Topic: Album Artist Sort in Library Views (Read 4868 times)

ferrarabrainpan · « **on:** July 21, 2019, 04:47:17 pm »

This seems like it ought to be simple but I'm stumped. Almost all my library views show Artist Thumbnails in the top pane, listed A to Z by the first letter in the Artist Name. So you will see John Cale among the artists whose first word begins with J and The Beatles down with all the other bands beginning with the word "the" in the T's. Now I can add an Album Artist Sort tag using my dBpoweramp tag editor specifying "Cale, John" or "Beatles, The" and the artists will still be listed in the library view by first letter of first word of Album Artist, not recognizing the sort tag. And when I try to use the tag editor within MC24 in the left column (which I know how to do) there are no sort tags listed for artist, album artist, composer, etc. I have to actually change the album artist name to "Cale, John" and then it gets displayed as such in the library view. Isn't there a simple and quick way to get the library to display album artist names according to smart designations which alphabetize proper names by first letter of last name and bands alphabetically without the "the". I think you know what I am saying. I don't mind bulk tagging all the files by a single album artist with a sort tag but I can't figure out how to do this.

wer · « **Reply #1 on:** July 21, 2019, 07:49:07 pm »

It's not simple. This is somewhat tricky. Glynor and others have put a lot of thought into this, so you should take a look at this thread for inspiration:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=104077.0

MC does have an option to ignore articles when sorting, so you can turn that on to get part way to what you want.

The fundamental issue is that names follow no set rule. For example, Bachman Turner Overdrive, Ludwig von Beethoven, Lana Del Rey, Frank Sinatra, Led Zeppelin, and The Beach Boys are all perfectly good names, but a computer cannot understand why one algorithm cannot properly sort all of them. Except for The Beach Boys, which contains an article, they all look alike. To properly sort them, you must have special knowledge of what's "right."

So basically to solve the problem 100% of the time, you must create a separate sorting field, where you have structured the name so that it does sort properly. You display one field, and sort by the other.

There are ways to automate the creation of some of the contents of that field, but it's impossible to do it 100% without some manual editing.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

ferrarabrainpan · « **Reply #2 on:** July 21, 2019, 08:22:04 pm »

I understand what you are saying, and I was not expecting the program to figure out the correct sorting of all names by some sort of rule. What I was thinking would be possible is for me to tag all of the files by a given album artist, within JRiver (not necessarily within the file itself, which would take more time because I have to do it within every album folder by that artist instead of just highlighting all the files at once by the artist in the library file view). So I don't mind that I have to tell MC24 that every album by Henry Cow (a band) should be sorted as "Henry Cow" and every album by Henry Cowell (a composer) should be sorted as "Cowell, Henry" because a personal name is customarily sorted by last name. And I don't mind applying a tag to every band that goes by a name that starts with "the" so that they get sorted as "Band, The" and "Mothers of Invention, The" and so forth. That is what I thought the various sort tags in dBpoweramp file editor are supposed to tell the player to do, and yet MC24 does not seem to recognize that the file has an Album Artist (Sort) tag applied.

I didn't think this would be that complicated, but if it is then I will just leave it the way it is because I'd rather have things listed with the name as it actually is written than to have to have it displayed with last name, first name or band name, the, and I will know to look for John Cale under J and the Beatles under T.

blgentry · « **Reply #3 on:** July 21, 2019, 08:33:26 pm »

It's worth pointing out how to turn off articles. Also telling you what that means might be helpful. Articles in like "a", "the", etc can be ignored by MC during sorting. So "The Beatles" would ignore "the" and sort the Beatles under B. Similarly "A Flock of Seagulls" would sort under F.

To enable this feature:

Tools > Options > Tree & View > Sorting > Ignore Articles > (checked)

This option, in my opinion, should be on by default. There are 3 or 4 settings like this that REALLY should be set "out of the box" and are not. I encourage you to turn this on as it fixes a big sorting problem.

As for sorting by other tags, this is definitely possible. If dbpoweramp has written a tag to your files that defines the artist sorting the way you want it, MC can use it. But MC has to read the tag first. MC reads most common tags automatically. If this one is non-standard, I believe you will need to create a new library field for it and then do "update library from Tags" on your files in order to have MC re-read the files, find the new tag, and then populate the MC Library Field you created to hold this value. I'm not super skilled at this; perhaps someone else can offer further insight.

Finally, the link that wer provided to the thread where Glynor describes his setup *might* be worth reading. It's rather intricate, but it allows for very fine grained control over the Artist sorting by having an automatic "swapped artist" field that can be used for sorting... or not for those artists that should not be swapped. It's a bit of work to set it up, but it can definitely be done and might be worth it to you if sorting is especially important to you.

