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[Migdalin]

I'm using media network to connect JRiver to my receiver via wifi.  The problem is, any wobble in the wifi connection causes JRiver to forget about the receiver.  Usually, I notice this because music playback has stopped.  By then, the receiver is listed again, but the play list is empty and I have to rebuild it.  The same is true every time I start up JRiver.  Every time it spots the receiver, it treats it as a new device.

We need a way to permanently add a receiver, so that JRiver doesn't forget about it, even if the receiver is turned off.  This would reduce the pain, though it would also be nice if JRiver didn't give up so easily when streaming to the receiver.

[AndrewFG]

I have three suggestions..

1) In your router, make sure that both the receiver, and the pc where MC is running, have a “reserved” IP address. This means that whenever either of those devices is restarted, they will always come back with the same address as before.

2) Make sure that your firewall or av software is NOT blocking either the receiver, the PC, MC, or anything relating to UDP multicast, or broadcast, or SSDP. See below..

3) Check if your router or Wifi access Point has any settings relating to UDP multicast, or broadcast, or SSDP; if so then enable those things. This may help speed up the device discovery process.

4) Try to connect the receiver and/or the pc to the router via Ethernet cable (ideally both). When you are streaming from the pc to the receiver, the Wifi has to actually handle two data streams (the incoming from the Pc, and the outgoing to the receiver) so the two may clash and cause dropouts. Hardwiring one or other of the two will reduce clashes and thus reduce dropouts.

[blgentry]

I've often felt that MC's way of talking to DLNA renderers (things that play music) is not permanent enough.  You can select what you see any time you want.  But you can't define what you want.  Or save what you want.  Or in any way guarantee that MC will try to talk to that device every single time you open MC.

In short, being able to define (or choose) a DLNA source in a way more similar to how Audio devices are selected (in Options) would be better.  It would be more permanent.  I guess I agree with the original poster.


Brian.

[RoderickGI]

MC doesn't forget DLNA Renderers. It just only show those DLNA Renderers that it can see on the network at any time. For example, if you associate a DLNA Server with a DLNA Renderer, then shut down the DLNA Renderer so that it disappears from MC, then turn it back on so that it reappears, the association is still in place. So, MC is remembering Renderers it has seen before and retaining settings. In fact, the opposite is often true; that MC is still showing a Dynamic Zone (DLNA Renderer) when it has been unavailable for some time.

This is the real issue here. Well, in addition to the poor Wi-Fi network the OP has.

By then, the receiver is listed again, but the play list is empty and I have to rebuild it.  The same is true every time I start up JRiver.  Every time it spots the receiver, it treats it as a new device.

I tested with my Workstation MC Server playing to BubbleUPnP on my Android phone, by playing to the phone, killing BubbleUPnP, and then restarting BubbleUPnP, to simulate the loss of network to a DLNA Renderer.

In fact, when I restarted BubbleUPnP initially, MC had still retained the full Playing Now contents that I was playing to before. It was only a short time after I started playback, maybe 30 seconds, that Playing Now was cleared all but for the currently playing track. Refreshing the view didn't clear Playing Now before that time elapsed.

I tried a couple of settings to see if I could stop that happening, such as including the Session ID on the DLNA Server, and trying with "Clear Playing Now on exit" turned off and on. They didn't fix the issue and I couldn't think of other settings to try.


I think MC should remember Playing Now contents for Dynamic Zones such as a DLNA Renderer, just as it does for other Zones it plays to. To me, this is either a bug to a functional shortfall. However, retaining the Playing Now contents for a Dynamic Zone (DLNA Renderer) indefinitely doesn't seem like a good idea either, as that Zone may never be seen again. So there is good reason for MC to forget the Playing Now contents. It probably just shouldn't happen for 10 or 30 minutes, perhaps.


Also Migdalin, do what AndrewFG has suggested. Or just fix your wireless network. It should be far more reliable than what you are saying.

