music works fine for my use, but when it comes to playing something the options don't seem clear to me. I tend to play albums rather than tracks, so when I select an album I expect to have the option to play that album but the album opens to give a list of files; when you select a file you get a list of options, including play all files. That seems long winded to me. Maybe a long press on the album could give the option to play the album.

Next issue is video replay, using Panel as a remote for a JRiver instance. When you start playing a video file on a remote machine it doesn't start playing in full screen and there doesn't seem to be an option to make it full screen from Panel (but maybe I just haven't found it yet).

I use Eos as a remote for video control. It has a simple 5 button control array which is ideal for playback control, left and right buttons skip and up and down buttons scroll through video options, with the centre button as pause. If you could give Panel a Theatre view remote screen with that functionality I could abandon Eos.

[AndyU]

I may not share all their opinions, but I am listening, and I've said a couple of times that I'm grateful for their feedback.  There are some obvious ways we can improve Panel.

I'm aiming for something with Panel that may not be interesting to dedicated users of MC.  The feedback here is generally from males who are very skilled users.  I'd like to be able to also offer a solution for the rest of the world.

JRemote is excellent and my wife is more than capable of using it.

[BryanC]

After mulling over the pros/cons of the current Panel, why not develop a Panel app (using an in-app browser like JRiver for Android)? Enter the access key at startup (and save past access keys), after which it opens up Panel in an in-app browser. If it detects a local or remote IP maybe it can even automatically set conversion options on-the-fly. The appification allows you to pull info from Android/iOS and makes it easier for novices to setup and access, Panel allows a simplified and unified interface. Maybe offer it for free or as a standalone .apk to avoid Play Store nonsense.

[rossp]

The main issue for me is that you can't get video to play full screen on iOS.

Ross

[JimH]

The main issue for me is that you can't get video to play full screen on iOS.

Ross

Did you try a different browser?

[syndromeofadown]

I use an IdPi for my music server. I have tens of thousands of audio files for thousands of artists. Gizmo, JRemote, and MO 4Media have no issues displaying my entire list of artists with art. They are quick and stable.

When I try Panel it is not quick and I only see the first 25/50/200 artists. This makes it impossible to browse a large library.

So basically it just isn't an option for me in its current state.

I do like Panel and only have thing that annoys me with it. While using it, pieces of the interface get selected as if I would like to copy and paste them and they don't like to get un-selected.

I look forward to using Panel more as the new JRiver for Android develops.

[magnust]

I go back to it regularly, testing it after MC updates to see if there are some new things.

But so far, no, I don't ever use it to play anything and it currently looks like I never will.


- It's way to slow in some places


- It's oversimplified and uses an outdated paradigm (I expect protests on the latter but IMO it is)

[mattkhan]

- It's oversimplified and uses an outdated paradigm (I expect protests on the latter but IMO it is)

You might get some protests if we knew why you think it is outdated 

[AndrewFG]

Apropos the paradigm: I would say an outdated paradigm is “browsing” and the new paradigm should be “searching” (or perhaps “search then browse the list of search hits”). At the moment Panel is more or less useless at search..

[mattkhan]

I think of my library as more like a good bookshop, it can be nice to browse the aisles (but like you say, nicer still if you can dynamically generate those aisles via search)

[RoderickGI]

Apropos the paradigm:

For me: Search, Browse, refine search to narrower context, browse, maybe refine further.

The best experience these days for this are those online retail sites that allow you to filter at multiple levels, and not lose the original context or earlier filters, unless you choose to.

I want to play some music.
   I want some Jazz.
        I think piano would be good.
        Browse the list, spot Bobby Zee.
            Add Bobby Zee to filter.
            Play a Bobby Zee track/album.

[JimH]

Do you have a store in mind?  I think filters might be lost on most users.

[RoderickGI]

Do you have a store in mind?  I think filters might be lost on most users.

A site I have been using recently: https://www.wildearth.com.au/shop/climb/climbing-gear/shoes/3286
A technology site: https://www.scorptec.com.au/product/hard-drives-&-ssds/hdd-3.5-drives
Of course, eBay, although it isn't quite as good as some other sites: https://www.ebay.com.au/b/Resistance-Trainers/79759?Brand=SPRI&Colour=Purple&rt=nc
Choice consumer advice site. A different application, and slightly different filtering: https://www.choice.com.au/home-and-living/kitchen/dishwashers/review-and-compare/dishwashers
4WD tire (tyre for us here!) selection: https://www.tyresforless.com.au/fourwd-suv/?rf=va&va=7949%7C6807%7C6697

Some of those links may not show you exactly what I am seeing, because the link doesn't always save the selections I made. But you should get the idea. Of course, the concept needs refinement for the application: Media.

[mwillems]

I think of my library as more like a good bookshop, it can be nice to browse the aisles (but like you say, nicer still if you can dynamically generate those aisles via search)

I agree.  Searching is nice if you know what you're looking for, but one of the joys of having a personal music collection (IMO) is browsing it for something you didn't know you wanted until you saw it.  That said, I agree that panel's search function could be much better if it were more orderly.