I'm a bit of a weirdo when it comes to this. I have such trouble remembering the rules of how bands are supposed to be sorted, that I sort all of my physical media the way MC does: Strictly in alphabetical order by the first character of the band name... but also ignoring articles. So Bruce Springsteen is under B in my physical collection and so are The Beatles. I'm into simplicity.

Best of luck to you.

Brian.

wer · « **Reply #4 on:** July 21, 2019, 08:44:55 pm »

As Brian mentioned, MC might have read the tags already. Bring up the edit pane for one of the files you tagged in dbpoweramp, and view the additional tags to see if it's already populated. If it's not, use the procedure Brian gave to populate it.

Once you have the tag recognized it's easy to modify the view to sort by whatever field you want.

It's funny, but personally I adopt the same approach as you Brian. I even trim the name of ole Ludwig to just "Beethoven" so that there will be no sorting complications. Simpler is better in this case.

-Will

ferrarabrainpan · « **Reply #5 on:** July 21, 2019, 09:06:57 pm »

Quote

MC reads most common tags automatically. If this one is non-standard, I believe you will need to create a new library field for it and then do "update library from Tags" on your files in order to have MC re-read the files, find the new tag, and then populate the MC Library Field you created to hold this value. I'm not super skilled at this; perhaps someone else can offer further insight.

I think I understand what you're saying, but how do I create a new library field within JRiver? In fact I have not tagged my files with Album Artist Sort data, and I don't want to have to do that for every single album/folder by a given artist. I thought if I could enter a sorting tag for the files in bulk within JRiver by simply highlighting files and using the tag feature in the left column, then I wouldn't have to do it in my dBpoweramp file editor.

I have seen how JRiver behaves in some cases, like when I tagged files in the Grouping field in dBpoweramp editor, JRiver did not read those tags and I had to enter the data again within JRiver in the Grouping field which was empty when I viewed the tags in my library tag editor. Not sure if I am making myself clear, but anyway. If there is a way I can create and populate an Album Artist Sort tag field within JRiver then I will do it. If I have to go and tag every album folder one at a time for a given artist then I'm not going to that much trouble, and I can just live with it the way it is.

I do appreciate your replies, so thanks.

blgentry · « **Reply #6 on:** July 23, 2019, 05:25:55 pm »

Quote from: ferrarabrainpan on July 21, 2019, 09:06:57 pm

I think I understand what you're saying, but how do I create a new library field within JRiver?

Tools > Options > Library & Folders > manage library fields > Add new field

It's easy to create a new field for your own use. You will have a little bit to learn about field types and their options of course. However, adding a new field to *receive tags* from a file that has non-standard tags is a different story. That gets very detailed as the names must match exactly and you end up having to look through tag dumps to get the exact field names.

Quote

I thought if I could enter a sorting tag for the files in bulk within JRiver by simply highlighting files and using the tag feature in the left column, then I wouldn't have to do it in my dBpoweramp file editor.

You most certainly can do that! Just make a new field to be your sorting field, highlight files, and type in values in the Tag Action window. Make sure to choose an edit type of List Selection Box. That way, once you type in an artist once, it then becomes part of the list and you can just find it in the list and check the check box. This really helps with not making typos while trying to type in artist names over and over again.

Quote

If I have to go and tag every album folder one at a time for a given artist then I'm not going to that much trouble, and I can just live with it the way it is.

You can tag entire artists at once. Just select an artist and highlight all files. Then set the sorting tag of your choice (that you created up above) to the right value. It will set it for all files at once whether it's one album, or fifty albums.

You will, of course, have to do this for each artist that you want to change the sorting on.

Brian.

ferrarabrainpan · « **Reply #7 on:** July 23, 2019, 05:43:04 pm »

All of this is good to know, Brian, so thanks. However, I just did what you said, created an Album Artist Sort field so that it shows up in the tag window. Then I filled in the field for all files by Elliott Smith with "Smith, Elliott" and closed and relaunched MC24 and it still shows Elliott Smith in the Artists library view window among the artist names beginning with E, not S. Is there a way to get the program to understand that that tag serves as an instruction for alphabetically displaying albums and files by that artist?

blgentry · « **Reply #8 on:** July 23, 2019, 06:44:13 pm »

Your question raises more questions, but let's see if I can give you some explanation.

Every view has sorting options. By default, it tries to sort by something that makes sense. Artist views sort by Artist. You can click on the dropdown menu at the top of the view with the little down arrow and you'll find a sub menu there including a sort menu. From there you can choose "custom" and choose one or more fields to sort by.

But think about it for a minute. If you tell MC to sort by your Artist Sort field, then it's going to sort anything with a value in that field *first* and everything else next. Which is not what you want. What you really want is a field that already has the original artist name in it, but one that you can modify on a case by case basis. Right? Or do you intend to hand set this field for each artist in your collection?

