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[jrobbins]

Hello, all.  I typically use MC25 for external playback out of my home and Roon at home.  Homeaudiofidelity (https://www.homeaudiofidelity.com/english/plugin/) has developed a plug-in to reduce room resonances.  Because it is not a convolution filter, it can't be loaded into Roon.  However, it, along with convolution filters, load fine into MC25.

My desire therefore is to use Roon to control playback through MC25 over DLNA, as my DAC, a Bel Canto Streamer, only has ethernet for an input and not USB (and anyway, I have found that ethernet sounds better than a USB connection).

My setup:

Roon and MC25 are running on a Windows Server 2019 core PC with Audiophile Optimizer.  As noted above, I have a Bel Canto Streamer which is ethernet connected to both Roon and MC25.

The attached photos tell the story of what is going on in MC25 (as six photos are the limit per post, I will attach the photos over several consecutive posts on this topic):

1.  JRiver 1 shows the main JRiver page and the Bel Canto Streamer appears as Bel Streamer.

2.  JRiver 2 is what I see when I am selected on Bel Streamer and pick Tools/Options.  As those of you familiar, the Bel Canto Streamer must be controlled not through the Audio function but under Media Network.

3.  JRiver 3 of course shows the main Media Network page.

4.  JRiver 4 is what I see when I click on Add or Configure DLNA Servers. I changed the Audio Mode to Specified Audio Format and picked PCM 24 bit.

5.  JRiver 5 is what I see when I click on DSP Studio.  You can see the standard output format.  Output encoding was listed as 4X DSD so I changed to None.

6.  JRiver 6 shows that I successfully installed the 64 bit VST for Room Shaper.

7.  JRiver 7 shows that I've installed the convolution cfg file for the Bel Canto Streamer.  Homeaudiofidelity recommends that the Room Shaper run ahead of the convolution filters, so that is why I have them ordered as such on the list.

8.  JRiver 8 is back at the main screen and here, I have right clicked on the Bel Streamer to reveal the ability to associate with the CAPSZuma (my core server name) for the Bel Stream DLNA (matching to what you saw in Tools/Options/Media Network/DSP Studio).

9.  JRiver 9 shows the LPC track that self-appeared when I play a track in Roon.

Meanwhile, over in Roon:

1.  Roon 1 shows my core server and the endpoints showing up for it.  Note that I have named one of the ASIO endpoints Bel Canto Streamer (MC).  Before renaming that endpoint, it specifically showed that one as JRiver Media Center 25, so I'm sure it's the right one.

2.  Roon 2 and Roon 3 show my device setup in Roon for the endpoint in question.

3.  Roon 4 shows what happens when I play a track through this new endpoint (we'll get to what it looks like in JRiver coming up).  You will see that the track itself shows that it is playing.  However, the track counter at the bottom doesn't move -- it stays at zero.  No music coming out of speakers when the system is set to the Bel Canto Streamer.  (Returning to the regular Bel Canto Streamer endpoint of course has music playing out through Roon as normal, so I know I'm on the right input on my preamp).

4.  Roon 5 shows the signal path.

Thierry at Homeaudiofidelity comments that he believes that MC25 is blocking Roon when MC25 is not playing directly to the input flux (the LPC track) to a DAC but to the network.  He notes that the setup I show here works for him when plugging a DAC directly to the computer but Roon stops for him when he chooses the DLNA server in MC25.

So, does the JRiver support team or anyone else have some ideas on how to resolve this?  Thanks much.  JCR

[jrobbins]

More photos here.  One more post to get in the balance of the photos.  JCR

[jrobbins]

And here are the rest of the photos.  JCR

[JimH]

You have a lot going on there.

Can you simplify your setup and see if that works?

Or post a simple question?

