Topic: OpenHome support (Read 15625 times)

mark_h · « **on:** February 08, 2019, 08:26:30 am »

Let me start by saying I don't know what I'm talking about enough to argue for this, so this is just an observation:

Two hardware streamers I've bought in recent days both explicitly mention JRiver in their manuals saying that there is no guaranteed support since their devices support OpenHome in preference to, or instead of, DLNA...

I see there has been some discussion in the past about OpenHome support, but that the conclusion was that not enough manufacturers were using it. Is that changing?? Is this something MC should support in order to keep up?

As I said, just an observation...

JimH · « **Reply #1 on:** February 11, 2019, 12:43:26 am »

I believe this is a modification to UPnP that Linn did a few years ago. I don't know of a good reason to add it.

In looking for it, I found that Linn dropped their forum last fall. It was pretty active when I followed it (many years ago now). It's odd that they would let it go.

mark_h · « **Reply #2 on:** February 11, 2019, 01:16:02 am »

Struck me as significant that vendors were calling out JRiver by name for not supporting it...

My Sonore UltraRendu offers a "legacy" option to "help" JRiver, which works, so I can still use JRiver as my server. But the more expensive AURALiC G1 I just purchased does not; it only supports OpenHome (as I found out while reading the manual during setup!) and I am subsequently forced to use Roon as my front-end, which is not somewhere I want to be. I am actually considering returning the G1 for a refund and looking for a player that JRiver can work with.

But again... it seems vendors are moving away from vanilla DLNA... or maybe I'm just unlucky at picking the two that are?

If adding OpenHome isn't too much work it might be worth considering...

~OHM~ · « **Reply #3 on:** February 11, 2019, 06:36:19 am »

AURALiC G1

can I ask what the production year on this was.

JimH · « **Reply #4 on:** February 11, 2019, 06:44:31 am »

Quote from: mark_h on February 11, 2019, 01:16:02 am

... it seems vendors are moving away from vanilla DLNA... or maybe I'm just unlucky at picking the two that are?

I haven't seen that and I haven't heard of such problems from customers. It's possible it does support UPnP and they don't advertise that. Or maybe they got a deal on OpenHome support. UPnP and its cousin, DLNA, have broad support on modern devices.

RD James · « **Reply #5 on:** February 11, 2019, 06:55:10 am »

Quote from: JimH on February 11, 2019, 12:43:26 am

I believe this is a modification to UPnP that Linn did a few years ago. I don't know of a good reason to add it.

In looking for it, I found that Linn dropped their forum last fall. It was pretty active when I followed it (many years ago now). It's odd that they would let it go.

A lot of companies killed off their forums before GDPR took effect.

mark_h · « **Reply #6 on:** February 11, 2019, 07:25:26 am »

Quote from: ~OHM~ on February 11, 2019, 06:36:19 am

AURALiC G1

can I ask what the production year on this was.

Brand new - I guess late 2018 manufacture.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #7 on:** February 11, 2019, 10:00:39 am »

See here http://openhome.org/pages/develop/overview.html

“UPNP:AV. Presents the standard UPnP Media Renderer network services for use with basic control points.”

Apart from implying that MC is “basic”, I guess they confirm it will work with MC.

mark_h · « **Reply #8 on:** February 11, 2019, 10:21:47 am »

Where I am right now is that the AURALiC can see, and control MC, but MC cannot see the AURALiC and so MC/JRemote is not an option as a controller.

JimH · « **Reply #9 on:** February 11, 2019, 10:39:01 am »

You could run AndrewFG's program against it and see what happens.

AndyU · « **Reply #10 on:** February 11, 2019, 02:12:27 pm »

Here’s openhome’s explanation of what advantages they offer over UPnP

http://wiki.openhome.org/wiki/OhMedia

Linn were in the streaming game earlier than most; it may well be that the advantages that openhome gave them years ago are less nowadays, but they’re doing ok. They’ve even got their analogue turntables streaming over their openhome based networked audio systems.