If you intend to hand set it for every single artist (which actually wouldn't be too bad), then you're all set. If you need that field to have a default value that you can override.... there's a well known procedure for this, but it's rather detailed.

When you write back, we'll see if you need any more help or information to get you going.

Good luck.

Brian.

ferrarabrainpan · « **Reply #9 on:** July 23, 2019, 06:56:40 pm »

Hmm... $:-\$ It sounds like if I did as you suggest that it would indeed sort artists by album artist sort field so as to display them in the customary order, alphabetically by last name for individuals and without beginning articles such as "the" for bands, etc, but I don't want the artist name under the thumbnail to read "Smith, Elliott" in order to have it sorted under "S". Another thing to consider is that I would be doing this project a bit at a time rather than tagging every different artist with the new tag at one go. So until I get all the artists tagged with the new sort tag many of them would have no value entered for that tag, which might create difficulties. I'm feeling like I will just leave things alone. As long as I know where to look for an artist in the library view, it really doesn't matter if I find it under the first name or in the "the" section which has a few dozen bands and ensembles all lumped together there. And half the time if I want to see the files for a given artist I will just type the name in the search box rather than scrolling thru the thumbnails.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #10 on:** July 23, 2019, 07:51:42 pm »

Turn on the setting at "Tools > Options > Tree & View > Sorting > Ignore Articles" as suggested in Brian's first post above.

Just do it. Now.

In fact, check all four boxes in the "Tools > Options > Tree & View > Sorting" section. All should be defaulted on really, except maybe "Save changes on list header clicks", which you may not want to use. A personal preference that one.

Then look at the sorting of all those Albums and Artists again.

The other issue, sorting by last name, is a tiny bit more complex, but not that hard. Go back and read, in detail, the thread the WER linked to in his first post above, the second post is this thread.

ferrarabrainpan · « **Reply #11 on:** July 23, 2019, 09:36:43 pm »

Okay, Ignore Articles checked. That was easy.

As for Glynor's lengthy and detailed instructions on how to sort and display proper names of artists as wanted (in the linked thread from Wer's post), the whole procedure seemed intimidating to me and so I am not going to attempt that.

wer · « **Reply #12 on:** July 23, 2019, 10:27:04 pm »

Since you seem to only want very easy solutions, here's the last bit I will throw out.

1. Add the new sort field you created to the displayed columns in the view you want to modify.
2. Now sort on that field, and select all the tracks where the field is empty.
3. Now hit F2 to edit them all, and type =[Album Artist]
And hit enter.

All those empty fields will now have the contents of the Album Artist field. So now you can sort by your new field without worry.

4. Go to the drop down menu onnthe tab for you view, and select
Sort by->Custom->Add and select your newly created sorting field.

You will see your view displays the artist name normally but sorts by your new field, if you have done everything correctly.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #13 on:** July 23, 2019, 11:07:46 pm »

Yes, Glynor's posts can be a bit intimidating. My suggestion to read it was more about a learning process, so that you understand how MC works a bit better.

For example, you seem to have assumed that if you created an Album Artist Sort tag using your copy of dBpoweramp tag editor, and MC saw that tag, that MC would automatically sort by that tag. MC doesn't work that way. It has far more powerful sorting capabilities than just sorting by one predefined sort field. I know some media managers and players work that way, but MC doesn't.

Also, WER neglected a most important step:

5. Once your Views are sorted by your new sort field, and that field contains a copy of the [Album Artist] tag, you can edit your new sort field to display the way you want. For example, change your sort field for "John Cale" to "Cale, John" for his albums. One way you can do that very easily is to;
5a. Select all your John Cale tracks.
5b. Right-click on the new sort field for any highlighted track, and select "Rename".
5c. Enter the following expression to replace the existing data: =Swap([new sort field name]) Or you could just use the original [Artist] field value as the source to swap names around. i.e. =Swap([Artist])

Now you are sorting by your new sort field, and you have a quick and easy way to swap around first and last names, for those tracks where that should be done.

Easy.

ferrarabrainpan · « **Reply #14 on:** July 23, 2019, 11:33:41 pm »

I had to reread the above two posts several times carefully, and with some trepidation I have tried it out...

Eureka!

Thanks, RoderickGI and wer!

ferrarabrainpan · « **Reply #15 on:** July 24, 2019, 12:05:25 am »

I just noticed an odd but serendipitous consequence of checking the Ignore Articles box: My LES BAXTER albums got sorted as Baxter because Les was interpreted as the French plural definite article les

RoderickGI · « **Reply #16 on:** July 24, 2019, 12:16:18 am »

Yep. You can edit which articles should be ignored as well, which is a good thing.

