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Author Topic: What is MQA?  (Read 6883 times)

kenny63

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What is MQA?
« on: July 24, 2019, 01:10:21 pm »

what is MQA and it seems to be higher than DSD ,I don't understand who knows.
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Vocalpoint

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what is MQA and it seems to be higher than DSD ,I don't understand who knows.

Simply Google MQA to find out what it's really all about.

Not a lot to get excited about - and it is certainly not close to DSD.

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kenny63

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ok thank you
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: What is MQA?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2019, 02:13:43 pm »

It's audiophile snake oil, in my opinion. Worse enough it's a lossy format that claims to be lossless.
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dtc

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Re: What is MQA?
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2019, 09:10:41 pm »

MQA  is a solution to a problem that may or may not be important. The basic premise behind it is that high resolution audio should be streamed but since there is not much signal above 20 Khz, in order to conserve bandwidth, the portion above 20 KHz can be separated out and delivered as a lossy signal.

Basically MQA delivers lossless audio up to 20 KHz but also takes the content above 20 KHz and  encodes it a signal that it hides below the noise level. On playback, the high sample rate data is retrieved  from the encoded data. The idea is that that high frequency content is small, so even an lossy representation of it is adequate to provide the high frequency content.

The theory is well developed and very sound given the premise.  I think you would be hard pressed to hear the difference between the original high sample rate original and the MQA decoded result.

In addition, MQA provides specific information for the appropriate filters to be used by a DAC  on playback.

So, the full MQ decoding process includes decoding the content back to a high sample rate and then further applying a final upscaling and filtering process based on the characteristics of the DAC.  The first part can be do in software. The final process is specific to a particular DAC so it can only be done in hardware.

The MQA content will always be an incomplete representation of the original high sample rate data, but it is probably pretty close for most listeners. Whether it is equal or worse than than the original high sample rate file depends on the equipment being used and the ears of the listener.

One addition advantages of MQA is that most of the albums have been remastered in the process. So, even if you are only listening to the Redbook portion, the sound may well be better than other versions.


To Awesome Donkey's point, the developers of MQA have never claimed it is a toally lossless process. They do claim that the data below 20 KHz is basically lossless but they readily admit that the high sample rate data is lossy, based on their proprietary algorithms. I say basically, because the high frequency data is embedded below the noise floor. So, technically the base signal is not lossless, but for all practical purposes it is.


MQA is a proprietary process and is therefore criticized by many, simply because it is proprietary.  It is meant to deliver high sample rate content in a smaller package. And, it is meant to optimize the filtering based on the specifics of the DAC. In doing that, it does exactly what is is meant to do.  The question is whether any given listener can hear the difference.


As an example, Tidal takes a MQA file and decodes the high sample rate encoded data and assembles it into a high resolution signal. A MQA DAC can do the same decoding but also adds the upsampling and filtering designed for that DAC.

There are other nuances to the process, but those are the basics.

So, if you have access to Tidal or another MQA source and/or a MQA DAC, listen and decide for yourself.  The remastering, independent of everything else, may be enough for your to hear an improvement over previous Redbook versions.



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wer

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Re: What is MQA?
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2019, 10:19:59 pm »

MQA  is a solution to a problem that may or may not be important. The basic premise behind it is that high resolution audio should be streamed but since there is not much signal above 20 Khz, in order to conserve bandwidth, the portion above 20 KHz can be separated out and delivered as a lossy signal.

I don't claim that dtc is asserting the above as his own opinion rather than reporting on what was said by MQA's creators.  So nothing personal...

I do disagree with the above statement.

MQA is a solution to a "problem" that we don't have. The basic premise behind it is that high quality music should be streamed and otherwise delivered and reproduced in a way that makes money for MQA's creators.  This is done by licensing to both the recording and playback sides of the industry. 

MQA'd audio sounds different from the source because it has been processed.  Some may think that different sounds better.  That's fine.

One of the points that dtc omitted that supports Awesome Donkey's snakeoil position is the fact the MQA creators claim that if you apply MQA to red book audio, played without MQA decoding, MQA will still make it sound "better."  It throws away bits from the 16-bit CD audio to make room for the MQA bits, but still makes it sound "better".  Consider that.  Consider how that works.

We already have methods to "improve" the sound of bit-perfect CD audio, and we have them without paying new license fees. Equalization, spatial processing, etc.  Things that JRiver does in DSP studio.

I have zero objection to anyone who enjoys MQA-processed audio, or thinks it sounds better.  I also have no objection to someone that wants to use an equalizer or DSP and thinks that makes their music sound better.

I do have an objection when my audio equipment starts getting more expensive because manufacturers think that they have to pay the MQA tax, because the writers of Stereophile assert that if they don't they're missing out on a revolution in audio quality and therefore their equipment is not worthy of purchase.
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michael123

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Re: What is MQA?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2019, 11:25:23 pm »

I think you would be hard pressed to hear the difference between the original high sample rate original and the MQA decoded result.

their claim (and of Stereophile and friends) that MQA sounds better than PCM high-rez, it is originated from ::)
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dtc

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Re: What is MQA?
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2019, 08:47:44 am »

One of the points that dtc omitted that supports Awesome Donkey's snakeoil position is the fact the MQA creators claim that if you apply MQA to red book audio, played without MQA decoding, MQA will still make it sound "better. It throws away bits from the 16-bit CD audio to make room for the MQA bits, but still makes it sound "better".  Consider that.  Consider how that works .