Their forum is now hosted elsewhere. They explain why they moved it, and give a link to the new site, here

https://www.linn.co.uk/forums

AndrewFG · « **Reply #11 on:** February 11, 2019, 03:34:46 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 11, 2019, 10:39:01 am

You could run AndrewFG's program against it and see what happens.

Yes, please download the DMRA from my sig, run the test, and post the renderer report here.

mark_h · « **Reply #12 on:** February 12, 2019, 01:19:20 am »

The AURALiC doesn't appear in Whitebear's list of discovered Media Renderers...

JimH · « **Reply #13 on:** February 12, 2019, 01:21:01 am »

That may mean either that Auralic doesn't support UPnP, that UPnP isn't turned on somewhere, or that a firewall is blocking access.

mark_h · « **Reply #14 on:** February 12, 2019, 01:30:05 am »

The fact the Whitebear also cannot see the AURALiC suggests their manual is correct - because they only support OpenHome there is no option for JRiver control (DLNA)?

My PC has no firewall/virus scanner and is merrily serving the many other varied streaming clients in my house...

JimH · « **Reply #15 on:** February 12, 2019, 02:29:16 am »

UPnP and DLNA are very closely related. MC supports both. As I understand it, OpenHome adds extensions to UPnP.

AndrewFG is the expert here.

If you are running Win10, then there is a firewall running. Windows Defender.

mark_h · « **Reply #16 on:** February 12, 2019, 02:35:39 am »

Windows defender is disabled. I never use virus scanners: waste of resources.

Will await Andrew's input...

Scobie · « **Reply #17 on:** February 12, 2019, 03:04:21 am »

Quote

UPnP and DLNA are very closely related.

I thought DLNA was the standard written for the protocol UPnP, as in they perform different functions but are 2 sides of the same coin?

JimH · « **Reply #18 on:** February 12, 2019, 03:41:36 am »

You can't disable Windows Defender. Please read the topic on it.

You have two problems going and they could be related. Try removing your new device and any software or drivers for it.

JimH · « **Reply #19 on:** February 12, 2019, 03:43:18 am »

They are extremely close. You could read about it on Wikipedia.

JimH · « **Reply #20 on:** February 12, 2019, 03:49:14 am »

Does MC see any UPnP or DLNA devices? Is Media Network turned on?

mark_h · « **Reply #21 on:** February 12, 2019, 03:49:40 am »

Quote from: JimH on February 12, 2019, 03:41:36 am

You can't disable Windows Defender. Please read the topic on it.

You have two problems going and they could be related. Try removing your new device and any software or drivers for it.

Installed and ran DRMAnalyser on a Windows 7 PC with no firewall/virus scanner. [N]o AURALiC found...

This isn't a windows issue, it's an AURALiC vs JRiver issue...

mark_h · « **Reply #22 on:** February 12, 2019, 03:50:21 am »

Quote from: JimH on February 12, 2019, 03:49:14 am

Does MC see any UPnP or DLNA devices? Is Media Network turned on?

Me? Yes, it sees all the devices in my house apart from AURALiC's OpenHome renderer.

From their manual: "The ARIES G1 is compatible with other OpenHome-based control software (although not with UPnP-based software such as JRiver Media Center.)"

JimH · « **Reply #23 on:** February 12, 2019, 03:51:02 am »

Does anything else see the Auralic?

mark_h · « **Reply #24 on:** February 12, 2019, 03:55:33 am »

You are asking me to admit that I use other software apart from JRiver?!

But, yes, Roon, for instance, sees it from all PCs (mix of Win7/10) in the house...

mark_h · « **Reply #25 on:** February 12, 2019, 04:02:41 am »

Just installed Foobar and added their UPnP plugin and it sees the AURALiC...

JimH · « **Reply #26 on:** February 12, 2019, 04:19:50 am »

If it works with foobar and UPnP, then it will work with MC.

