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[mpg732]

I just played around with MRMC on an AppleTv 4k.  Still like MC better.  I notice one thing, on the ApplTV the surround sound was better.   I could hear so much more in the surround then in MC.  My MC is on a windows 10 system.  In MC I selected my receiver (WASAPI) output for audio.  I also Bitstreaming.  I have not made any other changes.  I am using Bitstreaming for I have so many different audio tracts ranging from stereo to 5.1 to 71. to ATOMS.  I like that so my Receiver will change to the appropriate playback.  Meaning when I switch from a 5.1 to a 7.1 one, the receiver plays accordingly.   Any recommendations to improve the surround sound in MC?

[Spike1000]

Try using a surround sound test track. It may just be that the 'surround' levels are louder on MRMC.

Spike

[mpg732]

thanks for the reply.  Already thought of that.  What I do hear is already pretty loud.  It things like back ground music tracks, stuff like that I don't hear in MC that I do in MRMC.  As far as I know it could very well be an AppleTV thing, just not sure.

[wer]

You say you are bitstreaming but your results are what can occur if you are not, so first please double check.  If you are properly bitstreaming, Audio Path will indicate "(bitstreaming)" under OUTPUT, and the Audio Path icon will be blue.  Google "jriver audio path" if you need help finding it.

Play a surround sound test track that audibly identifies each channel, and play it to ensure you hear every individual channel, through the correct speaker.

Totally not hearing certain sounds can happen if some channels are not passed or reproduced.  Movie soundtracks often have more channels than people have physical speakers.

In JRiver DSP studio, if Output Format is enabled with "no upmixing or downmixing" selected, channels will be muted if the number of channels selected is less than the number of channels in the source audio.

Also, changes to Parametric Equalizer or Room Correction can produce the symptoms you describe, of not hearing certain sounds (channels).

The above issues in DSP Studio should not have any effect IF you are correctly bitstreaming.

Finally, your receiver may have channel mapping capabilities, and those might be configured differently per input.  Check to ensure these settings are the same for your input for the AppleTV as for the input connected to the PC. 

Other receiver settings could also make some sounds more or less audible.  These include dynamic range settings, dialogue adjustments, surround fields, and equalizer/room correction settings.  Many receivers allow these things to be set differently for each input.  All these receiver settings  can affect the JRiver sound even if you are bitstreaming.  You will need to check.

When you bitstream with JRiver, it outputs the exact same data as a standalone bluray player. I don't know about MRMC on AppleTV.  For all I know, you could have some "enhancement" turned on there that is altering the sound it outputs.

I had a problem just like yours long ago, and it was due to some obscure receiver setting.

[mpg732]

Thanks for the info.  Yes I did confirm I am bitstreaming.  Just to mention that when I hooked up the AppleTV I used the same input and same HDMI cable to the Receiver.  Made no changes to it.  So I am guessing its the ApplTV. 

[wer]

There is no reason to bitstream using JRiver, unless for Atmos. And Atmos is only beneficial if you actually have an Atmos speaker layout.

You will experience the most features and compatibility with MC if you allow it to decode and output to your receiver as PCM.  Configure this in Output Format, and select the max number of channels your receiver can support.  Audio quality will be unaffected.

By doing this, you will enable DSP, equalization, room correction, volume levelling, and other things in MC that will allow you to boost surround channels as you wish.

Basically the only thing you might lose is the ability for your receiver to dynamic range compression (because there will be no metadata in the PCM stream).  Some people think this is important, for others it's irrelevant.

I used to bitstream but don't any more.  Things are just more flexible without it.

[mpg732]

There is no reason to bitstream using JRiver, unless for Atmos. And Atmos is only beneficial if you actually have an Atmos speaker layout.

You will experience the most features and compatibility with MC if you allow it to decode and output to your receiver as PCM.  Configure this in Output Format, and select the max number of channels your receiver can support.  Audio quality will be unaffected.

By doing this, you will enable DSP, equalization, room correction, volume levelling, and other things in MC that will allow you to boost surround channels as you wish.

Basically the only thing you might lose is the ability for your receiver to dynamic range compression (because there will be no metadata in the PCM stream).  Some people think this is important, for others it's irrelevant.

I used to bitstream but don't any more.  Things are just more flexible without it.

So thanks for the reply.  I do have ATMOS and a room set up but not sure how important that is.  So I turned off bitstream and set in DSP to 7.1.  Then under the effects tab I set room to "Living room" and surround to "max range".  That seemed to make a difference. 

With adjusting channels in the DSP, how is that different if I do it in the receaver?  Is one way better then the other?

Under sound device in MC, my Receiver shows twice, one with (WASAP) and the other (Direct)  I can not get the second one to work at all.  Videos wont play.  Whats the difference and which is better?

Thanks
Mike

[wer]

WASAPI is better than DirectSound, always, unless you can't get WASAPI to work.

It's unlikely you'll hear a difference between adjusting channel volume in the receiver vs in MC. 

The only reason I can think of it mattering is that if you do it in MC and make large increases in volume, JRiver may engage clipping protection (which you can identify in Audio Path if it happens) and you could then dial in a larger volume decrease to avoid clipping.

