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[d_pert]

P.S. -- I'm trying to assess the significance and extent of an unexplained gain increase that was introduced into many of my files during FLAC->ALAC conversion using MC. That 'issue' involved audible clipping during peak passages -- hard coded into the files -- and is being explored separately here:

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,124054.0.html

I'm trying to assess how many of my files -- going how far back -- were affected by that 'issue'.

Part of this assessment is determining whether 'high' e.g., +3dB Audio Analysis results are fundamentally a sign of abnormality, and whether such values are likely to be only a product of the above-noted 'issue'.

If, however, it's normal/natural for such values to turn up in MC's Audio Analysis for other reasons -- using any files acquired new / in the wild -- due to, e.g., inter-sample effects -- then I will avoid making a logical leap that any such files were negatively impacted by the 'issue'.

I'll have to come up with some other logic for narrowing down to the affected files.

I'm both hoping and not hoping that large + values in Audio Analysis are linked to the above-noted 'issue'. If they are, then I've got a lot more files to reacquire and reconvert. If they're not, then the number of damaged files should theoretically be smaller (whew!), but it'll be hard to ID those... 

[d_pert]

There's yet more narrowing and refinement to be had...

Some of those 'vestigial' (or, just unknown history/purpose) Zones I deleted are re-created by MC upon next launch.

The one Zone which was by itself 'causing' (so to speak) the gain increase issue -- and which I deleted -- was:

============================================================

[Zones\\1001\\Adaptive Volume]
Enabled=i:"1"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
[Zones\\1001\\Audio Settings]
Allow Custom Output Format=i:"1"
Last Change Time=i:"1412281191"
Output Channels=i:"2"
Output Encoding=i:"0"
Output Padding Channels=i:"0"
Output Pseudo Surround Detection=i:"1"
Output Sample Rate Settings="(1:3)(1:0)(1:0)(1:0)(5:44100)(5:48000)(5:44100)(5:48000)(5:44100)(5:48000)(5:44100)(5:48000)(5:44100)"
Output Surround Mode=i:"1"
Output Surround Phantom Center=i:"0"
Output Surround Subwoofer Cutoff=i:"60"
Output Surround Subwoofer Cutoff Downmix=i:"120"
Output Surround Subwoofer Impact Filter=i:"1"
Output Surround Two Point One Mixing=i:"0"
Overflow Handling Mode=i:"1"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
[Zones\\1001\\DSP Studio]
DSP Studio Last Selection="TB_Isone_v3"
Plugin Order="(1:1)(2:13)(13:Output Format)(15:Volume Leveling)(15:Adaptive Volume)(9:Equalizer)(20:Parametric Equalizer)(7:Effects)(10:Headphones)(11:TB_Isone_v3)(13:Tempo & Pitch)(15:Room Correction)(11:Convolution)(22:Parametric Equalizer 2)(8:Analyzer)"
Plugin Order Version=i:"5"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
[Zones\\1001\\Headphones]
Crossfeed (Cutoff Frequency)="700"
Crossfeed (Delay MS)="0.26"
Crossfeed (Stregth)="0.5"
Enabled=i:"0"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
[Zones\\1001\\jb_broadcast]
Enabled=i:"1"
Last Program Data="<XMLPH version\=\"1.0\">\r\n<Item Name\=\"10\">0.2000000029802322</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"11\">0.1500000059604645</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"12\">0.1500000059604645</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"13\">0.1500000059604645</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"20\">1</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"14\">0.300000011920929</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"21\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"15\">0.300000011920929</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"22\">0.1000000014901161</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"16\">0.6000000238418579</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"23\">0.1000000014901161</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"17\">0.6000000238418579</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"24\">0.1000000014901161</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"0\">0.8365384340286255</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"18\">0.6000000238418579</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"25\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"1\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"19\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"26\">1</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"2\">1</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"3\">1</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"4\">1</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"5\">0.699999988079071</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"6\">0.6000000238418579</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"7\">0.4000000059604645</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"8\">0.4000000059604645</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"9\">0.300000011920929</Item>\r\n</XMLPH>"
Last Program Index=i:"3"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
[Zones\\1001\\SyncInfo]
DataConsumedLatency="371519"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
[Zones\\1001\\TB_Isone_v3]
Enabled=i:"1"
Last Program Data="<XMLPH version\=\"1.0\">\r\n<Item Name\=\"10\">0.3333333432674408</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"11\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"12\">0.6666666865348816</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"13\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"20\">0.5</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"14\">0.5</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"21\">0.5</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"15\">0.4999999701976776</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"22\">1</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"16\">0.5</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"23\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"17\">0.3499999940395355</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"24\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"0\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"18\">0.425000011920929</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"25\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"1\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"19\">1</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"2\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"3\">0.0020184789318591</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"4\">0.75</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"5\">0.02203269302845</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"6\">0.75</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"7\">0.727078914642334</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"8\">0.75</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"9\">0</Item>\r\n</XMLPH>"
Last Program Index=i:"4"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
[Zones\\1001\\TB_Isone_v3\\Presets]
DP01="<XMLPH version\=\"1.0\">\r\n<Item Name\=\"10\">0.3333333432674408</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"11\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"12\">0.6666666865348816</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"13\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"20\">0.6000000238418579</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"14\">0.5</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"21\">0.75</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"15\">0.4999999701976776</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"22\">1</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"16\">0.5</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"23\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"17\">0.3499999940395355</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"24\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"0\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"18\">0.449999988079071</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"25\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"1\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"19\">0.8999999761581421</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"2\">0</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"3\">0.0020184789318591</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"4\">0.75</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"5\">0.02203269302845</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"6\">0.75</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"7\">0.727078914642334</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"8\">0.75</Item>\r\n<Item Name\=\"9\">0</Item>\r\n</XMLPH>"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
[Zones\\1001\\Volume Leveling]
Enabled=i:"1"

