Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[simplextech]

MC sees Sonus speakers, but it sees them individually. That means Sonus's ability to sync to multiple speakers is not available.  You can play to all of them - they just do not sync as nicely as Sonus does directly.

You can create your own library within Sonus just by pointing the  Sonus app to the folders on your PC. It will scan the folders and create a library of the files it finds there.  The files just need to be tagged appropriately.

I do the latter because of the sync issues.

Yes MC can see the Sonos speakers.  The Sonos Controller is NOT seeing JRiver MC's DLNA server.  This is the issue.   From JRiver I can see and play to the speakers just fine.  That's the a problem.  I can't from the Sonos Controller see the JRiver MC to select music to play.  Why is this a problem?  Because there are other people that use the mobile Sonos Controller app and I have other systems throughout that use the same thing and they need to see the music shared by JRiver so that a person can choose what to listen to and so it can be integrated throughout the rest of the automated environment. 

The Sonos Controller can see the DLNA server from several other music players that I've tried so I'm trying to figure out what the issue is with JRiver.

[dtc]

Yes MC can see the Sonos speakers.  The Sonos Controller is NOT seeing JRiver MC's DLNA server.  This is the issue.   From JRiver I can see and play to the speakers just fine.  That's the a problem.  I can't from the Sonos Controller see the JRiver MC to select music to play.  Why is this a problem?  Because there are other people that use the mobile Sonos Controller app and I have other systems throughout that use the same thing and they need to see the music shared by JRiver so that a person can choose what to listen to and so it can be integrated throughout the rest of the automated environment. 

The Sonos Controller can see the DLNA server from several other music players that I've tried so I'm trying to figure out what the issue is with JRiver.

If you want to play the MC music through the mobile Sonus app, you can set up My Library within Sonus to follow the folders that contain the MC music.  You can then play that music from Sonus. It is not through DLNA, but it works fine for me.

[blgentry]

MC sees Sonus speakers, but it sees them individually. That means Sonus's ability to sync to multiple speakers is not available.  You can play to all of them - they just do not sync as nicely as Sonus does directly.

I don't have Sonos and have barely used one and never with MC...

But I thought I had read here that you can tell Sonos, using the Sonos app, to link (for example) speakers A, B, and C, so that anything played to A is played to B and C also.  Then use MC to play *only* to A.  Sonos then syncs the audio for A, B, and C.

It's been several years since I read that here on Interact, but I'm pretty sure that's what someone said.

Brian.

[blgentry]

The Sonos Controller can see the DLNA server from several other music players that I've tried so I'm trying to figure out what the issue is with JRiver.

Are those servers on the same PC as MC?  I ask because I wonder about two things:

1.  I think DLNA is a broadcast protocol, so if the JRiver computer is not in the same network broadcast domain as the Sonos speakers, they can't find each other via DLNA.  But this is probably NOT it, since you say MC can see Sonos, but Sonos can't see MC.
2.  If there's a firewall running on the MC computer, then it is probably blocking the DLNA sharing being done by MC.  Or if other servers (like Media Monkey) are running on the same computer at the same time, they might be "stealing" the DLNA server port, which does not let MC serve via DLNA.

These are guesses.  It might also simply be an incompatibility between the Sonos and MC implementations of DLNA.  DLNA is the standard that's not very standard unfortunately.

Brian.

[simplextech]

Are those severs on the same PC as MC?  I ask because I wonder about two things:

1.  I think DLNA is a broadcast protocol, so if the JRiver computer is not in the same network broadcast domain as the Sonos speakers, they can't find each other via DLNA.  But this is probably NOT it, since you say MC can see Sonos, but Sonos can't see MC.
2.  If there's a firewall running on the MC computer, then it is probably blocking the DLNA sharing being done by MC.  Or if other servers (like Media Monkey) are running on the same computer at the same time, they might be "stealing" the DLNA server port, which does not let MC serve via DLNA.

These are guesses.  It might also simply be an incompatibility between the Sonos and MC implementations of DLNA.  DLNA is the standard that's not very standard unfortunately.

Brian.

Everything is running on the same PC (Windows).  JRiver MC and Sonos Controller on the same PC.  Same with MediaMonkey and Kodi.  Everything on the test test box.  I launch MM and Sonos Controller sees it.  Same with Kodi.  Not so with JRiver.  I've gone through the wiki, the settings and added/changed reset the MC DLNA setup with no improvements.  To your point of port conflicts.  I'm not running everything at the same time as that for obvious reasons would not work. 

At some point a lot (most) will be moved to other systems and containers.  However for base functional eval I'm doing it all on the same box to not have any external issues involved.  This is bare metal not a VM

[JimH]

Is Media Network running?

