Topic: Subtitles show in spite of Option / Video / Subtitles / Do not show subtitles (Read 4718 times)

IAM4UK · « **on:** April 14, 2019, 04:13:59 pm »

As per the subject, subtitles keep showing when I start playback of movies (except, curiously, 4K movies). There's no remote control button I am aware of to turn them off, so I have to break out the mouse/keyboard, right-click, scroll and turn them back off.
When I check the Options in MC25, I confirm that Subtitles are set to NOT show, but they show anyway. How can I get this setting to work?

Yaobing · « **Reply #1 on:** April 15, 2019, 09:19:47 am »

I will look into this.

Does it matter which type of video or which type of subtitling we are dealing with?

IAM4UK · « **Reply #2 on:** April 15, 2019, 02:25:35 pm »

Yes, actually... This problem does not happen with UltraHD content, but does happen with 1080p MKV

Hendrik · « **Reply #3 on:** April 15, 2019, 02:31:16 pm »

The only reason subtitles would show in that configuration with a MKV is if the subtitle stream is flagged as "Forced". So maybe check that.

~OHM~ · « **Reply #4 on:** April 15, 2019, 04:10:21 pm »

Quote from: IAM4UK on April 14, 2019, 04:13:59 pm

As per the subject, subtitles keep showing when I start playback of movies (except, curiously, 4K movies). There's no remote control button I am aware of to turn them off, so I have to break out the mouse/keyboard, right-click, scroll and turn them back off.
When I check the Options in MC25, I confirm that Subtitles are set to NOT show, but they show anyway. How can I get this setting to work?

Also are you sure the subs are not burned to the MKV

RoderickGI · « **Reply #5 on:** April 15, 2019, 07:50:51 pm »

Quote from: Hendrik on April 15, 2019, 02:31:16 pm

The only reason subtitles would show in that configuration with a MKV is if the subtitle stream is flagged as "Forced". So maybe check that.

I have noted lots of MKV files created recently don't have a language set in them, and it seems by default if there is no language in the file, MC will show the ~~Forced~~ Subtitles, because "English" doesn't match "blank". Even when MC has the languages set up correctly. At least, I think that is what I found when I investigated. I've commented previously somewhere... Here: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,118766.msg822027.html#msg822027

Check the MKV file. Set the language in it to English, if it isn't set and that is the audio language in the file. I think there is an overall language, and each audio stream should have a language. Not sure which is missing/required.

Maybe MC should assume the movie language was English, if no language was specified?

Also, what is wrong with using the OSD Menu (arrow up on remote or keyboard) to turn off Subtitles? It won't stop Forced Subtitles, but provides the same functions as the right-click menu.

IAM4UK · « **Reply #6 on:** April 18, 2019, 02:48:28 pm »

Great replies, thank you. These are not "forced" as far as I know, and definitely not "burned in," because I can turn them off. But I shouldn't have to turn them off. I set the option to not show them, and they show up anyway until I command them again to go away.

Regarding setting the language in the MKV file: How can that (metadata?) be edited in the MKV file?

tij · « **Reply #7 on:** April 18, 2019, 03:40:36 pm »

mkvtoolnix can change mkv tags

also ... if subtitle is set to forced and its PGS ... depending on language settings ... turning it off wont make it dissapear ... have to set to null to make it go away

Hendrik · « **Reply #8 on:** April 18, 2019, 04:07:02 pm »

Quote from: RoderickGI on April 15, 2019, 07:50:51 pm

I have noted lots of MKV files created recently don't have a language set in them, and it seems by default if there is no language in the file, MC will show the Forced Subtitles, because "English" doesn't match "blank". Even when MC has the languages set up correctly. At least, I think that is what I found when I investigated.