============================================================

MC then (re)created the following -- much shorter -- and which did not reintroduce the 'issue':

============================================================

[Zones\\1001\\Audio Settings]
Allow Custom Output Format=i:"1"
Last Change Time=i:"1412281191"
Output Channels=i:"2"
Output Encoding=i:"0"
Output Padding Channels=i:"0"
Output Pseudo Surround Detection=i:"1"
Output Sample Rate Settings="(1:3)(1:0)(1:0)(1:0)(5:44100)(5:48000)(5:44100)(5:48000)(5:44100)(5:48000)(5:44100)(5:48000)(5:48000)"
Output Surround Mode=i:"1"
Output Surround Phantom Center=i:"0"
Output Surround Subwoofer Cutoff=i:"60"
Output Surround Subwoofer Cutoff Downmix=i:"120"
Output Surround Subwoofer Impact Filter=i:"1"
Output Surround Two Point One Mixing=i:"0"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
[Zones\\1001\\DSP Studio]
DSP Studio Last Selection="Adaptive Volume"
Plugin Order="(1:1)(2:13)(13:Output Format)(15:Volume Leveling)(15:Adaptive Volume)(9:Equalizer)(20:Parametric Equalizer)(7:Effects)(10:Headphones)(13:Tempo & Pitch)(12:jb_broadcast)(15:Room Correction)(11:Convolution)(22:Parametric Equalizer 2)(8:Analyzer)"
Plugin Order Version=i:"5"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
[Zones\\1001\\SyncInfo]
DataConsumedLatency="170666"

============================================================

I have a feeling this is a store of the default, or MRU (most recently used) DSP studio settings, for Conversion purposes. Just a theory.

Observations:

1) Even if the 'old' Zone 1001 posted above was corrupt, or had some unintended setting, it should have had no bearing on my Conversions because I verified all the settings visually. In every case of straight FLAC-to-ALAC conversion, including in all my tests referred to above, I've positively ensured that DSP is complete disengaged, etc. So ... it's like whatever in that 'old' Zone 1001 was causing the issue was asserting itself despite the apparent setting(s) in the GUI.

2) In the 'old' Zone 1001 -- which is much longer than the new one -- there is a reference to a VST plugin which is no longer even installed on any of my systems. Haven't used it in years: "jb_broadcast".

Update:

3) The following appears in the 'old' but not the 'new:

[Zones\\1001\\Volume Leveling]
Enabled=i:"1"

While this certainly catches the eye, it a) shouldn't have had any effect because DSP was unchecked/off throughout, and b) MC's Volume Leveling doesn't overdrive files into audible clipping (or certainly never does by design).