Finally, you probably don't have to rebuild the play list. Just look under the "Recent Playing Now's" Playlist Group. In there you will find copies of Recent Playing Now lists. If the one you want is in there, and usually it will be, just add it back to Playing Now.

[blgentry]

MC doesn't forget DLNA Renderers. It just only show those DLNA Renderers that it can see on the network at any time. For example, if you associate a DLNA Server with a DLNA Renderer, then shut down the DLNA Renderer so that it disappears from MC, then turn it back on so that it reappears, the association is still in place. So, MC is remembering Renderers it has seen before and retaining settings. In fact, the opposite is often true; that MC is still showing a Dynamic Zone (DLNA Renderer) when it has been unavailable for some time.

All of that is probably completely accurate.

But it doesn't change the fact that the way you select and use a DLNA device is completely divorced from how you play audio to direct attached devices. 

DLNA Renderer Differences:

* Selected in a totally different place.
* Don't always show up immediately.
* No way to persistently select one so it *always* appears, even if it's turned off.  Wouldn't you expect your turned off DNLA device to still show up in your configuration?  For example, file shares don't disappear completely when you turn off the file server.  They persist and work again when the server comes back.
* Do not use the regular DSP Studio.  They have their own "hidden" set.
* Have options that are set in multiple places.  Totally different than regular audio devices.

Finally, in another thread we have a report from someone that he's playing audio to a local device and isn't sure why.  Perhaps MC lost it's connection to the DLNA device and is now playing to the default audio device.  This should never happen.  If your DLNA device is offline, you should get an error message that says something like "I can't find the DLNA renderer at (identifying information).  Please check the number and dial again."  (Little bit of humor there)

I hope my point is clear:  DLNA devices would be easier to understand and more friendly if they were configured like direct attached audio devices. 

Brian.

[JimH]

* Don't always show up immediately.

They show up when they are available, not before.

* No way to persistently select one so it *always* appears, even if it's turned off.  Wouldn't you expect your turned off DNLA device to still show up in your configuration? 

That would be very bad.  If it isn't available, it's not shown and shouldn't be.

If you're going to offer advice on UPnP / DLNA, it would be nice if you would use it routinely.

[blgentry]

That's not very fair Jim.  I've spent quite a number of hours attempting to use DLNA devices with MC.  I know the basics.

I thought I was making suggestions in a pretty neutral manner.  If my tone was adversarial, please let me know because that's not how I tried to word my suggestions.

My intention with the posts here is not criticism.  My intention is to offer suggestions which would give the MC user a more consistent and easier experience.  If you disagree with my suggestions, that's fine.  But your tone makes it seem like you think I'm not trying to be helpful.

You say it would be bad to have a DLNA renderer show up if it's off.   I'm trying to say that if I specifically configure MC to use a renderer as my default, I would like for that CONFIGURATION to show up all the time.  If MC can't *find* the renderer, it should say so, or visually indicate that.

But I feel like I'm being misunderstood here, so I think I'll just stop.

Brian.

[JimH]

I thought you've said you don't use DLNA.

[blgentry]

I do not use DLNA on a regular basis.  In the past I tried to use it with a WD Live and it worked poorly.  I also spent many many hours attempting to get MC on Mac to sync audio between a locally attached audio device and MC running on a Pi.

I've also helped friends with their systems (using MC) to talk to DLNA renderers.  I've used MC on Mac to talk to a few other DLNA renderers around my house from time to time.

I do not use it persistently because it's not consistent enough for me.  A big part of that is just DLNA.  Another part of it is the way that MC presents and uses DLNA devices.

So it's somewhat fair to say "Brian does not use DLNA".  It's also pretty fair to say that "Brian has tried to use DLNA in the past and spent hours doing so."

Brian.

[RoderickGI]

As always, you are correct Brian. My comments and suggestions for improvements below.

* Selected in a totally different place.

Actually Dynamic Zones, including DLNA Renderers, are selected in the same places as all other Zones; under Playing Now and in "Options > Audio > Zone to configure". But of course they only appear if available, so you can't select then when unavailable, and there is actually no configuration for DLNA Renderers, anywhere. More discussion below.

