Topic: Feature Request: Boosting Center Channel with JRSS Downmixing (Read 2597 times)

PGibby · « **on:** July 14, 2019, 06:49:05 pm »

Copied from this older thread in MC24: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,115307.msg797054.html#msg797054

I'd like to see if this would be an available feature. My setup consists of an older 2 channel DAC being fed by my HTPC through toslink. This DAC is an older Sonic Frontiers that only does PCM up to 16/48 2ch. Because of this, I use JRSS downmixing and output PCM to it, and for anything higher than 48khz sampling, I bump it down to a max of 48khz.

Now to my request, I'd like the option of being able to individually adjust channel volume (mainly CENTER). I'd like to be able to boost the center a few DB without doing anything else. I don't want to change the dynamics of anything else, just simply make the center channel a little louder all the time during movies.

I can use "night mode" in the DSP studio, and they help with the center channel, but it also seems to take out the dynamic range of everything else (and it feels like it compresses the bass a little).

Another option would be to have another "mode" that boosts center like Night Mode does, but does not compress dynamics.

Is this a feature that can be added?

Thanks!

Matt · « **Reply #1 on:** July 14, 2019, 06:57:59 pm »

You should be able to adjust volumes using Parametric Equalizer. Have you tried that? Thanks.

PGibby · « **Reply #2 on:** July 14, 2019, 07:09:20 pm »

Not possible. See this thread: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,112139.msg776068.html#msg776068

Looks like its been a feature request back to 2013 for so.

Matt · « **Reply #3 on:** July 14, 2019, 07:20:07 pm »

Oh, you want to boost it for a two channel setup. Sorry, but not currently possible.

PGibby · « **Reply #4 on:** July 14, 2019, 07:23:47 pm »

Yep, that's correct. I suppose there may be a way to have all JRiver DSP bypassed/off to have Equalizer APO do the channel mixing? It looks like channel volumes on configurable in E-APO.

Anyone try this?

PGibby · « **Reply #5 on:** July 14, 2019, 07:32:06 pm »

Or, "night mode" does work, and it boosts center by 3db...which is just about perfect, but some frequency tuning, dynamic compression, and bass removal is done.

Could there be a mode added that is similar to night mode, but ONLY boosts center by 3db and does nothing else?

muzicman0 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 14, 2019, 08:10:01 pm »

For those of us with hearing loss, boosting the center channel would be awesome. I find myself having to have the closed captions on for TV, which annoys the rest of the family. But if I turn it up enough to hear the dialog clearly, then the 'rest of the sounds' are too loud. loud explosions at midnight are not ideal!!

PGibby · « **Reply #7 on:** July 14, 2019, 08:19:26 pm »

Quote from: muzicman0 on July 14, 2019, 08:10:01 pm

For those of us with hearing loss, boosting the center channel would be awesome. I find myself having to have the closed captions on for TV, which annoys the rest of the family. But if I turn it up enough to hear the dialog clearly, then the 'rest of the sounds' are too loud. loud explosions at midnight are not ideal!!

Yea, I can see that being a big help.

If i'm watching a movie by myself, I've got no issue using regular downmixing...but when family/friends are over for movie night or whatever, the real dynamic loud parts tend to be a little loud for some of the audience.

Matt · « **Reply #8 on:** July 14, 2019, 08:35:13 pm »

We'll see if we can figure something out this week. Thanks.

wer · « **Reply #9 on:** July 15, 2019, 12:25:37 am »

Quote from: PGibby on July 14, 2019, 08:19:26 pm

but when family/friends are over for movie night or whatever, the real dynamic loud parts tend to be a little loud for some of the audience.

That's because night mode (dynamic range compression) in JRiver was designed to work by, perversely, BOOSTING volume.

See this thread, from four years ago.
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=101147.0

Matt, you wonderful guy, if you're in a mood to figure something out, perhaps you could give us a better DRC method?

Or even selectable options?

A center-weighted DRC, as proposed in the thread I referenced, would be helpful to those with hearing loss as well as to those around them.

Hendrik · « **Reply #10 on:** July 15, 2019, 04:20:45 am »

Quote from: PGibby on July 14, 2019, 07:32:06 pm

Or, "night mode" does work, and it boosts center by 3db...which is just about perfect, but some frequency tuning, dynamic compression, and bass removal is done.