A firewall could block access.  SSDP also has to be open on port 1900.

[AndrewFG]

MC has THREE settings under Media Network; something like a) allow MC library to be visible to other network players, b) allow MC to push music to other players, and c) allow other servers to push music to MC. => You have to enable ALL of those three settings.

Also..

- MC must be running (autostart with Windows start)
- The PC must be on the same subnet as all other devices
- Your firewall and AV software must be configured to allow MC
- Your router must be configured to route SSDP / UDP multi- and mono- casts across the subnet (aka the router needs to have UPNP enabled)

[simplextech]

Is Media Network running?

A firewall could block access.  SSDP also has to be open on port 1900.

Yes Media Network (was running during testing).  Sonos Controller is running on the same PC and Windows Firewall, Defender, and all other nonsense is all disabled.

The DLNA doesn't need to broadcast to the speaker directly but the Sonos Controller needs to hear the broadcast and load the DLNA information.  Then the Sonos Controller can push the URI to the speaker for playback.  I can from MC send to/play to individual speakers just fine.  It's just really odd that the DLNA is not showing up in the Sonos Controller for access to the media.

Really this comes down to a stupid issue with Plex and Sonos integration where the Sonos Controller has to use Internet access to get Plex server info and then Sonos Controller can play the Plex library to local speakers.  Problem is I'm double NAT'ed with LTE modems so Plex internet sharing doesn't work well and I hate the internet dependency anyways.  In the end this is a Plex issue so I'm looking to replace Plex.  I'm not happy with their direction and the internet dependency that have created.

My family use Netflix, Hulu, Amazon for the majority of general TV watching but I want/need good local ability to play audio and Movies and having family videos and pictures is added bonus.  I have Roku boxes, Roku TV's and FireTV boxes which can be used for the streaming just train them to use the Harmony remote or how to switch source inputs.  Not a huge issue.  But I want a single solution for local audio/dvd/BD playback to replace Plex and I'm hoping JRiver can fill that segment. 

The problem is... I'm a geek for a living so of course I'm looking at everything available and I can code and fill in minor gaps but I don't want to spend all of my time coding for a media center when I do that for Home Automation systems already

Also need a newer Theater view theme   Suggestions?

[AndrewFG]

^
See my prior post (which probably crossed worth yours).

And BTW “double NAT” probably won’t work. See my comment about all devices being on the same subnet. Practically this means that all devices get their IP addresses via DHCP from one single router. Trying to route UPNP across several routers and several subnets, is more than likely not going to work.

PS this is not an MC issue. It is a problem with your LAN configuration.

[simplextech]

^
See my prior post (which probably crossed worth yours).

I saw it.  I checked all of those.  They are all set.  I've also gone through adding the different preset DLNA server profiles and none work either.

[AndrewFG]

Are all your devices on the same subnet?

PPS you claimed earlier that “all firewalls etc. are disabled”; that claim is most likely not true as your router probably has a state full firewall (which in essence allows inside to talk to outside, but prevents outside from talking to inside). If you have “double NAT” then you have more than one router, and therefore more than one state full firewall. This is not going to work.

You need (as I said before) a flat network with all devices connected to the same router..

[AndrewFG]

PS if you want more help, please post your exact network structure first.

[dtc]

I don't have Sonos and have barely used one and never with MC...

But I thought I had read here that you can tell Sonos, using the Sonos app, to link (for example) speakers A, B, and C, so that anything played to A is played to B and C also.  Then use MC to play *only* to A.  Sonos then syncs the audio for A, B, and C.

It's been several years since I read that here on Interact, but I'm pretty sure that's what someone said.

Brian.

MC can play to each speaker, but that does not engage the Sonos software that syncs all the speakers. If MC plays to "A", then it only plays to "A".  I cannot check it out currently (wrong house) but I am pretty sure that syncing does not work when MC plays to a Sonos speaker. You need to play from the Sonus app to have the speakers all linked and be in sync. 

You can link all the speakers into one zone in MC, but still they are not synced.  That is the standard problem with syncing DLNA devices in MC.

That's why I went to setting up a library within the Sonos app and controlling everything from the Sonos app.  I only do it for audio. I have no idea if the Sonos app will scan folders for video files.

[simplextech]

Are all your devices on the same subnet?

PPS you claimed earlier that “all firewalls etc. are disabled”; that claim is most likely not true as your router probably has a state full firewall (which in essence allows inside to talk to outside, but prevents outside from talking to inside). If you have “double NAT” then you have more than one router, and therefore more than one state full firewall. This is not going to work.

You need (as I said before) a flat network with all devices connected to the same router..