[RD James]

P.S. -- I'm trying to assess the significance and extent of an unexplained gain increase that was introduced into many of my files during FLAC->ALAC conversion using MC. That 'issue' involved audible clipping during peak passages -- hard coded into the files -- and is being explored separately here:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,124054.0.html
I'm trying to assess how many of my files -- going how far back -- were affected by that 'issue'.
Part of this assessment is determining whether 'high' e.g., +3dB Audio Analysis results are fundamentally a sign of abnormality, and whether such values are likely to be only a product of the above-noted 'issue'.
If, however, it's normal/natural for such values to turn up in MC's Audio Analysis for other reasons -- using any files acquired new / in the wild -- due to, e.g., inter-sample effects -- then I will avoid making a logical leap that any such files were negatively impacted by the 'issue'.
I'll have to come up with some other logic for narrowing down to the affected files.
I'm both hoping and not hoping that large + values in Audio Analysis are linked to the above-noted 'issue'. If they are, then I've got a lot more files to reacquire and reconvert. If they're not, then the number of damaged files should theoretically be smaller (whew!), but it'll be hard to ID those... 

I would assume anything produced by those conversions to be bad, and likely driven to hard clipping; not just having inter-sample peaks.

[mattkhan]

I believe that the five digit Zones are all Dynamic DLNA Zones

user created zones are in that range also

[d_pert]

More findings:

Please see the attached image.

It compares Audio Analysis of a source (master) ALAC and three different Conversions through Handheld Sync. All files are 24bit/48kHz.

With both Volume Leveling (VL) AND Adaptive Volume (AV) turned on (in the Handheld Sync DSP Settings), the resulting file is being driven to +0.0dB AND exhibits the hallmark audible artifacts of digital clipping (the little clusters of 'ticks' coinciding with peak passages).

However, with only VL or only AV engaged, the resulting files neither analyse as high as 0dB, nor exhibit clipping audibly.

In the earlier stages of this thread, all tests which produced 'over driven' files with the clipping sounds were converted with no DSP engaged at all (incl. no AV or VL). Deleting several seemingly obsolete Zones from User Settings.ini seemed to stop that from happening.

However, here, again, is virtually the same issue, cropping up in a different operation (Handheld Sync).

I'll try the same test set in Playing Now; maybe it has nothing to do with the Handheld Sync context...

P.S. -- I re-analysed the source (master) file before performing these tests, in case the existing measurements were somehow in error.

P.P.S. -- In all tests, Adaptive Volume = Peak Level Normalize mode, AND, "Clip protection" = ON always/universally.

[d_pert]

Attached are the results of the same test set run in Playing Now instead of Handheld Sync.

The results are identical so it has nothing to do with the Handheld Sync context. Sorry if that was a red herring.

[d_pert]

And finally, please see the attached image.

I repeated the last test, only the VL+AV combination in my NORMAL (not Portable) install, which is a completely factory-default configuration because I never use it.

The results are identical.

So it has nothing to do with Portable install, or old/uninstalled VSTs. And the relationship to old Zones is now unclear. It would seem to be native to the stock MC26. 

[RoderickGI]

So it looks like you have eliminated old Zones as the cause, but just to complete a thought if I may...

user created zones are in that range also

I don't have any User Created zones in the five digit range. I do see User Created Zones from the MC Server, on the MC Client PC. An example is the Server "Remux Zone", which is seen on the Client as "There: Remux Zone", with a five digit number.

I'll look into this separately, again, if I find time.  Carry on!   

[d_pert]

Except that deleting Zone \\1001\\, and letting MC create a smaller version of it DID eliminate the problem of MC boosting the gain in 'direct' Conversions (no DSP Studio, no VL, no AL).

This last set of tests only shows that the problem can be reintroduced temporarily by enabling the combination of VL+AL.

Easy to confuse apple with oranges with this stuff. 

[RD James]

If I recall correctly, Adaptive Volume doesn't work in fixed mode for conversions.

[d_pert]

'Fixed mode'? Can you explain?

The tests I ran with AV (see images above) have distinct Audio Analysis results, implying that AV did something rather than nothing.

[RoderickGI]

 just downloaded your original FLAC file, converted to ALAC, and Analysed the converted file. Results as per image.

Looks good to me. As RD James found, identical to the original FLAC. There must be something about your environment that is different, in both the normal MC installation and the Portable install.

The Portable installation does use the normal installation as a source of the Registration information. Perhaps it uses more than that, and is the source of the issue on the Portable install?

Maybe because you have never used the normal installation, something hasn't completed correctly, such as components haven't been downloaded on demand when you play files? An old default ALAC Codec/converter perhaps? The PC is connected to the internet to download components, isn't it? It sounds like you should solve the problem on the normal installation first, and then the fix may transfer to a new Portable installation?