* Don't always show up immediately.

Well, that is entirely dependent on the OS and network. The "Navigation Pane > Services & Plug-ins > Media Network" view shows all the work MC does to find Dynamic Zones. It takes a while.

Maybe MC could show all previously seen Dynamic Zones. Then a user could use the "Playing Now > {right-click on any Zone} > Show / Hide Zone" menus to just hide or show Dynamic Zones. Unless they have been deleted with the "Playing Now > {right-click} > Delete Dynamic Zones" function. Then if a user wanted to add back a deleted Dynamic Zone, they could just make it available by running "Playing Now > {right-click} > Refresh Dynamic Entries", which should, I believe, reshow deleted Dynamic Zones now, but I don't think it does. Maybe there needs to be a new function here, to "Undelete" Dynamic and maybe even Local Zones, as MC does seem to keep a record of deleted Zones in the Registry.

A new option to "Show all previously seen Dynamic Zones" could be added, and if any Dynamic Zone was not available, just label it as such. i.e. For my Sony phone running BubbleUPnP, show a Zone record under Playing Now of "BubbleUPnP (G8141) (unavailable)". When it becomes available, show it as it does now "BubbleUPnP (G8141)".

The "Show all previously seen Dynamic Zones" setting should probably reside in the "Playing Now > {right-click}" menu, and when it has been selected, that option should change to "Show only available Dynamic Zones".

When an unavailable Dynamic Zone was visible, as above, it should be possible to right-click it and configure it, as you do with available Zones now.

The above changes would help with diagnosing some of my DLNA issues.

If the above was implemented, Dynamic Zones including DLNA Renderers would show up immediately.

Note: There may be technical reasons why this is not a good idea, such as DLNA Renderers changing IP Address may result in the one Renderer appearing multiple times, which could see a proliferation of Dynamic Zones. It would depend on whether a Renderer, for example, could be uniquely identified every time it becomes visible.

* No way to persistently select one so it *always* appears, even if it's turned off.  Wouldn't you expect your turned off DNLA device to still show up in your configuration?  For example, file shares don't disappear completely when you turn off the file server.  They persist and work again when the server comes back.

That is debatable, and has been a design decision at some time. Generally all players that play to a DLNA Renderers only show available Renderers. Just as only available DLNA Servers are shown. It makes sense in most situations, as say a phone running a Player may move around a lot, and hence find new DLNA Renderers to play to all the time.

But with the above changes, a user could select any Dynamic Zone. But that may cause issues for inexperienced users and a flood of "My music won't play" threads.

* Do not use the regular DSP Studio.  They have their own "hidden" set.

This one is a little bit more difficult.

For a start, MC doesn't ever configure a Dynamic Zone, including DLNA Renderers, except for the few connection parameters under "Playing Now > {right-click on any Dynamic Zone} > Associate with DLNA Server". Even the parameters under "Playing Now > {right-click on any Dynamic Zone} > DLNA Controller Options" are configuring the DLNA Controller, and not the DLNA Renderer. MC asks the Renderer what it can do, and then plays to it according to its capabilities and the MC DLNA Server settings.

So, what this comment is about is really the configuration of the DLNA Server, and not the DLNA Renderer. Quite a different thing, and shouldn't be confused with configuring an audio Zone.

However, if a DLNA Renderer was visible, whether available or not if the above changes were made, then it would make sense when it is selected under "Options > Audio > Zone to configure" and the configuration message is shown, that clicking on that message would take a user to the Media Network section of Options, allowing them to configure the DLNA Server.

The specific setting you mention here Brian, the DSP Studio, is like a DSP Preset linked to the DLNA Server, and as such it makes sense to reside where it is, almost. I would support the Advanced section under "Add or configure DLNA servers > Audio" being collapsed so that the settings under the "Audio" section were now:
Audio>
    Mode:
    Audio Formats to convert:
    Output Format:
    DSP Studio settings for this DLNA Server...