MQA's claim is that a MQA track will sound better than a conventional Redbook CD because it is mastered differently. Here is what Bob Stuart actual says regarding this.

"An MQA CD is a Red Book CD and is 100% compatible with any existing CD player. The audio on the disc is MQA-encoded PCM, and will play back happily without a decoder. In this case, the sound quality is slightly better than a typical CD, because the audio is already de-blurred in the studio. However. if the bitstream is passed to an MQA decoder, it is unfolded to 176kHz (in this case) and rendered to the DAC at 24-bit.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/mqa-encoded-cds-yes#0zTKYAuDzA4ApZHa.99

As to the number of bits, MQA asserts that the bits that are "thrown away" are below the noise floor, so replacing them with the encoded high frequency data has no effect on what the listener hears.   So the real discussion should be how many bits are needed before you get to noise. Can you really hear the difference between 13 bit and 16 bit audio given the noise floor of typical recordings?


As to licensing fees, the main source of MQA music for many is services like Tidal. Tidal has a very large collection of MQA tracks, yet their price has not changed because of that. Sure their is a licensing fee in there, but it is pretty small. Of course there is also a licensing fee for Dolby or DTS sound in movies. Companies like to get paid for their development. As for MC DSPs, I pay a  fee for those and other features of MC. They are not free and I keep paying for the addition of new features.


Honestly, I think the MQA "revolution" is over. Some content will continue to come out in MQA and some wouldn't.  Some DACs will incorporate it and some will not. It is highly unlikely to become ubiquitous.  Things like MQA CDs will be a niche market, just like HDCD and high res audio in general.
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Hendrik

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Re: What is MQA?
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2019, 11:07:49 am »

MQA's claim is that a MQA track will sound better than a conventional Redbook CD because it is mastered differently.

But that part is just marketing then, isn't it? They could use "better" mastering for any conventional CD, if thats the key driving factor. Don't need proprietary MQA playback support for that.
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dtc

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Re: What is MQA?
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2019, 03:05:02 pm »

But that part is just marketing then, isn't it? They could use "better" mastering for any conventional CD, if thats the key driving factor. Don't need proprietary MQA playback support for that.

The deblurring technology is part of the solution, not the whole solution.   It is not the "key driving factor". It is just one part of the full solution.

So, no it is not just "marketing". Deblurring is just one technology in the whole chain of what MQA delivers.

Remember, the issue was whether MQA provides any advantage when the whole MQA decoding process is not used.  Stuart's answer is yes, but it can provide even more if the whole process is used.
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wer

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Re: What is MQA?
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2019, 04:06:51 pm »

Sounds like "Even if you don't need our medicine for headaches, it also gets out spots."

It must be acknowledged that bad mastering can make any recording sound like crap.  Witness the "loudness wars" which essentially manifested as a loss of (wasted) bit depth.

Anyone is free to compare a normal well-mastered CD to the same MQA CD on regular non-MQA equipment, and judge for themselves if MQA'd 13 bits sounds better than 16.  And then they can compare that to the original 16-bit recording run through an equalizer or spatial processor.

If they think the MQA sounds better, then they've learned something: we don't need 16 bits, just 13 and a different mastering process; we don't need MQA.

If they think the original 16-bit recording sounds better, then the same thing has been learned: you don't need MQA, just enjoy your DSP.

If part of the foundation of an argument is not genuine or credible, then the observer is justified in looking with a jaundiced eye on the rest of it.

MQA claimed to Stereophile that 70% of the sound improvement was in the mastering/encoding side, so you didn't need the renderer to be MQA to realize it.  If 70% of the improvement is on the mastering side, that's a good justification for not needing an end-to-end proprietary licensed solution, but for just needing better mastering.
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dtc

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Re: What is MQA?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2019, 07:03:02 pm »

Sounds like "Even if you don't need our medicine for headaches, it also gets out spots."

It must be acknowledged that bad mastering can make any recording sound like crap.  Witness the "loudness wars" which essentially manifested as a loss of (wasted) bit depth.

Anyone is free to compare a normal well-mastered CD to the same MQA CD on regular non-MQA equipment, and judge for themselves if MQA'd 13 bits sounds better than 16.  And then they can compare that to the original 16-bit recording run through an equalizer or spatial processor.


The re-mastering process that MQA uses is not the typical sound engineer doing his magic or his destruction to the music. It is not about the loudness wars nor is it about better balancing the various instruments/voices.  It uses an apodizing filter to remove artifacts that the ADC conversions has introduced into the process.  That is very different than the typical mastering process.  Its value is fully realized when matched to the apodizing filter in the DAC.

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If they think the MQA sounds better, then they've learned something: we don't need 16 bits, just 13 and a different mastering process; we don't need MQA.