The "night mode" behavior is intentional - by reducing the dynamic range, you get fewer spikes in volume, ie. no explosions that wake your neighbours. As a positive side-effect, it makes dialog more clear to listen to, since all other audio is a bit more subdued.

Matt · « **Reply #11 on:** July 15, 2019, 08:55:18 am »

Coming next build:
NEW: Added a center level selection to the Output Format DSP page to be used when in two channel mode.

Thanks for the prods for the last years. We got it done!

vairulez · « **Reply #12 on:** July 15, 2019, 10:10:51 am »

great news Matt.

marko · « **Reply #13 on:** July 15, 2019, 11:52:05 am »

Honestly, I cannot wait to give this a try. I've wrestled for so long now with this very problem. Today has been an MC high for me

Thanks Matt, Hendrik, et-al.

PGibby · « **Reply #14 on:** July 15, 2019, 02:26:52 pm »

Quote from: marko on July 15, 2019, 11:52:05 am

Honestly, I cannot wait to give this a try. I've wrestled for so long now with this very problem. Today has been an MC high for me

Thanks Matt, Hendrik, et-al.

Same here.

Matt...thank you!

lepa · « **Reply #15 on:** July 15, 2019, 02:50:26 pm »

I'm hearing it

muzicman0 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 15, 2019, 05:19:13 pm »

This is AWESOME news!!!

mwillems · « **Reply #17 on:** July 15, 2019, 07:33:18 pm »

Quote from: Matt on July 15, 2019, 08:55:18 am

Coming next build:
NEW: Added a center level selection to the Output Format DSP page to be used when in two channel mode.

Thanks for the prods for the last years. We got it done!

This is so awesome! Will it work in 2.1 or other configurations lacking a center output as well, or will it be limited to stereo?

Matt · « **Reply #18 on:** July 15, 2019, 07:35:06 pm »

Quote from: mwillems on July 15, 2019, 07:33:18 pm

This is so awesome! Will it work in 2.1 or other configurations lacking a center output as well, or will it be limited to stereo?

I think it disables for 2.1 right now, but we could probably enable it. Let me look tomorrow.

mwillems · « **Reply #19 on:** July 15, 2019, 07:37:37 pm »

Quote from: Matt on July 15, 2019, 07:35:06 pm

I think it disables for 2.1 right now, but we could probably enable it. Let me look tomorrow.

Thanks, I appreciate it. My output format is 2.1 and I've been wishing for a center boost!

As a general idea, it would nice if it could work for any mode that lacks a center output (i.e. 2.1, 4 channel, mono, etc.), but I'll personally be happy if it works with stereo and 2.1

Mans · « **Reply #20 on:** July 16, 2019, 08:27:25 am »

Quote

NEW: Added a center level selection to the Output Format DSP page to be used when in two channel mode.

Highly appreciated !!!

Matt · « **Reply #21 on:** July 16, 2019, 08:33:10 am »

Quote from: mwillems on July 15, 2019, 07:37:37 pm

Thanks, I appreciate it. My output format is 2.1 and I've been wishing for a center boost!

Next build:
Changed: Made the center channel adjustment also enable for 2.1 playback.

Thanks for the suggestion.

PGibby · « **Reply #22 on:** July 16, 2019, 08:59:20 am »

Quote from: Matt on July 16, 2019, 08:33:10 am

Next build:
Changed: Made the center channel adjustment also enable for 2.1 playback.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Awesome....when do you think the new build will be out?

vairulez · « **Reply #23 on:** July 16, 2019, 12:05:56 pm »

Matt, could this setting be available in the osd in theaterview ?

Hendrik · « **Reply #24 on:** July 16, 2019, 12:58:18 pm »

Quote from: vairulez on July 16, 2019, 12:05:56 pm

Matt, could this setting be available in the osd in theaterview ?

We don't really expose any audio DSP settings there, and it would not take effect until playback was stopped and started again. Is there any particular reason you would need to constantly adjust it mid-playback?

blgentry · « **Reply #25 on:** July 16, 2019, 03:34:44 pm »

The ability to "bump" the levels of center, sub, rears, and mains is a feature I have seen on several AVRs and SSPs. My old Anthem AVM-20 (which is now woefully outdated) has remote control functions for each of these. It's sometimes useful to give a little boost or cut to some of these depending upon how the movie is mixed.

I found that sub adjustments were the most often used in my system, but I can see some people wanting to bump the center channel up or down a few dB based on different movie mixes.

In my opinion this capability would add to the polish and useability of MC.