Note the resequenced settings, with "Advanced" being removed. "Audio Formats to convert" only applies when the "Mode" is set to "Specified output format only when necessary", and is greyed out otherwise, so it makes sense to place it directly below the "Mode" setting and make it visible when that setting is changed, rather than hidden below the "Advanced" menu, to me. The renaming of the "DSP Studio" setting would clarify things for new and a lot of other users.

* Have options that are set in multiple places.  Totally different than regular audio devices.

Explained above.

Finally, in another thread we have a report from someone that he's playing audio to a local device and isn't sure why.  Perhaps MC lost it's connection to the DLNA device and is now playing to the default audio device.  This should never happen.  If your DLNA device is offline, you should get an error message that says something like "I can't find the DLNA renderer at (identifying information).  Please check the number and dial again."  (Little bit of humor there)

Was that this thread? https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,123186.0.html

If so, that is an unusual situation. New to me. But I found this change in JRiver for Android 25.0.121:
"2. Fixed: Panel - When playing a file the play command could get sent to multiple zones."

Maybe the same thing is happening when MC acts as a DLNA Controller in that situation.

If not that thread, please share.

I hope my point is clear:  DLNA devices would be easier to understand and more friendly if they were configured like direct attached audio devices. 

I think your point is clear, and DLNA setup could be more friendly. Hence my suggestions above. But it is how DLNA works rather than MC that makes it somewhat unfriendly. Or rather, often, how DLNA doesn't work.


So Jim, what do you think of the above suggestions? They probably won't result in more sales, but could remove some frustration for users, and potentially make how to use DLNA Renderers clearer.

[BigSpider]

If one my dlna renderers isn't shown in the list of available zones to play to it does at least remind me to go and switch it on. Please don't give me a thousand options to obviate the simple decision to switch on a device.

[mattlovell]

If a given renderer has been designated as "permanant" or "important", seems like it could still be listed but with a visual distinction that makes it clear that MC can't communicate with it.  A grayed-out / dimmed name, rather than the absence of a name, could serve as the reminder to go switch it on.

Would that work?

[AndrewFG]

If a given renderer has been designated as "permanant" or "important", seems like it could still be listed but with a visual distinction that makes it clear that MC can't communicate with it.  A grayed-out / dimmed name, rather than the absence of a name, could serve as the reminder to go switch it on.

Would that work?

Yes, that would work. (I had the same idea, but you were faster in posting it).

I would suggest the On/Off state (actually Present/Absent) could be indicated by an overlay icon, rather than just graying the text..

Note: The “memory” in MC would have to be based on the DLNA device’s UUID as determined from its UPNP device descriptor; otherwise if it was based on the Device Friendly Name or Device Model Name you might get odd behaviour if multiple renderers shared the same Model or Friendly names.

[AndrewFG]

^
It might need a right click menu command “hide this renderer” plus a global settings reset command “restore hidden renderers”.. (and/or “clear memorised renderers”)

[mattlovell]

It sounds good to me!  (Sounds similar to the show/hide zone functionality that seems to already be present.)

My setup is pretty stable.  I have one main renderer that I would always want shown.

[Migdalin]

I've had some luck from creating a zone, which i called Receiver, and linking that zone to the actual receiver.  When I start up JRiver, it takes 30 seconds to a minute for the actual Receiver to show up.  Once it does, the linked group shows up.

The actual Receiver only ever shows one song being active, but the Zone that I created will hold onto my playlist and also my current location inside it.  I can Play from the Zone, and the actual receiver outputs music.

The problem I have now is the one of cut-out.  The PC is connected via Ethernet to the router.  Unfortunately, the Receiver is in another room, with no easy way for me to get a cable to it.  I'll look into assigning a permanent IP address to the receiver....

Would I have better luck streaming to my Fire TV?  I'm able to stream movies from Amazon with no cut-out issues, and the Fire TV is plugged straight into the receiver.  (I've seen various tutorials about mirroring a PC to Fire TV, but I think they're talking about something different than what I'm trying to do.)