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[andrewberg]

MC 25 must have changed something in the way file lists are served to DLNA devices (only if sorted randomly; lists display correctly sorted by existing criteria, genre, rating, year, name etc.).

In detail: My TV presents DLNA file lists by pages (of 16 items each) which can be browsed, selected and played by the TV's remote keys. MC 24 would always serve a full list of files, also in random sorting, so I could browse back/forth and still see the same files on each page as before.

MC 25 seems to renew random lists with every new page, so I can't go back to play a file seen on a previous page. (And to make it worse, if I choose to play a file on page 1, a completely different one is being played; but this doesn't happen on subsequent pages...)

I have seen this happen only in MC 25, and can only guess what's wrong, but my description above seems the most logical... I like to watch movies by picking from random sorted lists, so this feature is very important to me. Please make it work again!

[JimH]

Please try AndrewFG's analyzer.

[andrewberg]

Please try AndrewFG's analyzer.

Thanks, but where do I get that, and what does it do? (A forum search for 'AndrewFG analyzer' returns none but this page...)

[JimH]

Search for him in Members.  Then see his signature.  Or use a Google search.

[Awesome Donkey]

Here's his website for his Whitebear Digital Media Renderer Analyser: http://www.whitebear.ch/dmra

[andrewberg]

Thank you so far, but this tool doesn't help... remember, I have no problems playing any file type, just in random sorting of lists served over DLNA...
Besides, MC 25's media server & DLNA settings are identical to those I have in MC 24 (in fact, all imported from there alogside the complete library & settings)...

I still believe it has to do with one of the changes made to the DLNA 'protocol' in MC 25... there must be one switch somewhere that makes MC create a new file list whenever I browse a page back- or forward...
So maybe it helps to explain in more detail -- I usually set up movie lists for DLNA viewing as follows:

E.g., my category 'Movie' shows a sub-category 'Movie Genres', and in 'File display rules' is filtered by 'rating of 3 stars or higher', 'not played for 1 year', and under 'Modify results' I select 'Random'.
It is worth noting here that when the option 'Display All as a Choice' is enabled, random sorting will present complete (i.e. back/fwd browse-able) lists for any category on my DLNA TV; but when I select 'All Movie Genres' the list is served only for one page at a time -- noticeable in that next/prev. pages never display the same list of files as before, whereas some items repeat randomly as per my search expressions -- neither of which is user-friendly for me...

I know this is a tricky issue, and have posted it in similar questions on the forium before to no success... Maybe one of you admins might forward it to the developing DLNA expert, until it eventually drops a coin... ;-)

[JimH]

Please try AndrewFG's program and its recommended settings.

[andrewberg]

I have made a screenshot of Whitebear's analysis result... First of all, it suggests me to set 'DLNA' to 'Off' -- but I think that would disable the media server entirely, so how is that going to help?

I may try some of them but don't believe it gets to the core of the problem... (if it can be called such ;-)

[andrewberg]

...suggests me to set 'DLNA' to 'Off' -- but I think that would disable the media server entirely...?

OK, now have tried all settings recommended by Whitebear (an apology, 'DLNA Off' will not disable the media server, no idea what it does) -- but random sorting is still not working as desired...

So I re-enabled the options 'Filter internat. characters' (when off produces odd results for German descriptions), and 'DLNA' (to make MC present files with thumbnails, when off it only shows a 'film frame' icon). No success, random sorting a mess as before...

Not sure what the options 'Use flat / full URLs' are for, but they seem contradictive (?)... Anyway, assuming 'full URLs' to produce more accurate results, tested this option (with 'flat URLs' off) -- followed by the same result for random lists as before...

And let me repeat, the settings under 'Media Server > Advanced' were the same in both MC 25 and 24, but in 24 everything worked as desired...

[AndrewFG]

I think the OP is referring to the ContentDirectory::Browse function, and my DMRA has nothing to do or say about MC’s CD::Browse capability...

