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Author Topic: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?  (Read 7377 times)

cowboydude99

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Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« on: April 04, 2020, 04:02:12 pm »

Hi all,
I was hoping to get some help with SVP on my JRiver 25 install.

I'm using a projector on a 100" screen.  I sit only around 9' away, so when watching 24p movies, there is noticeable stop/go judder(?).

It is hard to watch movies when there are pans...

I know a lot of people don't see it, or mind it, but for me it really kills the whole experience.

I just had some questions, nothing major...

If anyone is using, or has used SVP:

a. Does JRiver with MADVR and SVP work together?

b. Are there any issues with HDR?
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JimH

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2020, 05:57:02 pm »

Try both Red October Standard and HQ.  Do they both have this problem?

For testing purposes, make no changes to madVR.
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cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2020, 09:57:13 pm »

Hi and thank you for responding.

With the RO Standard, it is a bit better.  Still a bit distracting.

I'm only watching 1080p with a system (newly rebuilt) running Win 10, i7 8700, 16GB Ram, GTX 1080.

I recently switched to a PJ, so there is no motion processing, which I think I'm very used to.

So I'm experimenting.  90% of what I watch is 4k, so I'm not entirely sure that I need to keep using MadVR.

MadVR - with my normal settings = 16ms.
MadVR - with lower settings for testing = 5ms.

Those render times seem pretty low.
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cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2020, 12:52:54 am »

Hi,
I just wanted to say that SVP seems to be working nicely.

I spent about 3 hours tweaking it though for different content (4K, 4K/60, 1080p).

This is exactly what I was looking for.  You can set specific SVP profiles based on the content frame rate, width, height, etc...

There are some noticeable artifacts.  Reminds me of my old Sony XBR9 TV.
Smooth, but some artifacts...

Overall, very happy using MADVR + SVP.

For anyone else that comes across this.
It takes a bit of time for playback to start.  Audio can go out of sync at first, but then it clicks in after 2-3 seconds.

I'm not sure if there is an option to hold off on playback until SVP kicks in...
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RoderickGI

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2020, 01:55:24 am »

You should have provided a link to the "Smooth Video Project" site in the first post. It would have helped me, and others I'm sure, understand what you were talking about.

Those instructions are six years old! https://www.svp-team.com/wiki/SVP:JRiver_Media_Center  I guess they still apply, but madVR has changed a lot since then. Before trying SVP, did you just try using the MC and madVR functions to upmix to 60 fps and check how that looked? Because MC +madVR can convert any video to 60 fps (and even higher if the hardware and drivers support it) and performs this in real-time.  I used to do that, and it was fine on my HTPC (see signature). But I do sit a little bit further back than you at around 3.5 metres, and my screen is only 65", and my TV is 4K, although that can make panning worse.

On my 30" 2560x1600 Workstation monitor I still upmix to 60 fps from all sources, including 24 and 25 fps. Works fine. No panning issues.

I'm just wondering if you did the comparison between MC+madVR properly configured and SVP. If so, is that difference noticeable?


PS: I don't think MC+madVR does interpolation, as SVP does, so there should be a difference. It is just a question of whether it is worth the extra layer and processing.

PPS: Recent thread on the topic: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,123165.0.html
        Also: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,121502.msg840165.html#msg840165
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
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tij

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2020, 01:14:45 pm »

You have to be more specific … movies are actually 23.976fps (in PC all setting refer to this as 23fps) … if your projector is playing it at 24fps or 50fps or 60fps, there will be stutter

So first thing to figure out is what frame rates your projector support … some screen shot of MadVR OSD screen (Ctr+J) always help to isolate problem

MadVR does have Smooth Motion in its setting under Rendering options … I personally never tried it
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TheShoe

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2020, 07:43:11 pm »

interesting.   wonder if the interpolation is better than the built in on the LG OLED, which i find has too many artifacts.

the best i have used is in my old Panasonic Plasma.   it has a nice “mid” setting which applies just enough dejudder and deblur but very few noticeable artifacts.   i see in previous post artifacts are reported.

i find the effect overall polarizing by most people.   i do think it made a huge and positive difference to the Hobbit movies in 3D, and of course Billy Lynn.....

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wer

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2020, 07:51:01 pm »

LG OLEDs do exhibit artifacting in some scenes if set to Clear or Smooth, but the software solutions I've tried aren't perfect either.

An LG OLED will fare much better if you set the mode to User, and then turn De-Blur up high (like 10) and De-Judder to something much lower, like 1 or 2 or 3.
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tij

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2020, 09:15:06 pm »

MadVR Smooth Motion is not frame interpolation … it is frame blending … so theoretically there should be no "soap opera" effect

Think it was made in case source frame rate does not match display frame rate … to reduce stutter
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TheShoe

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2020, 09:33:53 pm »

LG OLEDs do exhibit artifacting in some scenes if set to Clear or Smooth, but the software solutions I've tried aren't perfect either.

An LG OLED will fare much better if you set the mode to User, and then turn De-Blur up high (like 10) and De-Judder to something much lower, like 1 or 2 or 3.