If you adjust volume inside your receiver, that's more of a "black box" in terms of knowing how it deals with such things.

If you do it in MC you also have the option to setup different types of processing for different zones, and have ZoneSwitch automatically select amongst them based on media type or other rules. E.g you could have different effects for music than for movies.

Those options you mentioned in the Effects DSP do spatial processing, and will definitely have a dramatic impact on the sound, if you like it.

To simply adjust channel levels, use he Room Correction DSP.

I'd also recommend you run Analyze Audio against your movie files, and enable the Volume Levelling DSP.  This will normalize the volume across all your movies so you won't have to adjust the volume so often.  You might be confused into thinking this makes some movies sound "worse" or "less dynamic" but that is just a trick of the mind - it's not worse, just quieter.  People often associate louder with better.

[arcspin]

There is no reason to bitstream using JRiver, unless for Atmos. And Atmos is only beneficial if you actually have an Atmos speaker layout.

You will experience the most features and compatibility with MC if you allow it to decode and output to your receiver as PCM.  Configure this in Output Format, and select the max number of channels your receiver can support.  Audio quality will be unaffected.

By doing this, you will enable DSP, equalization, room correction, volume levelling, and other things in MC that will allow you to boost surround channels as you wish.

Basically the only thing you might lose is the ability for your receiver to dynamic range compression (because there will be no metadata in the PCM stream).  Some people think this is important, for others it's irrelevant.

I used to bitstream but don't any more.  Things are just more flexible without it.

Been a bitstreamer for a very long time and are now playing around with JRiver DSP vs. bitstreaming.
I have Height (Atmos) speakers and they do play nicely in PCM-mode.

I have one follow up question regarding this statement:
Basically the only thing you might lose is the ability for your receiver to dynamic range compression (because there will be no metadata in the PCM stream).


Does this mean that the "Dynamic Volume" presets in my Marantz SR7011 is not working when sending PCM data to the receiver?
http://manuals.marantz.com/SR7011/EU/EN/GFNFSYphwaueoj.php#OKNRMLviuvfmcr


And if so, is the solution to have some sort of compression (night mode) to use JRiver own DSP Adaptive Volume?


To break it down:
Bitstream = Night mode in Receiver?
PCM = Night mode in JRiver?

[wer]

Does this mean that the "Dynamic Volume" presets in my Marantz SR7011 is not working when sending PCM data to the receiver?
http://manuals.marantz.com/SR7011/EU/EN/GFNFSYphwaueoj.php#OKNRMLviuvfmcr

And if so, is the solution to have some sort of compression (night mode) to use JRiver own DSP Adaptive Volume?

To break it down:
Bitstream = Night mode in Receiver?
PCM = Night mode in JRiver?

I can't say with absolute certainty, because I haven't seen technical detail on that Marantz receiver, but based on what they're saying, which is totally consistent with how other manufactures present their DRC technology, I would say yes. You could test this by setting Dynamic Volume to Heavy and then listening to a movie with wide dynamic range (Thor is an excellent test) both in bitstream and PCM; you would hear a difference if it's using the metadata.

If Marantz is relying on the metadata in the soundtrack, that metadata is simply not present if you convert to PCM.

Simply turning on Night Mode in MC will not suffice however, because MC's Night Mode does not work in the same friendly way as the implementations in receivers: MC's implementation makes quiet sounds louder, but does NOT make loud sounds quieter. So overall, MC's Night Mode actually raises the volume of your soundtrack.  This has been discussed extensively:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=101147.0
(I see that sometime in the past that thread was split, so there are a number of lead-in posts that are missing, which explain the context of the discussion. The lead-in posts are here: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,101112 )

After 5 years, I don't see any indication JRiver has interest in improving this functionality.  Because of this, to more faithfully replicate what you would get from your receiver, turning on MC's Night Mode needs to be accompanied by a volume cut.  The best way to do this is with a volume adjustment on all channels with PEQ in DSP Studio. Between -9db and -15db seems about right to me.

Zones are the best way to set this up, so you have one zone with the DRC activated and volume adjusted, and another with it not.  I have a few movies that are mastered with ridiculously loud explosions and dialog too quiet to hear. I set a "DRC" field for these movies, and use ZoneSwitch to automatically play them through the DRC Zone, so that they are always tamed.

I hope this helps...

[arcspin]

Thank you Wer for the information.
I concur, PCM do not carry any metadata and Marantz night mode do not work in PCM mode.
Only when Bitstreaming does Marantz night mode and all others modes (Multi EQ, Dynamic EQ and others) works.

I will play with setting up zones as per your suggestion and see if that works for me.
Perhaps something as in my screen shot?

edit: I found it to be a more coherent sound if everything is set at the same level, except the center channel as per my screen shot.
Perhaps a little less -dB for the center will boost that channel.


Question, have you tried eq the center channel to clear up dialogue?
(I did an attempt to boost 200hz with a bandwidth Q of 1)
https://producerhive.com/music-production-recording-tips/how-to-use-a-vocal-eq-chart/