As far as I understand it, he is saying the MC’s CD::Browse no longer works like it used to. Apparently in the past, when browsing random playlists, successive browse requests would result in correctly ordered successive pages of tracks being displayed, whereas now the successive browse requests result in reordering of the randomised contents between pages. — Or something like that..

As mentioned, I cannot offer any advice on this. Except to not waste time on any of MC’s server settings, which I am pretty sure have nothing to do with, and no impact on, this issue.

[andrewberg]

... in the past, when browsing random playlists, successive browse requests would result in correctly ordered successive pages of tracks being displayed, whereas now the successive browse requests result in reordering of the randomised contents between pages. — Or something like that..

Thanks Andrew, you hit the nail on the head! (And in more expert wording than my amateurish description...;-)
I also confirm that none of MC's advanced DLNA server setting have any effect on this particular issue...

Having paid for MC 25 however, I will stick with it for the time being (mind you, browsing random lists is possible, you just have to decide more quickly for a file to play as it's gone when you revisit the page... ;-)

May this topic eventually find its way to the developer in charge's ear! Thanks again!

[RoderickGI]

I suspect that this is the change causing the change in behaviour:

25.0.12 (3/18/2019)
5. Fixed: DLNA views and MCWS (for JRemote, etc) could return stale file information instead of properly updating the file list on demand.


Although this one may also have an impact if you have lots of movies and page through many. But if the DLNA View parameters are refreshed after each page Up/Down, then probably not.

25.0.10 (2/25/2019)
6. Fixed: DLNA: When a BrowseDirectChildren or Search request is received for our DLNA server, limit the response to groups of 1000 at a time. Previous builds had no limit resulting in a crash if the number of entries exceeded about 30,000. This was unusual for a Browse, more likely for a Search.


I was going to suggest that you try an earlier version of MC, 25.0.11 or 25.0.9, but those are only available to the Beta Team, and are a bit dodgy.

So I guess you will have to wait for a comment on the above changes with respect to your issue.

[bob]

Unless there are more that 1000 items being browsed the 25.0.10 change would have no effect, so the first question to answer is that.

Next, I think that the change in 25.0.12 might affect this and it would be easy to test by running 25.0.10 then 25.0.12 to see if the change happened then, of course make a backup of your library first!!

http://files.jriver.com/mediacenter/test/MediaCenter250010.exe
http://files.jriver.com/mediacenter/test/MediaCenter250010-x64.exe

http://files.jriver.com/mediacenter/test/MediaCenter250012.exe
http://files.jriver.com/mediacenter/test/MediaCenter250012-x64.exe

[andrewberg]

Fixed: DLNA views and MCWS (for JRemote, etc) could return stale file information instead of properly updating the file list on demand.

Exactly, that's the change I was referring to! (Did read, but not understand, now it becomes clear) File lists are now being updated too often...

Still, assuming that MC will always compile & serve a complete lists (based on my views), why do random lists get updated? Maybe the server misses information to 'sort by'...

[RoderickGI]

First, test with the two versions Bob provided links to, to confirm that change is the problem. You can install them over the top of your existing MC25 with no side effects, and after testing return to the latest version.

If that is the issue, maybe something can be done about it. I have no idea about that.

[AndrewFG]

Still, assuming that MC will always compile & serve a complete lists (based on my views), why do random lists get updated? Maybe the server misses information to 'sort by'...

I am assuming that in the prior version a big random list was created once, and then served page by page, whereas in the newer version it creates a small random list for each page served. But personally I can’t imagine why that would concern you, since random is random. Or? (I suppose if you did page down followed by page up, you would expect to see the same tracks..)

[andrewberg]

(...) the change in 25.0.12 might affect this and it would be easy to test by running 25.0.10 then 25.0.12 to see if the change happened then, of course make a backup of your library first!!

I will give those build versions a try, then get back to report... please bear with me awhile... ;-)

(I suppose if you did page down followed by page up, you would expect to see the same tracks..)