Yeah - was playing around again with it tonight.   but I do find a subtle amount helps with camera pans - i'm going to leave it on for a bit.

was looking at SVP, but I like all the features of madVr to not want to bother messing with SVP.

and as was pointed out, madvr does not do interpolation.

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wer

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2020, 10:51:39 pm »

but I do find a subtle amount helps with camera pans - i'm going to leave it on for a bit.

A very good test to determine your needs/tolerance is the Lord of the Rings Blu-Ray discs.  The pan across the map at the start of chapter 2 of Fellowship, and the pan across the mountains at the start of The Two Towers.

I find having De-Judder at 1 helps these tremendously, without introducing any downside.  Once you get to 3, you start to see a bit of soap-opera effect. 2 is of course a balance between 1 and 3.  The map, being an unnatural scene, benefits more from having the De-Judder high, but then you use the mountains (or any scene with people) to bring you back to reality. The soap opera effect be better seen with natural subjects.

The LG TruMotion does a good job, if used at moderate settings.  Unfortunately the factory presets are not moderate, they are whole hog.  Some say the Sony OLEDs (which use LG panels) have better motion processing. I've seen them, and they're fine, but I've never had the two sets side by side with the same content playing simultaneously to be able to tell any difference.
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TheShoe

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2020, 12:06:13 pm »

Thanks for the suggestions!  Have all of the LotR movies and will do further calibration.



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cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2020, 03:56:08 pm »

Hi all,
Thanks for the info. I’ll post some screenshots of the madvr osd.

I tried 23fps last night. It was definitely better.

I used the LotR BD on a PS4. Definitely smoother on PS4, but not nearly as pretty looking!

I ended up not purchasing SVP4. I don’t love it as much as I initially did.

It doesn’t do 10bit video, which I want for my HDR projector.

Setting Windows to 12b RGB seems to make the colors stand out a bit more.  My i7 8700  couldn’t handle interpolating this bit rate at 60fps.

Ideally I’d like to avoid interpolation if I can get 24p to look good.
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wer

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2020, 05:28:54 pm »

Again, take care with your framerates.  You keep referring to 24p, but your bluray movies are actually 23.967 Hz, not 24 Hz.

If you play 23.976 content at 24 fps, you will get stutters.  Many software packages will refer to 23.976 as just 23.

On Windows, "23 Hertz" means 23.976, and "24 Hertz" means 24.0.

But if what you're looking at only lists 24Hz/24p and makes no reference to 23 or 23.976, you can't be sure what it's doing without checking the documentation or specs.  23.976 is not 24.

When you're talking about 12bit color, you might be doing some color "enhancement" there. Bluray is 8-bit color.  UHD Bluray supports up to 10-bit color.

Good luck...

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cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2020, 07:34:27 pm »

I keep saying 24fps, I mean 24hz.

The windows setting is RGB 12bit. The video file is 10 bit. I can’t set 10bit with 420, 444, or 422. The Angie is control panel doesn’t have it, so I have to go 444, 422 or RGB 12.

Maybe there are old drivers that would enable it, but I can’t find any...

I will try the 23hz at 2160p.

Madvr is upscaling 1080 to 2160, so I’ll try a few of those videos too.

Just curious, why is 23hz the right one instead of 24hz?  I just figured with rounding it would be 24, but obviously not!

Thanks
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wer

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2020, 08:11:41 pm »

Why?

24Hz is a film standard. You're not projecting a film in a movie theater.  23.976 is the standard used by Bluray.  You're showing blurays.  The bluray spec supports other resolutions and framerates, but you'll hardly ever see a movie that's not 23.976.

So any manufacturer or vendor that says 24Hz when they really mean 23.976 is just lazy or stupid.  It's a mistake and a bad practice, because they are conflating two different framerates.

There's no 23.0Hz standard for video.  The vendors that say 23 instead of 23.976 is just a bit of laziness, because they don't want to make the user interface element wide enough to accommodate the full number.

There is a similar issue with 29.97/30Hz and 59.94/60Hz which involve the NTSC video standards.

The bottom line is that if you playback video at a framerate different from the original, or that is not an integer multiple of the original, there will be problems.  Close doesn't count.  Exact=Perfect, Not-Exact=Frames must be skipped or duplicated, which means glitches.

Thinking that 24 is closer to 23.976 and is therefore better is an understandable beginner's mistake provoked by the bad behavior of vendors.

This is an issue going back decades. You can google it.

If you want your bluray content to play without issues, make sure your projector supports 23.976 or 23, make sure your video card lists 23.976 or 23 as a supported mode, and make sure you configure MC to switch to 23.976 when it starts playback.
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cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2020, 08:28:09 pm »

Ahh!  Ok. I will see if the PJ supports 23.976hz.

With madvr, I would allow switching to 23hz, not 23.976, right?

Thank you for the clarification!
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tij

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2020, 09:56:44 pm »

Ahh!  Ok. I will see if the PJ supports 23.976hz.

With madvr, I would allow switching to 23hz, not 23.976, right?

Thank you for the clarification!