[jrobbins]

Hi Jim. If I were to simplify, I’d say I am having trouble using Roon to control MC25 over DLNA to take advantage of MC25’s ability to apply time domain filters.  As LPC automatically appears as a MC25 track when I play anything in Roon, I assume the LPC track’s appearance is a key marker to pinpoint the issue. Thanks. JCR

[jrobbins]

Here’s another way to consider what I am out to accomplish:

Roon => JRiver ASIO interface => JRiver DSP => ethernet stream to Bel Canto DAC

JCR

[jrobbins]

Jim, to the extent helpful, Thierry from HomeAudioFidelity ran a test for us, to wit:

“I made a test with Foobar as player and got the same problem as Roon with this error message “Unrecoverable playback error: Timeout”

So the issue is within JRiver.

In JRiver, I tried to link (group zone) an USB DAC with ethernet streaming and there is no more error message from Foobar (no timeout) but no sound either from the USB DAC or from the ethernet device…”

Does that help you in understanding what might be a solution?  Thanks. JCR

[jrobbins]

The LPC is actually IPC, seemingly related to the WDM driver. I have now tried uninstalling and reinstalling the ASIO driver in MC25 and also have enabled the WDM driver. The latter shows up in Roon as a WASAPI endpoint. But, same problem: starting a track in Roon causes an IPC track to appear in MC25 and no sound plays out. Still stuck.

Does correcting the IPC thing have anything to do with setting a special Zone Setting?  I saw some posts that seem to suggest that. JCR

[RoderickGI]

Nicely documented. Thierry at Homeaudiofidelity is correct.

Audio received as an input into MC via the WDM Driver cannot be sent via DLNA to a DLNA Renderer.

I believe this is because the WDM Driver input is an audio stream, while DLNA is a file-based protocol. i.e. The WDM provides a continuous stream of audio to MC, with no duration and little other information. DLNA requires a duration and other information to support seeking as per the standard, and for all the handshaking DLNA requires.

I don't know of any solution with your current configuration. Well, other than dropping Roon and just using MC to control playback.

I have no idea if this could be made to work in MC, but this issue has been raised before, and there has been some discussion on possible programmatic workarounds. But I don't believe anything has been done to develop those workarounds.

[jrobbins]

Hi Roderick.  Thanks for your note.  Well, that's disappointing.  When you mention workarounds, is that the zone thing and has anyone gotten that to work?  JCR

[RoderickGI]

There is no user workaround that I'm aware of. There appears to be a programmatic workaround used by at least one application, which is to set the duration for a stream like this to four hours or something like that. i.e. If the data that DLNA needs isn't available, make it up, and set values to something that most likely won't impact the user.

I don't know if JRiver will ever try to address this issue.

Another solution would be for Homeaudiofidelity to develop a Convolution Filter based on the plug-in they have developed, and the results of room analysis down by a user. Unless the plug-in is intended to be used interactively, rather than be set and forget.

PS: I'm providing this information based on "best-effort". I could be wrong. I haven't tested lots, and haven't tried it with Roon. Only Foobar.

[AndrewFG]

There appears to be a programmatic workaround used by at least one application, which is to set the duration for a stream like this to four hours or something like that.

As mentioned in your prior post, the UPNP specification is based on serving files. The Control Point gives the Renderer a URL of the file, and tells the Renderer to Play it; the Renderer downloads that file using HTTP GET; and the Server delivers that file with an HTTP Content-Length header, that essentially says keep serving/downloading/playing until you have used/played that number of bytes.

Your suggestion of having the Server, when serving a stream rather than a file, set Content-Length = 4 hours worth of bytes (or why not MAXINT-64), is a potential solution. Nevertheless there are a few difficulties: the play progress bar won’t work; and seek and pause functionality would certainly fail. Also there is no neat mechanism for resuming play/download if the HTTP socket connection got severed (which is quite likely to happen over a period of hours, especially on mobile devices).

[RoderickGI]

Nice clarification Andrew.

[jrobbins]

Gents, I appreciate the comments. I will share this thread with Thierry from HomeAudioFidelity and perhaps he will come up with a version of Room Shaper that can work in Roon. Meanwhile, since I’ve got MC25 on my core server, I will just load it up with a Room Shaper and my convolution files from HAF and have a listen through JRiver!  Thanks. JCR