The network is a flat subnet with Sonos Controller AND J River MC on the same computer.  It's not a FW issue and I'm not a newbie non-technical person.  If it were network related or FW then none of the other DLNA servers I've been testing would work either. 

[simplextech]

You need (as I said before) a flat network with all devices connected to the same router..

Who connects their devices to their router?  Oh you must assume I have a basic home network with cable/dsl provider and using their cheap router + switch combo.

[simplextech]

MC can play to each speaker, but that does not engage the Sonus software that syncs all the speakers. If MC plays to "A", then it only plays to "A".  I cannot check it out currently (wrong house) but I am pretty sure that syncing does not work when MC plays to a Sonus speaker. You need to play from the Sonus app to have the speakers all linked and be in sync. 

You can link all the speakers into one zone in MC, but still they are not synced.  That is the standard problem with syncing DLNA devices in MC.

That's why I went to setting up a library within the Sonus app and controlling everything from the Sonus app.  I only do it for audio. I have no idea if the Sonus app will scan folders for video files.

Bingo correct.  To pair up and be in sync that is done through the Sonos Controller (app).  Sonos has a limit though on the number of songs/albums/playlists that it can accept and the app is not very good anyways.  So it's much easier to use something else (Plex, MediaMonkey, etc) to build playlists and manage music and then present it to the Sonos Controller via DLNA.  Then You can group your speakers in Sonos and play your playlist from the DLNA source.  Except the JRiver DLNA is not visible/presenting to Sonos for some reason.  There have been other posts on this issue as well with no resolution either.

[dtc]

Bingo correct.  To pair up and be in sync that is done through the Sonos Controller (app).  Sonos has a limit though on the number of songs/albums/playlists that it can accept and the app is not very good anyways.  So it's much easier to use something else (Plex, MediaMonkey, etc) to build playlists and manage music and then present it to the Sonos Controller via DLNA.  Then You can group your speakers in Sonos and play your playlist from the DLNA source.  Except the J River DLNA is not visible/presenting to Sonos for some reason.  There have been other posts on this issue as well with no resolution either.

Yes, I never saw JRiver DLNA in Sonos, so I went to the library approach. Direct DLNA access would bypass that step.  Hope you figure it out.

[simplextech]

Yes, I never saw J River DLNA in Sonus, so I went to the library approach. Direct DLNA access would bypass that step.  Hope you figure it out.

I hope this can be worked out.  I've verified DLNA/uPNP MediaMonkey and Kodi on the same PC and they work perfectly.  Just JRiver DLNA not showing up to Sonos.

[dtc]

I hope this can be worked out.  I've verified DLNA/uPNP MediaMonkey and Kodi on the same PC and they work perfectly.  Just JRiver DLNA not showing up to Sonos.

I have my Sonos setup at my Florida home. I will be there this weekend and see if I can figure anything out.  It is a very vanilla network.

[simplextech]

Just for giggles I now have JRiver running on my HTPC AND on my test PC both with DLNA running.  They can SEE each other!  Sonos can't see them.

[RoderickGI]

I'm not a Sonos user, so my information is very third hand, and a bit hazy.

But Brian answered your primary question way back here:

* Sonos support in MC has been reported to be a little unusual, as Sonos apparently does not implement the DNLA standard very well.

In fact, Sonos is not DLNA compliant, so it can't see a standard DLNA server. I believe it actually uses a variant networking protocol, called something like "Open Home Network" or similar. Unfortunately, I can't find a reference to it, and Sonos support online barely talks about its UPnP and DLNA support... because it isn't standard. It finds device via IP Address discovery or something. I actually think it uses some of the UPnP standard. Not sure.

MC uses a standard DLNA server, while I believe the other Apps you have successfully tried have added extensions to allow Sonos to see their servers. There is the "DLNAExtra" setting in MC's Advanced DLNA settings, but I don't think that does what you need. Try it out, if you haven't already.

As a fellow geek, you might be able to find the information I couldn't find.

Anyway, you might find the BubbleUPnP Server can be used to enable visibility of a MC Server to Sonos Controllers. i.e. In the form:

JRiver MC Server > BubbleUPnP Server > Sonos Controller(s) > {Sonos Groups} > Sonos devices.

Sonos Device Groups being optional, hence the {} notation. I believe the BubbleUPnP Server can be set up to operate transparently to the user, in this configuration.

So that isn't an answer, but might give you a path to check out. You may also like to ask Sonos why their Controllers can't see the MC Server.

PS: https://en.community.sonos.com/setting-up-sonos-228990/sonos-1-upnp-name-6817406

[dtc]

Sonos does seem to be an incomplete DLNA implementation, but other Media Servers seem to work with it, which points to the possibility that it may be a MC issue.  Or, at least, the competitors have figured out how to make it work.  Given the prevalence of Sonos, this would be a nice thing to get working with MC.