Double check settings. Turn on all parts of MC's DLNA support.

Make sure port 1900 is open for SSDP.

Toggle SetNextAVTransport.

Edit MC's DLNA server and try some of the settings under Advanced.

mark_h · « **Reply #27 on:** February 12, 2019, 04:21:08 am »

I will check. However, Foobar is listed on their page of working controllers. JRiver is explicitly stated as non-working... and Whitebear cannot see it also...

JimH · « **Reply #28 on:** February 12, 2019, 04:24:19 am »

They claim it's UPnP based.
http://openhome.org/pages/about/index.html

You've used it with foobar and UPnP.

MC supports UPnP.

But you're not able to get it to work with JRiver or with AndrewFG's program. Something is wrong with the settings somewhere. A firewall is a very likely cause, so please don't ignore that.

mark_h · « **Reply #29 on:** February 12, 2019, 04:30:14 am »

But the elephant in the room is AURALiC's own manual stating that JRiver is not supported, which is backed up by my experience...

I'm not a UPnP/DLNA guru, so I'm out of my depth here in terms of debugging... can only report what I experience.

Foobar's UPnP may well have OpenHome the extensions that MC lacks?

JimH · « **Reply #30 on:** February 12, 2019, 04:31:27 am »

Quote from: mark_h on February 12, 2019, 04:30:14 am

But the elephant in the room is AURALiC's own manual stating that JRiver is not supported, which is backed up by my experience...

It could be as simple as they couldn't make it work.

Did you explore the firewall question?

mark_h · « **Reply #31 on:** February 12, 2019, 04:33:54 am »

Quote from: JimH on February 12, 2019, 04:31:27 am

It could be as simple as they couldn't make it work.

Did you explore the firewall question?

Currently testing on my windows 7 PC - no firewall.

Windows itself can see the AURALiC under Network, suggesting SSDP is functioning correctly.

JimH · « **Reply #32 on:** February 12, 2019, 04:49:04 am »

Have you asked Auralic for help? They might be willing to test. We'd provide a license.

mark_h · « **Reply #33 on:** February 12, 2019, 04:53:39 am »

Found elsewhere on the net:

"Controlling OpenHome renderers

To control an OpenHome renderer you cannot use a regular UPnP AV Control Point. You need an OpenHome Control Point:

BubbleUPnP (Android)
BubbleDS Next (Android)
Linn Kazoo (Windows, Mac, iPad)
LUMIN (iPad)
foobar2000 + foo_upnp plugin (Windows)"

Note that foobar is listed, so it's upnp plugin must support OpenHome.

I'll stop here as it seems fruitless to spend more time fiddling... will await the network gurus comments.

AURALiC's reply to me this morning was a very terse:

"AURALIC G series of streaming devices do not compatible with legacy UPnP protocol, you can only control it via OpenHome based control software. You can not control your ARIES G1 via JRiver."

Feels like that avenue is a dead end.

JimH · « **Reply #34 on:** February 12, 2019, 05:18:52 am »

From the page I linked to above:
"We all benefit from a well designed set of services based on UPnP ..."

I'd say, based on their reply to you, that it is not UPnP compliant, and that their statement above is misleading.

JimH · « **Reply #35 on:** February 12, 2019, 05:21:09 am »

And just to close the loop, we won't be adding support for OpenHome.

JimH · « **Reply #36 on:** February 12, 2019, 05:27:03 am »

Quote from: mark_h on February 12, 2019, 04:33:54 am

Windows itself can see the AURALiC under Network, suggesting SSDP is functioning correctly.

A firewall could be set to block all applications but still allow some through, so it doesn't prove that SSDP is unblocked for MC.

bob · « **Reply #37 on:** February 12, 2019, 10:23:54 am »

A simple solution is to run the free BubbleUPnP server on the machine you are running MC on to provide a UPnP compliant shim for your DAC.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #38 on:** February 12, 2019, 01:22:08 pm »

Quote from: mark_h on February 12, 2019, 03:49:40 am

Installed and ran DRMAnalyser on a Windows 7 PC with no firewall/virus scanner. [N]o AURALiC found...