Exactly -- and what makes it annoying is that some files are 'randomly repeated' in the process, while others never show up, so I never get a complete list of files matching my search set up for DLNA to choose from (as if searching some item on Amazon, and each page shows a wild mix of new items with some already seen... nagging)...

I have a sizeable film collection (3k+), and need reliable ways to organize, search & watch them.

[andrewberg]

... the 25.0.10 change would have no effect...
... the change in 25.0.12 might affect this and it would be easy to test by running 25.0.10 then 25.0.12 to see if the change happened...

Hello, here are my testing results: Version 25.0.10 has NO effect on this, it will serve random lists in full displaying the same files per page when browsing! And since no other change was made to DLNA in between builds, it would be safe to say -- as we all guessed -- the change in version 25.0.12 is causing the problem...

25.0.12 (3/18/2019) --> 5. Fixed: DLNA views and MCWS (for JRemote, etc) could return stale file information instead of properly updating the file list on demand.

So 'updating on demand' creates a new random list upon each page fwd/back request via DLNA, rather than send a complete list until the server is next started.

When examining this, please consider also that (see earlier post), even in versions 25.0.10 and before, when browsing a view category with 'Display All as a Choice' selected, random lists are also 'updated' this fashion in 'View All', while categories display the same, steady lists per session...

I will stick to version 25.0.10 for now, and wait for some strike of genius in a future build... ;-) Thanks in advance!

[AndrewFG]

I think that 99 times out of 100 it is fully correct that CDS:Browse() SHOULD be updated on every call; this is so that the browse(r) will always see the latest changes in the the library rather than some old cached version of the library. The 1 time out of 100 case is yours, where you actually want to see the old cached version of the random playlist created from the library. I am not sure if these two wishes can be mutually reconciled..

[andrewberg]

... so that the browse(r) will always see the latest changes in the the library rather than some old cached version...

I dont' see how 'old' that can possibly get during one server session...? I don't usually update my library, add new files etc while browsing my DLNA device to pick files to play (not to confuse with playlists created by you, not the server, while both are based on the same search settings ;-),... DLNA views can be set up to deliver content for any length of time -- depending on your library -- until you quit the server session. Next time you begin with with a fresh list to choose from (which is why I find random lists so interesting... ;-)

The scenario you decribe sounds to me like somebody editing your library at the backend while you're listening/watching at the other... Or did I get you wrong?

[andrewberg]

... CDS:Browse() SHOULD be updated on every call ...

No, a call for a list should return exactly that list, on as many pages as needed. The 'Call' command should be sent to the server only when you first open that list (containing the files matching your search), not when you move a page up/down.

[AndrewFG]

The scenario you decribe sounds to me like somebody editing your library at the backend while you're listening/watching at the other... Or did I get you wrong?

Yes, that is indeed the case.

The UPNP ContentDirectory specification has a mechanism for advertising a master “freshness” code for the library. A browsing application must check this code from time to time, and if the code is unchanged, it can satisfy page requests from its own local cache, but if the code has changed then it is advised to ditch the cache and load the page(s) again.

Any change to any item in the library will change the master freshness code. So for example changing the “last played” tag on a single track will change it. — Thus the MC library is almost constantly in a “non fresh” state..

The UPNP specification also has a more fine structured freshness coding scheme that applies to individual branches of the browsing tree. I suppose that JRiver could look into adding more granularity to that code. However if your browsing application is only looking at the master freshness code, then JRiver adding granularity at a lower level won’t help you much..

[andrewberg]

'Last played' and 'Number of Plays' are good examples: Unlike in local playback, where MC will fill these tags only after the file has almost played down, in DLNA mode it refreshes the very second a file is first served (and worse, it increments upon every Pause/Resume of playback...;-) !!

This behaviour may be owed to some UPNP specs, but it makes no sense to end users... (I pointed this out to JR before, but they went the opposite direction... ;-)(

The best would be to add an option to media network settings for users to choose at which levels, intervals etc file tags (and thus, lists) are refreshed on network devices.