[JimH]

Play Doctor might work for that.  It's available in Panel.

[zxsix]

I'd like to see some theming.  Not crazy about the color choices.
My taste is along the lines of the Modern Cards: Dar Edition skin for the main app.

[BradATIMA]

I'd like to see some theming.  Not crazy about the color choices.
My taste is along the lines of the Modern Cards: Dar Edition skin for the main app.

There is a dark theme option available on the settings page.

[zxsix]

There is a dark theme option available on the settings page.

There is a dark theme option available on the settings page.

Thanks.  Switched to that and it's better.
Perhaps some icons on the big panel buttons instead of just text?  Little polish things that make a big difference.

[Hilton]

Hi JimH

I played with Panel on an Android Tablet and the interface while functional isnt what I need to justify using it on a tablet, phone, NVidia Shield or PC when I have so many other choices.

If MC for Android can run as a server and use JRemote or other DLNA front end renderers as a front end to MC for Android, then maybe I could see a use for panel for some backend configuration of MC for Android that isnt present in JRemote, but as a user interface for media playback it's quite bland, simple and a little clunky compared to other front-end applications, including JRemote.

Personally I'd rather see you build further on JRemote front end and use Panel as a backend config manager for MC for Android and just use it for some library navigation, editing settings and basic playback.
As it is today, it has a long way to go before I'd consider swapping out any of my other front end players, but as an interface to manage a server on a device I think it would be fine.  It's just too far behind in the user experience and functionality to give any other player a run for it's money.   Not to completely discourage you - it may one day match other applications on mobile devices but to me it feels like a toy and I have no real interest in it.

[DrKNo]

I am happy that Panel exists, primarily because I am INCREDIBLY happy that MCWS exists. I use panel at work to allow colleagues to stream from my collection. I can make all functions available that I need, so so far so good. It is very, very ugly though... and that's usually the first comment I get also. So yes, I use it, and I will continue to use it, and I believe that it will be a valuable low-entry-hurdle access point for my kids and other non-techy people as an alternative to the honestly relatively complex JRiver Media Center.

What I would like to see in no particular order:
- faster loading of album art. I don't know why, but it takes so long for me for stuff to appear and I use it via WiFi on a beast of a machine...
- reasonable search capabilities
- Skins, or at least a reasonably presentable skin
- maybe the options to allow read-only users some minimal, non-invasive interaction like creating playlists, or even better: User accounts with these lists. I could see why that won't happen though...

[ElijahBaley]

I’ve been using MC since v17 and have mostly used the Gizmo app on my phone/tablet as a controller. I have trialled many generic DLNA controller apps and, more often than not, have uninstalled them within minutes… need I say more?

I have customised the views a little, but for the most part I do just browse my library, usually by Artist, until deciding what I would like to play – does this approach make me an old-fashioned or overly simplistic user, or someone’s wife 😉

Anyway, Gizmo suits my use very nicely, thank you. So, turning to Panel, it does follow a similar approach and mostly uses the same navigation etc. as Gizmo so ought to suit me, but for various reasons I am not using it:

Firstly, I do have authorisation turned on and on those occasions when it prompts me for username/password a Panel page opens and is immediately overlaid with a browser pop-up asking for the same (using Chrome on Android). I found I can just cancel the pop-up and enter the details once. But I never know when it will ask for details and when it will just open the home page – Gizmo has remembered the details for years.

A bigger issue is navigating through my library – say I go into Audio, then Artists, scroll down and select an Artist. I look at the list of Albums and change my mind so go back to the Artists – Panel re-displays at the top of the list again whereas Gizmo returns to the same position I left it.

Changing zones – it doesn’t feel intuitive having the Zones hidden in settings. Gizmo always shows the current zone at the top of the screen, even when scrolling, with a friendly ‘(tap to change)’ message alongside. This is very useful as I have 7 zones in different rooms and often forget to change it first. Panel might benefit from something similar.

Speed – Panel does seem to take a while to show cover-art and/or re-populate when going back a page. On Gizmo, it is only while scrolling that I see the white icons – almost immediately I stop scrolling the artwork is visible, I never feel like I am waiting for it.

Cosmetics – I am not a fan of the pastel colours or the icons. I have changed to the dark theme, but for some reason it just feels rather amateurish – like a first-time programmer thinking ‘what colour shall I make this block?’. Gizmo is even simpler with white icons/text on black blocks on a lighter-black (grey?) background and yet that looks fine to me.

Finally, I have added a shortcut to my tablet’s home screen for Panel, which very nicely uses the JRiver logo, but many people may not realise you can do that easily from the browser so perhaps a message/help to set it up in settings?

I hope these observations are helpful – and thanks again for my favourite media software.

[jb82]

Love panel, but I would like to see track numbers for albums (and probably a bit more configurability in general - maybe not as extensive as theatre view, although that would be awesome).