But "Forced" subtitles are supposed to be always shown in that configuration (or in any configuration, really, you are not supposed to be able to suppress them by default). Either those that match your wanted language, if available, or others.
Forced are mostly independent of the movies language, since they are meant for foreign languages in the movie itself, like Alien languages, or anything of that sort.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #9 on:** April 18, 2019, 05:12:21 pm »

Quite correct Hendrik. I mistyped by including "Forced". I fixed the original post.

As IAM4UK said, it doesn't sound like these are forced subtitles, just normal subtitles. But as there is no language defined in the audio track, MC can't match the audio language to MC settings, and therefore displays the subtitles.

At least that is what was going on in that previous thread I posted above:

Quote from: RoderickGI on January 06, 2019, 06:02:21 pm

I found four MKV files that have Subtitles in them. Most I see don't. Of the four, three played English Subtitles even though my PC language is English, my Default Subtitle language is English, and my Default Audio Language is English. For each of those three I had to turn off Subtitles when I had watched them, as shown by the contents of the [Playback Info] field, which included the setting "(9:Subtitles)(4:None)". All three of these problem files had the Subtitle track tagged as English, but did not have the Audio track tagged with any language. When MC doesn't know what language the Audio track is, it takes the conservative approach and shows the Subtitles. Basically, <Unknown Language> does not equal <Default Language>.

The one MKV file that had a Subtitle track in it, but didn't automatically show the Subtitles, had the Audio and Subtitle tracks tagged as English.

If MC assumed an audio track was English if the language was undefined, then this issue would go away. That is a big assumption though, and I don't know if it would be appropriate.

Hendrik · « **Reply #10 on:** April 18, 2019, 05:15:15 pm »

Quote from: RoderickGI on April 18, 2019, 05:12:21 pm

As IAM4UK said, it doesn't sound like these are forced subtitles, just normal subtitles. But as there is no language defined in the audio track, MC can't match the audio language to MC settings, and therefore displays the subtitles.

The code does not do that if you set it to "No Subtitles", it would only do that if you set it to one of the other options.

If anyone can share a file that misbehaves, please do so. I play a lot of video files, some tagged some not, and I never get any problems.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #11 on:** April 18, 2019, 05:44:55 pm »

Correct again.

MC does do that for me, as I have Subtitles set to "Show subtitle only if selected subtitle language is different from audio language".

I guess IAM4UK needs to confirm that setting is actually "Do not show subtitles". If so, the issue should not be happening. Also, my example files, if I could find one again, wouldn't help.

Hendrik · « **Reply #12 on:** April 19, 2019, 02:25:16 am »

Untagged audio is hard to know what to do with. We could consider it to be in whichever language you selected as preferred in the settings and hope thats better then the other options, or we can never actually select any subtitles when the audio is not tagged. Not sure whats better.

tij · « **Reply #13 on:** April 19, 2019, 07:25:17 am »

just curious ... if audio is untagged ... when video is playing and you try to change audio ... what MC labels untagged audio stream? ... what MC labels untagged subtitle streams?

I rip my disc with MakeMKV ... it seems to tag language correctly

i mostly use MKVToolnix to merge two mkvs from two discs into one (aka Ben Hurr, Lord of the Rings) or mux in Atmos tracks from 4k discs into 3D version of movie

IAM4UK · « **Reply #14 on:** April 19, 2019, 08:51:50 am »

Quote from: RoderickGI on April 18, 2019, 05:44:55 pm

I guess IAM4UK needs to confirm that setting is actually "Do not show subtitles". If so, the issue should not be happening. Also, my example files, if I could find one again, wouldn't help.

Confirmed. The options are clear, but if they mean something other than what they appear to clearly state, it would be good to have their wording refined. I would expect "Do not show subtitles" to not show any subtitles that are overlayed (understanding that burned-in subtitles are part of the actual image). This setting would require the user to deliberately turn on subtitles for a foreign-language movie, typically. But it surely would not result in requiring the user to turn off subtitles during playback of every 1080p MKV (note again that this doesn't happen for UHD files).