Wasn't so hard after all, huh?

wer · « **Reply #17 on:** July 24, 2019, 12:44:04 am »

I didn't include that step because it wasn't "most important."

He already knew how to edit his new field and put the name in there how he wanted it. The issue was making it usable by getting rid of the empties. Keeping it simple...

ferrarabrainpan · « **Reply #18 on:** July 24, 2019, 12:46:42 am »

"Yep. You can edit which articles should be ignored as well, which is a good thing."

How do I effectively do that? In ignoring the article "la" it mistakenly sorted the band whose name is "La Dusseldorf" under D when it should be under L. I deleted the article "la" from the list of articles in the sorting section of Tree & View tools, but it had no effect. It is still sorting that album artist under D.

Will I have to disable the Ignore Articles box after all, and then apply sort tags to all band names beginning with "The"?

NEVER MIND, I had not deleted the "la" after all. Now I did and it works properly.

wer · « **Reply #19 on:** July 24, 2019, 12:52:52 am »

Check the articles list and make sure it's not in there a second time.

Check the field you're sorting, and make sure it has the correct value for that band.

UPDATE: Looks like you edited your post after I posted, and found that "la" was still in the list.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #20 on:** July 24, 2019, 01:42:28 am »

Quote from: wer on July 24, 2019, 12:44:04 am

Keeping it simple...

blgentry · « **Reply #21 on:** July 24, 2019, 07:15:05 am »

Great job guys! Thanks for filling in details. Wer, you outlined one of my proposed solutions. I had actually tested it while typing my last reply.

@ferrarabrainpan keep in mind that you'll need to populate your Artist Sort field for every new album you add, otherwise they will be unsorted since they have no value in that field. It's not hard, but it's ongoing work. There's a way to make this more automated; it's essentially Glynor's way plus or minus. But the baby steps you've taken (quite a few steps actually) are getting you ever closer to that goal.

Brian.

ferrarabrainpan · « **Reply #22 on:** July 24, 2019, 08:34:45 am »

Opening up MC24 this morning to play something new by Christopher Lloyd Clarke and seeing a library view that matches the alphabetical ordering of the CDs on my shelves is a good thing!

glynor · « **Reply #23 on:** July 24, 2019, 10:18:59 am »

FWIW, I don't even use "my method" though only because I've been too lazy, thus far, to fully implement it. My [Artist] fields are all still tagged manually with "reversed names" like: Swift, Taylor

This is frustrating for two reasons: (1) because when I interchange files with other applications which use the [Album Artist] field, I have to remember to clear it or duplicate the [Artist] tag there (most files you download from Amazon or whatever are automatically tagged with an [Album Artist] duplicate of the [Artist] field), and (2) because if you use MC's ability to tag multiple artists in the [Artist] field (for "featured" co-artists or whatever) then the files sort wrong if you don't use MC's [Album Artist (Auto)] system.

I've been lately trying to decide whether to switch to my previously discussed system (linked above) or just keep going like I am and actually start using/implementing the [Album Artist] features in MC.

It is worth saying, by the way, that I think most of what ferrarabrainpan was looking for could have been solved without resorting to custom fields with MC's Artist Album (Auto) system and tagging them manually with solo artist names reversed:
wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Album_Artist_and_Album_Artist_(Auto)

ferrarabrainpan · « **Reply #24 on:** July 24, 2019, 10:41:42 am »

That link to the wiki leads nowhere. Maybe there is info on the wiki you're alluding to at a different URL?

An easy, smart and painless (I have chronic pain in my hands from computer use and music practice, so typing and editing at the PC is something I must limit) way to sort artists, etc, would be a big selling point for me to consider upgrading to MC25. For now, what I am doing will work.

JimH · « **Reply #25 on:** July 24, 2019, 10:47:36 am »

Please try the link again.

BryanC · « **Reply #26 on:** July 24, 2019, 10:51:55 am »

Perhaps YADB could incorporate an [Album Artist (sort)] tag that was manually curated. I don't think this is solvable with heuristics.

ferrarabrainpan · « **Reply #27 on:** July 24, 2019, 10:54:41 am »

Okay, link works now, thanks. Good to know about that. Every audio file I import to MC24 I first manually tag, whether it's ripped or downloaded, and my practice is to use "Various Artists" for all my compilation albums.

wer · « **Reply #28 on:** July 24, 2019, 12:16:23 pm »

Coincidentally, I also use the phrase "Various Artists" for compilation albums. I don't like the look of "(Multiple Artists)"

It would be cool if there were an option for the phrase MC uses in populating the Album Artists (Auto) field, instead of it being hardcoded to "(Multiple Artists)" Then you could just set it and forget it.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Album Artist Sort in Library Views (Read 4868 times)