Brian.

mattkhan · « **Reply #26 on:** July 16, 2019, 03:47:00 pm »

Those are different things aren't they? i.e. per (output) channel trims vs downmix channel gains.

blgentry · « **Reply #27 on:** July 16, 2019, 03:52:41 pm »

In my (possibly naive) view they are the same. Channel trims output to channels. Those same "output to channels" paths should feed the input to the downmix engine. That would make them kind of the same thing if the signal path is what I've just said. Which it might not be; it just seemed logical to me that it would work that way.

Perhaps this is why channel adjustments via PEQ don't work when downmixing... because the downmix isn't the last (or nearly last) thing in the chain. I wonder why it's not near or at the very end?

Brian.

Hendrik · « **Reply #28 on:** July 16, 2019, 03:56:08 pm »

Mixing and resampling is the first part of the chain, so that any further DSP can work on the final product, and not need to worry about possibly extensive processing happening afterwards.

Imagine trying to setup processing for your stereo system, but you play content from 2 to 8 channel. Do i need to apply DSP to 8 channel now, or 6, or 2? Much easier to just DSP 2 channel, and always 2 channel, no matter whats playing.
Sure, this prevents applying per-channel DSP before the downmix, but in the grand scheme of things, I think thats far less common.

mattkhan · « **Reply #29 on:** July 16, 2019, 04:07:11 pm »

Quote from: blgentry on July 16, 2019, 03:52:41 pm

In my (possibly naive) view they are the same. Channel trims output to channels. Those same "output to channels" paths should feed the input to the downmix engine. That would make them kind of the same thing if the signal path is what I've just said. Which it might not be; it just seemed logical to me that it would work that way.

Input and output channels are different things so this adjustment operates on the input channel whereas an avr trim is on the physical output channel.

One long standing feature request is to split apart the output format from the mix target, I would think if that happened then it would become feasible to adjust a parameter like this on the fly. It would be nice to see that particular feature implemented.

Hendrik · « **Reply #30 on:** July 16, 2019, 04:17:06 pm »

Quote from: mattkhan on July 16, 2019, 04:07:11 pm

One long standing feature request is to split apart the output format from the mix target, I would think if that happened then it would become feasible to adjust a parameter like this on the fly. It would be nice to see that particular feature implemented.

Actually, not really. We already have this under the hood afterall, its just not very configurable, just those few pre-defined formats that have empty channel added in. This doesn't really change the order of processing.

The problem with the processing order is that basically everything in the DSP box you can select are plugins that can be freely re-ordered and are run through a plugin framework, just like one might expect from how the UI works. Except Output Format and Volume Leveling. Those two are part of the core audio chain, and not a "DSP plugin". Changing this would be a massive undertaking, so that eg. you could park a PEQ before output format and mess with the input channels. I wouldn't expect this to be possible anytime soon (or perhaps ever, but you never know).

Its not something we're just stubborn about to keep it at the front, but its quite simply "stuck" there for technical reasons.

(volume leveling is just an extra multiplier that gets applied in the Output Format component, its not actually its own thing)

mattkhan · « **Reply #31 on:** July 16, 2019, 04:45:24 pm »

Ok I see. Well it would be nice to able to choose from 5.1 or 7.1 as a target for high channel counts, basically generalising the 5.1 in a 7.1 container special case for any more than 6 channel output format

vairulez · « **Reply #32 on:** July 16, 2019, 10:31:19 pm »

Quote from: Hendrik on July 16, 2019, 12:58:18 pm

We don't really expose any audio DSP settings there, and it would not take effect until playback was stopped and started again. Is there any particular reason you would need to constantly adjust it mid-playback?

well on my htpc I only use theaterview and a remote. what's more I only watch a movie once and then delete it. For me this feature is a per movie feature not a defintive setting.
So if I need to use this feature when i watch a movie and discover the voicie is mixed too low, i have to stop the movie, plug in a mouse/keyboard, get out of theaterview, go into options, go back to theaterview and start the movie again. This is not very user friendly and not something I can show to the rest of the family !!!

PGibby · « **Reply #33 on:** July 19, 2019, 04:47:05 pm »

I've downloaded the last build and.....this feature is working great. This is so much better for those of us with really dynamic 2ch setups. All the dynamics remain, but can now have the total volume a couple db lower but maintain good dialog.

Thank you!

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Author Topic: Feature Request: Boosting Center Channel with JRSS Downmixing (Read 2597 times)