Hendrik · « **Reply #15 on:** April 19, 2019, 08:57:50 am »

Some notes:
- The specification of the "Forced" subtitle flag specifically says that users are not supposed to be able to turn those off by default, so we won't allow that either. Who would ever not want subtitles when someone is speaking Klingon? You could consider them part of the actual video, and not as a subtitle as such.
- There is no instrinsinc difference if a file is UHD or not. Its just a property of the video, not of anything else.

As asked above, unless we can see what makes up those files that show subtitles when they are not supposed to, we won't be able to do anything about it.

Yaobing · « **Reply #16 on:** April 19, 2019, 11:18:16 am »

I have been busy with other stuff so I have not looked into this in details. The reason I asked whether this depends on the type of videos is that I know some of the recently added TV CC stuff might not observed the "No subtitles" setting. In this case the CC turns itself on if the file's "Playback Info" tag has the CC on. If you turn it off manually, it would not be on again.

tij · « **Reply #17 on:** April 19, 2019, 02:46:34 pm »

Quote from: Hendrik on April 19, 2019, 08:57:50 am

Some notes:
- The specification of the "Forced" subtitle flag specifically says that users are not supposed to be able to turn those off by default, so we won't allow that either. Who would ever not want subtitles when someone is speaking Klingon? You could consider them part of the actual video, and not as a subtitle as such.
- There is no instrinsinc difference if a file is UHD or not. Its just a property of the video, not of anything else.

As asked above, unless we can see what makes up those files that show subtitles when they are not supposed to, we won't be able to do anything about it.

Completely agree with this … BUT at the moment this only works for PGS subtitles … for text subtitle (SRT) embedded in MKV and tagged "Forced", you can turn them off

Hendrik · « **Reply #18 on:** April 19, 2019, 03:52:19 pm »

Quote from: tij on April 19, 2019, 02:46:34 pm

Completely agree with this … BUT at the moment this only works for PGS subtitles … for text subtitle (SRT) embedded in MKV and tagged "Forced", you can turn them off

You can manually for every video, and thats fine. But not globally for every video. This also works for PGS.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #19 on:** April 19, 2019, 06:33:11 pm »

I guess we are back to Hendrik's request asking for a sample file that causes the problem. IAM4UK?

IAM4UK · « **Reply #20 on:** April 19, 2019, 06:54:10 pm »

Quote from: RoderickGI on April 19, 2019, 06:33:11 pm

I guess we are back to Hendrik's request asking for a sample file that causes the problem. IAM4UK?

You don't mean an actual MKV upload to here, right? They're 10s of gigabytes in size. This problem is happening with seemingly all 1080p MKV backups of my Blu-ray discs.

IAM4UK · « **Reply #21 on:** April 19, 2019, 06:58:54 pm »

It's as if MC25 is simply ignoring what I put in the Options. I experimented with different Subtitle settings there: for example, I changed the Size to 50% (keeping the setting at Do Not Show...) and re-played the movie "Hitchcock." The subtitles displayed again, and at 100%. I could right-click and re-size to 50%, and I could right-click and turn them Off. But the Options from the program itself were ignored.

I also tried to trick it by choosing the Option "Show subtitles in selected language if available," then selecting "Afrikaans" as the language. Re-play test movie, "Hitchcock." English subtitles displayed at 100%.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #22 on:** April 19, 2019, 07:03:37 pm »

That is the second report that MC is ignoring its settings. Maybe there is something in that? https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,120230.0.html

JimH · « **Reply #23 on:** April 19, 2019, 07:05:55 pm »

There a few OS issues going on lately.

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,86096.msg832546.html#msg832546

And that's just one of them.

JimH · « **Reply #24 on:** April 19, 2019, 07:08:35 pm »

Are you setting it on a client?

IAM4UK · « **Reply #25 on:** April 19, 2019, 07:17:13 pm »

Quote from: JimH on April 19, 2019, 07:08:35 pm

Are you setting it on a client?