If they think the original 16-bit recording sounds better, then the same thing has been learned: you don't need MQA, just enjoy your DSP.


Stuart claims the MQA track will sound better because of the mastering/filtering done in the studio. He also claims that that is only part of the process. The rest of the end to end solution further improves the signal.  His goal was to get the best solution he could for high resolution mucis, not something that was merely somewhat better than existing CDs.

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If part of the foundation of an argument is not genuine or credible, then the observer is justified in looking with a jaundiced eye on the rest of it.


You have raised nothing that  shows the approach is not genuine or credible.

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MQA claimed to Stereophile that 70% of the sound improvement was in the mastering/encoding side, so you didn't need the renderer to be MQA to realize it.  If 70% of the improvement is on the mastering side, that's a good justification for not needing an end-to-end proprietary licensed solution, but for just needing better mastering.

Can your provide a link to that reference. It is not in the Stereophile article I linked to.

To say "you just need better mastering" is not what MQA is providing. Why would you want to stop at a 70% solution?    MQA wanted to bring 100% of the new technology they developed to market. If you don't want to use the end to end process, then you do not have to.  But that does not mean that others may want to use it.

Remember, one of the main goals of MQA was to provide high res files in a compressed format. To realize that you need more than just the mastering part. Let's not forget the goal of the development.

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wer

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Re: What is MQA?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2019, 07:43:32 pm »

This is the last I'm going to comment on this subject.  A question was asked, some people have chimed in, and now I'm going to leave the original poster to reach his own opinions.

The re-mastering process that MQA uses is not the typical sound engineer doing his magic or his destruction to the music. It is not about the loudness wars nor is it about better balancing the various instruments/voices.  It uses an apodizing filter to remove artifacts that the ADC conversions has introduced into the process.  That is very different than the typical mastering process.  Its value is fully realized when matched to the apodizing filter in the DAC.

I know what it is.  You miss the point.  It's about what gets put on the disc.  The reference to the loudness wars invokes the fact that in that context, those seeking the most accurate reproduction decried the loss of bits.  With MQA CDs without decoding, we're still losing bits, but now some of those people believe fewer bits are just fine.

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You have raised nothing that  shows the approach is not genuine or credible.

To you.  You think that because you are a believer.  That's fine.  I'm not going to try and change that.

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Remember, one of the main goals of MQA was to provide high res files in a compressed format. To realize that you need more than just the mastering part. Let's not forget the goal of the development.

I have not forgotten the goal of the development. You just think it is a different goal than I do.

Regarding Stereophile, you should feel free to research on their website yourself.  It was from an article Jim Austin wrote when he was testing MQA.

I'll close by saying everyone should trust their own ears, and their own wallets, as to what is important in their own personal quest for more enjoyable audio.

It's been a pleasant and interesting conversation, but I don't think further back and forth can benefit the participants or the observers, so I'm done.  Everyone have a nice day.   :)
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dtc

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Re: What is MQA?
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2019, 08:36:58 pm »

It's been a pleasant and interesting conversation, but I don't think further back and forth can benefit the participants or the observers, so I'm done.  Everyone have a nice day.   :)

I would agree. 

I would say I neither a believer or a non-believer. I am simply providing the information that Bob Stuart has provided.

In the end, for me, it is the sound that matters. And, to many, the MQA process produces a better sound. It is up to the listener to decide for themselves.

For more information, people can look here

https://www.stereophile.com/content/mqa-questions-and-answers

 




My one last comment is that if you reference a particular article, you should provide a link, not ask others to search for it. Without the context of the comment, it is hard to evaluate.

Enjoy the music.
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DJLegba

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Re: What is MQA?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2019, 08:58:54 pm »

I would say I neither a believer or a non-believer. I am simply providing the information that Bob Stuart has provided.

Bob Stuart's information is a sales pitch. He hasn't provided much in the way of facts. Here's a link to some factual information:

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/mqa-a-review-of-controversies-concerns-and-cautions-r701/
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dtc

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Re: What is MQA?
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2019, 10:00:03 pm »

Bob Stuart's information is a sales pitch. He hasn't provided much in the way of facts. Here's a link to some factual information:

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/mqa-a-review-of-controversies-concerns-and-cautions-r701/

Bob Stuart has provided good information well beyond a sales pitch.

The link is to a standard article from one of  the most outspoken critics of MQA.  He is hardly impartial.  His screeds about MQA and DRM are over the top and, I hate to say, make one wonder about his impartiality.

The are supporters and critics of MQA.  Given the history of these discussions, there will never be an agreement on MQA. Hate to say, but MQA is kind of the Trump of the audio world, in terms of the level of disagreement.

Bob Stuart was awarded a Lifetime Achievement Award by CEDIA. He is also a Fellow of the AES. You do not get that honor for being a salesman. People who know about his work simply refuse to say he is nothing but a snake oil salesmen. He deserves more respect that he has received in this whole MQA discussion.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/audio-statesman-meridian-founder-bob-stuart

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/bob-stuart-honored-with-cedias-lifetime-achievement-award/

 
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JimH

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Re: What is MQA?
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2019, 06:31:38 am »

Closing this now.
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