[d_pert]

Did you apply AV and VL during the conversion?

I did eliminate the problem for straight conversions, by house-cleaning old Zones in User Settings.ini.

However, the problem re-surfaces when conversion includes DSP Studio: Adaptive Volume AND Volume Leveling together.

This thread spanned two (2) phases -- sorry if the transition isn't clear:

phase 1) gain boost / clipping problem in DSP-free lossless-lossless 24bit conversions (workaround by deleting old Zones, etc.)
phase 2) gain boost / clipping problem in DSP: (AV+VL) lossless-lossless 24bit conversions (no workaround yet apparent)

I just went to another PC (DAW setup -- very lean and mean) and fired up a virgin install of MC26:

Same problem again: Lossless-to-lossless FLAC-to-WAV 24 bit conversion with DSP Studio AV+VL: files 'driven' up to +0.0dB, audible clipping.

[RoderickGI]

Did you apply AV and VL during the conversion?

Nope. I don't ever add DSP of any sort to conversions. I might be forced to for Handheld Sync at some time, but so far haven't. So...

phase 2) gain boost / clipping problem in DSP: (AV+VL) lossless-lossless 24bit conversions (no workaround yet apparent)

I'm not buying in to Phase 2. 

Oh okay, just for giggles. See image.

[d_pert]

Thanks for this.

Indeed: One would not normally apply DSP in conversions. Me either.  I just discovered the 'overboost' into clipping because I happen to use it for Handheld Sync. Taking it over to normal Playing Now-type conversions was just to show that it was not a phenomenon limited to Handheld Sync.

Anyway ... So there's the +0.0dB across the board.

Is it a track where you can easily distinguish the clipping during peak passages (like, piano)?

[RD James]

'Fixed mode'? Can you explain?

The tests I ran with AV (see images above) have distinct Audio Analysis results, implying that AV did something rather than nothing.

There is "fixed mode" which uses the audio analysis data to make a fixed adjustment with peak level normalization selected. All this does is boost the volume by a fixed amount.
There is also "adaptive mode" which is applied to tracks with no analysis data, and I believe it's also used for conversions. This can result in clipping since it's an adaptive dynamic range compression rather than a fixed volume offset.

[d_pert]

Hmm. Not sure about parts of that. The JRiver literature online seems pretty clear: AV (Peak level normalize) mode, and VL together net to a simple gain adjustment, no compressor/limiter style DSP there. And anyway, with the math all correct and Clip Protection added to the design, there shouldn’t ever be audible clipping introduced.

I’m so glad RoderickGI’s image indicates what I’m describing.

Other mystery is: why would all channels on a randomly selected acoustic track measure with the same exact same peak level unless the real peaks had been driven ‘through the top’? The source track shows different peaks per channel. Update: I realize that last thought is flawed and withdraw it. The R/L peaks could be from different parts of the file.

[RD James]

Hmm. Not sure about parts of that. The JRiver literature online seems pretty clear: AV (Peak level normalize) mode, and VL together net to a simple gain adjustment, no compressor/limiter style DSP there. And anyway, with the math all correct and Clip Protection added to the design, there shouldn’t ever be audible clipping introduced.

That is for playback, I believe conversion is handled differently.
Volume Leveling + Adaptive Volume received significant updates a few years back to implement R128 support, but many of the changes only apply to playback.

[d_pert]

Interesting. Well anyway: it’s still an issue that would need addressing. It should be all but impossible to introduce audible clipping into conversions simply by using innocuous normalization features.

[RoderickGI]

Is it a track where you can easily distinguish the clipping during peak passages (like, piano)?

It's just the track you linked to earlier in the thread. I hadn't even listened to it until now. Nice track.

Unfortunately I'm not at my good sound system at the moment. Just my Workstation with rubbish speakers, and listening with my rubbish ears which sometimes add resonance anyway.

I normally play music with Internal Volume set at 80%, and have MC set System Volume at 100%, which only leaves the analogue volume of the powered speakers with volume control. I cranked the Internal Volume up to 100% to see what I could hear. The early part of that track is the loudest, visibly hitting 86% Peak Volume in the DSP Studio Analyzer. Well, I can't tell if it is clipping. Some of the louder notes of the horns aren't pure, but I can't hear any ticks, pops, crackles, or anything else. So, probably no clipping. But I'm no expert.