And it would also be a massive plus if live TV worked - especially since the only way to watch tv on android devices in the past was to use a bit of a workaround with the EOS app, which has now been pulled from Android :-(

Also, does full screen mode work on Apple devices yet? Could never get this to work on my wife's iPad, which rendered it useless for videos (literally).

[Ferdi]

I have put a lot of effort into customizing my navigation structure for JRemote.
Thanks to this thread I have now discovered a use case for Panel for me: when I am at my laptop and play music, I have no access to that navigation structure unless I use panel (or my phone): so here I go, using it a lot more since my earlier reply to this thread

[biblio]

One of the main things that confuses me is:
Here / Player / DLNA devices.

on firefox this means: the browser / server audio?
on android this means: ? / ? (player works better for me on android)

The icons with no text look good but i really don't process what they are in my head quickly. over time i'll get used to it but i bought MC and the android player in december and it's just not immediately clear for me. maybe icon/colour sync between the main media centre and panel.

Option in panel for android to ignore folders in the disk section or in a settings option.

ability to open a remote panel from android would be a killer feature.

[JimH]

One of the main things that confuses me is:
Here / Player / DLNA devices.

If you're talking about Panel, not JRiver for Android, then "Here" is the browser, and it uses the browser's HTML5 capabilities for playback.

If you're talking about JRiver for Android, then "Player" is JRiver's engine, and "Here" should not be used, will probably be removed in a future build.

I agree that it's a little confusing, but we'll improve it.

[biblio]

If you're talking about Panel, not JRiver for Android, then "Here" is the browser, and it uses the browser's HTML5 capabilities for playback.

If you're talking about JRiver for Android, then "Player" is JRiver's engine, and "Here" should not be used, will probably be removed in a future build.

I agree that it's a little confusing, but we'll improve it.

New build in google play without "here" less than a day after i mentioned it. talk about responsiveness!

I've been using panel at home a lot more this week to try and see what i  like and don't like. I have volumio and a few other DLNA areas in my house and i think it would actually benefit from making the pi's into straight linux and controlling them through panel instead.

The control everywhere and play where you want feel of panel is actually quite comfortable to get into.

[stewart_pk]

I use eos.

I'm not interested in Panel and my wife is not interested in it either.

[biblio]

I use eos.

I'm not interested in Panel and my wife is not interested in it either.

What's eos? Never heard of it before.

[Neco]

I missed this thread I guess.

Some folks already know how I feel about panel..  Jim certainly does.   This post involves more than just Panel, because you cannot fairly talk about Panel without discussing the other applications and their role in this family of interfaces.

I think the biggest issue with panel is what has been stated before..    It appears to have confusing overlap with previous apps and the purpose doesn't really make sense.   Especially when emphasis is put on one of its selling points as being OS agnostic. If you are truly going to invest in something which you believe is capable of a Rapid development cycle, and has the technical capability to match previous applications - then that is what you should do.   Otherwise it's not going to be worth the effort for what little use most people will get out of it.   But you really need to beef up improvements in a major way,  so you create an actual demand as people start switching from your older apps.

Right now I think JRiver has a  problem with appearances on the mobile platform.  We have many different apps, with different capabilities.  To be completely honest, my opinion of the mobile part of JRiver is you guys seem to do something new every couple of years and then leave the impression the previous projects are abandoned.   It may not be the case they are abandoned but that's the -impression- that is left.   I certainly have concerns over the life-span of JRemote for Apple as I thought I had heard the person doing that dropped off the face of the earth or something.   


At this point, I believe Panel is not necessary.   If you can use panel then you can use JRemote.    If you can't figure out a mobile app without colorful pictograms then I think as an end-user you have other issues to sort out.   Right now Panel just comes across as inferior and not as capable as older apps like JRemote and Gizmo.   From a purely UI perspective I loathe panel because none of its interface elements have fluid animation.   On a mobile device this can be important for certain things which require scrolling actions, etc.  There can be such a thing as "too responsive".  But also aesthetics plays a large part in the user experience.


I've said this before and I'll say it again.   Take what you can from  Gizmo and JRemote,  and put it into a cross-compiling codebase.   Maybe that can also include panel, I don't know.  I don't keep up much with software development tools these days.

JRemote has a great mobile interface.    It doesn't get much simpler than that.   A little quirky with how many steps are needed to do certain things, but overall not bad.  I don't see the point of Panel at this stage.  It just feels redundant and if its really just about an easier user interface you need to put more emphasis on selling that point.   


That being said, I've also acquiesced that I would probably use Panel if  playback issues,  codec support, and  buffering options  were sorted out.   All I care about on mobile is audio streaming.

[stewart_pk]

What's eos? Never heard of it before.

An Android remote application that is no longer available in the Google Play Store.
It was an alternative to JRemote and Gizmo.
I still have it installed on my phone.

[biblio]

Multi-user or play-only access for panel would be good.

Multi user stats would be a bonus but the MC database is single user?