MC25 is installed on a PC with Win10x64, where some of the movies are local to that machine, but most are on a Synology NAS. However, for the purpose of accessing those movies from the NAS, I've got them in shared folders, which are in a Mapped Drive on the Windows PC running MC25. So, the program is pointing to a drive letter (e.g, "M:\Movies"). So, I don't think that PC is merely a "client" in that configuration.

IAM4UK · « **Reply #26 on:** April 19, 2019, 07:20:55 pm »

Another data point: The subtitle "type" appears to be "SRT." I don't know what that means, but maybe it matters.

Of course, this didn't happen until very recently, and I've been using MC for many major versions over the past several years. Something has changed that is affecting video files which previously did not exhibit this behavior.

JimH · « **Reply #27 on:** April 19, 2019, 07:37:33 pm »

Just as a test, try moving a problem file to a local disk and playing it from there.

IAM4UK · « **Reply #28 on:** April 19, 2019, 07:43:16 pm »

Quote from: JimH on April 19, 2019, 07:37:33 pm

Just as a test, try moving a problem file to a local disk and playing it from there.

A sensible test, of course. Same behavior.

However, given that the subtitles are of the type "SRT," and given that I never use subtitles except for foreign language movies, I searched the movie folders for files with "SRT" in their names. Sure enough, that's an extension, so it was easy to find those subitle.srt files and delete them in Windows Explorer. Back to MC25; play movies that had this subtitle-showing-in-spite-of-being-told-not-to anomaly; problem solved.

That's a workaround rather than a solution, but it will save me some commands upon movie playback, and won't cost me anything I held dear.

Hendrik · « **Reply #29 on:** April 20, 2019, 01:38:58 am »

Blu-rays don't come with SRT subtitles, so wherever those come from, its not the Blu-ray disc.

If, for example, you used Media Center to lookup subtitles through its subtitle download mechanism, that would also automatically tell Media Center to use those subtitles during playback (ie. in [Playback Info]), overriding any global choices - because a valid assumption is that when you go and manually download subtitles for a movie, you likely also want to use them.

We can't do anything if we don't have more information. How where those files ripped, which tool? Where to the external SRT subtitles come from? etc.

tij · « **Reply #30 on:** April 20, 2019, 05:18:41 am »

Quote from: IAM4UK on April 19, 2019, 07:43:16 pm

However, given that the subtitles are of the type "SRT," and given that I never use subtitles except for foreign language movies, I searched the movie folders for files with "SRT" in their names. Sure enough, that's an extension, so it was easy to find those subitle.srt files and delete them in Windows Explorer.

So subtitles are separate files ... external ... I think in those cases MC will play them no matter the setting (I think MPC-HC does same)

One of the reason I mux subtitles into MKV and do not keep them as separate files

got some Thai anime dvds and Blu-ray’s with jap and Thai audio/sub ... while I can understand Thai ... sometimes want to watch in original language ... and I cannot read Thai ... so need English sub (Anime sub mostly come in SSA/ASS ... which unfortunately MC is not handling well ... but that’s another topic ... hopefully one developers are considering to improve

IAM4UK · « **Reply #31 on:** April 20, 2019, 09:19:47 am »

Quote from: Hendrik on April 20, 2019, 01:38:58 am

We can't do anything if we don't have more information. How where those files ripped, which tool? Where to the external SRT subtitles come from? etc.

After purchasing discs, I rip them to a Synology NAS with MakeMKV. I notice in that program that "PGS" subtitles are present; sometimes I include them in the rip. I don't know where the SRT subtitles are from, but I used to have an Emby Server on my PC, so it could have been from that program.

Anyway, since I deleted the SRT files, the issue is no longer a problem, so I think there's nothing more to do. Thank you for responding with valuable insights.

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Author Topic: Subtitles show in spite of Option / Video / Subtitles / Do not show subtitles (Read 4718 times)