This isn't a windows issue, it's an AURALiC vs JRiver issue...

No. It is NOT an MC issue.

The DMRA is a universal analyzer. It is well tested and fully complies with the UPnP standard as well as the DLNA implementation guideline. If the DMRA does not discover the Auralic, then either a) you have a network routing or firewall issue, or b) the Auralic is defective as far as UPnp is concerned, or c) the OpenHome website is lying about its support for UPNP:AvTransport..

PS the DMRA has a check box on the top right whereby you can use the DMRA’s own network device discovery or alternatively use the one built into Windows. These two discovery modes might be handled (aka blocked) differently by different firewalls (e.g. Windows Defender).

PPS if you want to try yet another independent test then you could also check if the Intel UPNP Developer Tool ( https://www.meshcommander.com/upnptools ) can discover your device.

JimH · « **Reply #39 on:** February 12, 2019, 01:57:33 pm »

I was watching a John Wayne movie. Andrew, you're even better. Thanks!

AndrewFG · « **Reply #40 on:** February 12, 2019, 03:02:17 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 12, 2019, 01:57:33 pm

I was watching a John Wayne movie. Andrew, you're even better. Thanks!

Howdy.

mark_h · « **Reply #41 on:** February 13, 2019, 02:09:13 am »

Quote from: AndrewFG on February 12, 2019, 01:22:08 pm

No. It is NOT an MC issue.

I agree, that in the sense that while OpenHome is not supported by MC it will not function with an OpenHome only renderer.

Quote

PS the DMRA has a check box on the top right whereby you can use the DMRA’s own network device discovery or alternatively use the one built into Windows. These two discovery modes might be handled (aka blocked) differently by different firewalls (e.g. Windows Defender).

Tried both methods, neither reveal the AURALiC

Quote

PPS if you want to try yet another independent test then you could also check if the Intel UPNP Developer Tool ( https://www.meshcommander.com/upnptools ) can discover your device.

Device Spy, which is part of this suite of tools sees the AURALiC:

Base URL   http://192.168.0.166:56737/lightningRender-bc-34-00-a0-3f-16/Upnp
Device icon   None
Device URN   urn:schemas-upnp-org:device:MediaRenderer:1
Embedded devices   0
Expiration timeout   1800
Friendly name   AURALiC
Has presentation   False
Interface to host   192.168.0.3
Manufacturer   AURALIC
Manufacturer URL
Model description
Model name   ARIES_G1
Model number
Presentation URL
Product code
Proprietary type
Remote endpoint   192.168.0.166:56737
Serial number
Services   21
Standard type   MediaRenderer
Unique device name   lightningRender-bc-34-00-a0-3f-16
Version   1.0

JimH · « **Reply #42 on:** February 13, 2019, 02:19:08 am »

Quote

192.168.0.166:56737

You could try changing MC's port. It's using 56737. I don't think that's normally used for UPnP.

mark_h · « **Reply #43 on:** February 13, 2019, 02:35:46 am »

Quote from: JimH on February 13, 2019, 02:19:08 am

You could try changing MC's port. It's using 56737. I don't think that's normally used for UPnP.

Jim, I'm not clear what you mean here: how would I change MC's port; 192.168.0.166:56737 is the AURALiC...

JimH · « **Reply #44 on:** February 13, 2019, 03:28:15 am »

I'm probably wrong about that, but try using a browser to connect to:

192.168.0.166:56737

You might learn something.

mark_h · « **Reply #45 on:** February 13, 2019, 03:40:49 am »

HTTP ERROR 404

AndrewFG · « **Reply #46 on:** February 13, 2019, 04:00:53 am »

Quote from: mark_h on February 13, 2019, 02:09:13 am

I agree, that in the sense that while OpenHome is not supported by MC it will not function with an OpenHome only renderer.