I went through the standard DLNA settings again and still nothing visible from Sonos Controller from JRiver but I enabled DLNA from Kodi without any configuring and there is the Kodi listing in the Sonos Controller and I can see everything.  As I can see my media from Sonos Controller from MediaMonkey, Kodi, miniDLNA and every other DLNA server I've tried this leads to it being a JRiver MC issue. 

[RoderickGI]

If I am remembering correctly there was a discussion about the "Open Home Network" or whatever it is called, and the response was that it wouldn't be supported.

Maybe that could change.

[simplextech]

I'm not a Sonos user, so my information is very third hand, and a bit hazy.

But Brian answered your primary question way back here:
In fact, Sonos is not DLNA compliant, so it can't see a standard DLNA server. I believe it actually uses a variant networking protocol, called something like "Open Home Network" or similar. Unfortunately, I can't find a reference to it, and Sonos support online barely talks about its UPnP and DLNA support... because it isn't standard. It finds device via IP Address discovery or something. I actually think it uses some of the UPnP standard. Not sure.

MC uses a standard DLNA server, while I believe the other Apps you have successfully tried have added extensions to allow Sonos to see their servers. There is the "DLNAExtra" setting in MC's Advanced DLNA settings, but I don't think that does what you need. Try it out, if you haven't already.

As a fellow geek, you might be able to find the information I couldn't find.

Anyway, you might find the BubbleUPnP Server can be used to enable visibility of a MC Server to Sonos Controllers. i.e. In the form:

JRiver MC Server > BubbleUPnP Server > Sonos Controller(s) > {Sonos Groups} > Sonos devices.

Sonos Device Groups being optional, hence the {} notation. I believe the BubbleUPnP Server can be set up to operate transparently to the user, in this configuration.

So that isn't an answer, but might give you a path to check out. You may also like to ask Sonos why their Controllers can't see the MC Server.

PS: https://en.community.sonos.com/setting-up-sonos-228990/sonos-1-upnp-name-6817406

Pardon the full quote but it's worth it.  Thank you for the information and pointing out what I overlooked in the other reply. 

Yes Sonos uses an "odd" implementation and uses SSDP to locate devices.  I think at this point I'll drop trying to get MC to work with Sonos and I'll take a look at BubbleUPnP or look further into alternatives.  It's just odd that MC being a premier media manager doesn't work with one of the most popular speakers out there.

[JimH]

dtc,
Sonus?  Is it a name for Sonos in a different country?

[JimH]

... J River MC

We switched from "JRiver" to "JRiver" a few years ago because it works better with searches.

[AndrewFG]

Who connects their devices to their router?  Oh you must assume I have a basic home network with cable/dsl provider and using their cheap router + switch combo.

Haha.

So apparently Sonos is not UPNP compliant then. You might need to try these tools to see what’s going on. Try Device Spy, and or the Media tool in particular. And see if you can get the device descriptor and service descriptor xml files from the Sonos unit.

https://www.meshcommander.com/upnptools

[dtc]

Jim - Nope, just carelessness in my old age. Sort of like the distinction between "JRiver" and "JRiver".

Actually, there is a company Sanus that makes speaker stands. I knew about them long before Sonos, and the "us" just stuck with me.

[blgentry]

To the OP:

What positive things is MC doing for you at the moment?  What I mean is, there seem to be quite a number of checklist items for you that MC does not fulfill.  So I'm wondering if there are some really big positives that are keeping you interested and working on this.

Thanks,

Brian.

[simplextech]

To the OP:

What positive things is MC doing for you at the moment?  What I mean is, there seem to be quite a number of checklist items for you that MC does not fulfill.  So I'm wondering if there are some really big positives that are keeping you interested and working on this.

Thanks,

Brian.

I'm in the evaluation stage at the moment planning a move away from Plex.  Currently I'm no longer working on this and I have moved my attention to seeing how well Kodi will fit.  So far Kodi has been straight forward and easy to setup and works with Sonos just like everything else I've tried.  Media management is ok but there are other compatible tools that work very well and integrate with Kodi.

MC has all of the nice audiophile features and capabilities which is it's heritage.  However I'm not looking for a PC media manager but a HTPC frontend with hopeful intentions of augmenting and possible replacement of a Roku box.

[blgentry]

I see.  Best of luck to you.

I do not use MC for video any more.  But I use it a good bit to help organize video files, especially renaming them.  This is a bonus free thing for me since I already own MC and use it a good bit for audio.  I'm not sure if MC will fit into your intended model, but if it does, we're here to help guide you along.

Take care,

Brian.