[d_pert]

Cool and thanks. There’re are a few places in the opening horn(s) section; maybe tomorrow I can send you time-codes so you can A/B compare. Short, passing episodes of little static ticks on some peaks. None in the source.

[JimH]

Cool and thanks. There’re are a few places in the opening horn(s) section; maybe tomorrow I can send you time-codes so you can A/B compare. Short, passing episodes of little static ticks on some peaks. None in the source.

Please take a look at some of the many causes of sound problems listed in this thread:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,24031.0.html

[d_pert]

Hi JimH:

Thanks, but again, nothing in Weird and Wonderful can be applied to this topic.

The images attached above (from me and RoderickGI) plainly show that under certain circumstances, converted files are being excessively boosted.

Short Review

--24-bit lossless-to-lossless Conversions were cranking the gain of output files. Fulsome description and pictorial evidence of this above. Fresh installs, Fresh MCs. Multiple PCs. 'Ticks' were not the issue -- only a symptom. This has not been about 'ticks'. In the end, I was only able to stop it by hacking User Settings.ini (removing Zones).

--Then a separate issue: 24-bit lossless-to-lossless Conversion using Volume Leveling *AND* Adaptive Volume *AND* "Clip Protection" are producing 'overdriven' files (see pictures attached above). These files flatline at +0.0dB on all channels and also exhibit baked-in audible digital clipping distortion coinciding exactly with peak passages.

Please:

--Take any 24 bit FLAC*.
--Audio Analyse it in MC 26.0.19-20.
--Queue it up for conversion in MC 26.0.19-20.
--Convert it to Uncompressed WAV, with DSP Studio: Volume Leveling *AND* Adaptive Volume (Peak Level Normalize mode) *AND* "Clip Protection" ENGAGED.
--Use MC's Audio Analyse on the outputted file.
--See the +0dB|+0dB|+0dB in Peak Level Field.
--Listen to the file on any device/platform: You'll hear occasional moments of digital clipping distortion on peak passages.

*Ideally pick music which does not include loads of distortion and digital noises/effects. E.g., simple pure piano.

[d_pert]

I've uploaded a set of test/compare files to demonstrate/prove the issue. Fresh MC, normal install. Please download them here:

https://app.box.com/s/5wi9djhwsxunzclss9suxywv7mrkcknx

The audio files included are:

   Test A - Original FLAC.flac
   Test A - Straight to ALAC no DSP.m4a
   Test A - Straight to ALAC w AV+VL+CP.m4a <--- listen to approx. 31s in.; compare with two above.

   Test B - Original FLAC.flac
   Test B - Straight to ALAC no DSP.m4a
   Test B - Straight to ALAC w AV+VL+CP.m4a <--- listen to approx. 16s, and 54-55s; compare with FLAC above.*

Please also see the screencap of MC's Audio Analysis of all six files: '_Test A+B Analysis Screencap.png', attached to this post and also in the payload linked above.

*-Re: 'Test B - Straight to ALAC no DSP.m4a':

I performed test A then test B (in that order).

Bizarrely, this file, although only a no-DSP straight Convert, also exhibits the gain boost and audible distortion as 'Test B - Straight to ALAC w AV+VL+CP.m4a'.

The only reason I can think of that happening is ... to prepare Conversion for 'Test A - Straight to ALAC w AV+VL+CP.m4a', I entered the DSP Studio part of the Convert options and engaged AV+VL, as the filename indicates.

Then, when I prepared to produce 'Test B - Straight to ALAC no DSP.m4a', I did as that filename tells, and turned OFF 'Apply DSP...".

However, that didn't work; It's as if there's a bug in the ON/OFF switch(es) for DSP in Conversion Options. ?

[d_pert]

(Crickets chirping.)

[RoderickGI]

Lives living.

I'm a bit busy. Bump at the end of the week.

[d_pert]

Update:

Well I took the plunge...

• Installed a fresh Portable MC 26
• Manually reconfigured (from scratch) the entire application

All the weirdnesses described in the OP and the thread above went away.

Although this is not a solution, others who may experience similar annomolies can perhaps take solace in knowing that "start from scratch" ultimately cleared the issue for this user.   

P.S. -- It may be that the Settings.ini became confused over the years; I'd carried it through Backup and Restore operations through major version upgrades for years. Guess it was time to clean the slate.