You missed the point. OpenHome and by implication the Auralic are wrongly claiming to support UPNP:AVTransport (which is the part of UPNP that MC connects to). JRiver fulfills it’s side of the bargain. OpenHome does not.

Quote from: mark_h on February 13, 2019, 02:09:13 am

Tried both methods, neither reveal the AURALiC

Device Spy, which is part of this suite of tools sees the AURALiC:

That is actually quite interesting.

Device Spy does a wildcard search “*” for all possible types of UPNP devices (the UPNP specs cover all kinds of home automation equipment like printers, routers, security cameras, lights, thermostat etc.) On the other hand the DMRA and MC do a specific search for just one specific class of UPNP device “MediaRenderer”.

So the Device Spy result shows that the Auralic is advertising itself as SOME kind of UPNP device, but it is not advertising itself (properly) as a MediaRenderer.

Furthermore, the fact that the Auralic uses the word MediaRenderer in some of its description texts, make me suspect that it is TRYING to advertise itself as a media renderer but failing (probably due to wrong syntax). So the general wildcard search succeeds, but the specific search for a media renderer fails.

This is clearly a problem with the Auralic / OpenHome device. And NOT MC.

mark_h · « **Reply #47 on:** February 13, 2019, 04:23:15 am »

Quote from: AndrewFG on February 13, 2019, 04:00:53 am

That is actually quite interesting.

Device Spy does a wildcard search “*” for all possible types of UPNP devices (the UPNP specs cover all kinds of home automation equipment like printers, routers, security cameras, lights, thermostat etc.) On the other hand the DMRA and MC do a specific search for just one specific class of UPNP device “MediaRenderer”.

So the Device Spy result shows that the Auralic is advertising itself as SOME kind of UPNP device, but it is not advertising itself (properly) as a MediaRenderer.

Furthermore, the fact that the Auralic uses the word MediaRenderer in some of its description texts, make me suspect that it is TRYING to advertise itself as a media renderer but failing (probably due to wrong syntax). So the general wildcard search succeeds, but the specific search for a media renderer fails.

This is clearly a problem with the Auralic / OpenHome device. And NOT MC.

All of that is over my head, but it sounds like we are getting (got) to the root of the problem...

Is there anything specific you can give me to tackle AURALiC support with?

I just set up the Sonore Rendu as an OpenHome renderer and MC can see it, suggesting your analysis is correct (or Sonore's device is "broken"!). What is different about the information the Rendu is providing that isn't broken compared to the AURALiC?

Base URL   http://192.168.0.253:49152/
Device icon   Present, 48x48
Device URN   urn:schemas-upnp-org:device:MediaRenderer:1
Embedded devices   0
Expiration timeout   3600
Friendly name   Headphones
Has presentation   True
Interface to host   192.168.0.3
Manufacturer   JF Light Industries
Manufacturer URL   https://opensourceprojects.eu/u/medoc/profile/
Model description   UPnP front-end to MPD
Model name   UpMPD
Model number   1.0
Model URL   https://opensourceprojects.eu/p/upmpdcli/code/
Presentation URL   http://192.168.0.253:49152/upmpd/presentation.html
Product code
Proprietary type
Remote endpoint   192.168.0.253:49152
Serial number   42
Services   10
Standard type   MediaRenderer
Unique device name   dcbedde0-ce40-1a37-130d-d063b401eec1
Version   1.0

And finally, given that MC's implementation is correct, but "strict" - would it be desirable to make it MC's renderer scan more "fuzzy" to assist finding broken renderers?

JimH · « **Reply #48 on:** February 13, 2019, 05:17:13 am »

Mark,
Could you send a link to AndrewFG's last post to Auralic support?

Thanks,

Jim

JimH · « **Reply #49 on:** February 13, 2019, 05:21:55 am »

Well done, John Wayne. Thanks very much.

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Author Topic: OpenHome support (Read 15625 times)