That’s correct ... if both projector and GPU support 23.976 playback should be smooth (unless source is choppy ... there are technique to film at this frame rate to avoid stutters ... especially for panning shots ... if it was filmed badly ... little can be done)

If stutters still occur ... you might have set MadVR scaling way to high for what your system is capable ... and it drops frames (that’s why ask for MadVR OSD)

MadVR tone mapping for HDR is excellent ... especially for projectors

EDIT: in PC world 23 refers to 23.976 ... very confusing indeed
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wer

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2020, 10:28:25 pm »

With madvr, I would allow switching to 23hz, not 23.976, right?

Not exactly.

If you have MadVR do the mode switching, you must match the framerate that your video card lists as an available video mode.  So if your video card says 23, set MadVR to 23.  If your video card says 23.976, set MadVR to 23.976.

In MadVR the mode would look like this: 1080p23   or   1080p23.976    or   2160p23    or   2160p23.976
but you must match the nomenclature used by your video card.

However, instead of letting MadVR handle the mode switching, it is usually better to let MC do it.  This is in Options->Video->Display Settings->Display Settings automatic change mode: Custom

That generally behaves better when returning to the desktop or theater view after playback stops.  Letting MC do the mode switching doesn't inhibit any of MadVR's other abilities.

Only tell one of the programs to mode switch.  Either MadVR or MC, but not both.

Regarding frame drops if you're scaling at 2160p: if you have that problem, please start a new thread about it.  That will help not confuse other people researching their issue.  This thread is about matching framerates, not scaling performance.
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cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2020, 10:58:38 pm »

I tried setting hz on my nvidia control panel to 23.
Madvr - switch to 2160p23 - still a stutter.

Changed madvr to switch to 2160p23.976, but not much better.  I took a screenshot of the MadVR OSD. 

What would you set it to?  Frames aren't dropping or repeating.


https://drive.google.com/open?id=1AKTNPl4vfZTZCmmunhjTcdYYITkrGVso
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wer

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2020, 11:18:42 pm »

Re: "I tried setting hz on my nvidia control panel to 23."

You don't need to change the refresh rate for your desktop.  Leave it at 60Hz.  As long as your video card has the 23.976Hz rate AVAILABLE, MC or MadVR can use it.

Why is your composition rate at 23.98?!?!  It should say 23.976.  Not the same.

Show a screenshot of your MadVR Display Mode Options, and the Display Settings options in MC.  And the Nvidia control panel that shows available video modes.

Do you have anything between your Nvidia card and the projector, like a AV Receiver or something?
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cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2020, 11:43:31 pm »

Hi there.
Chain:  gpu - AVR - projector.

Is the composition rate what needs to say 23.976?  I see the display rate is higher.

I reset the value in madvr, which I’ll send a screenshot to shortly.

Composition now says 23.976.
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tij

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2020, 12:16:35 am »

Your set up looks running ok

That map shot from Fellowship ... is just bad filming imho ... closer you sit to screen more noticeable is jerkiness ... they should not have make that shot as it is (pans fast then slows ... then reverse direction ... then scroll up)

I tried running that scene at 60fps and use MadVR smooth motion ... still jerky ... again just bad filming imho (well ... not really filming ... cgi ... whoever did that scene was more concern to make it look cool without considering it will be rendered at 24fps)

EDIT: only thing I would change ... is to run d3d11 in window mode rather than exclusive
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cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2020, 01:02:29 am »

Weird thing is composition changes...

Now it says 23.975...  then if I stop and start over, it 's 23.980..  What is the composition? 

The map isn't the only time I see issues.  There are a number of pan shots within the first 5 minutes of this movie.  Very annoying!!

Going to full screen window didn't help.

Says there will be frame repeats/drops every few seconds/minutes.  I don't know what is going on...  I tried going direct from the GPU to the Projector-- same thing...

I don't think it is the PJ.  I've tried a BD from PS4 and from BDP-x800...  both seem better to me.

Here are some more screenshots of settings:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-jrtcQ6GOubUFwWGD6B1k967RUMYMh25
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1R_FmPSly8ffYqJ8PK4-Ow9DazjYJO5zI
https://drive.google.com/open?id=15XyYnnByvvT5ZOnEC8Br8x-EN8hEOlUy
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mni1sfVvVEFvWVFjUhgQtEQR49hXzN9N
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wer

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2020, 01:45:11 am »

Thanks for the screenshots.

I suggest you do what I said before:

1. Turn off the display mode switching in MadVR
2. Set your Desktop refresh rate to 60Hz if that is the highest your display will support
3. Turn ON the Display Setting Automatic Change Mode  in MC.  Set it to Custom, and make sure the FILM (23.976) mode is set to 3840x2160 32bit @ 23Hz.

Make sure you do those things, and then try again and show us a screenshot of the MadVR readout.

If you want explanations of the things in the MadVR on-screen-display, google is your friend.

What you need to see is Display Rate=23.976 and Composition Rate=23.976.

Have you ever tried hooking the thing up to a regular new-ish TV, something that definitely supports the correct refresh rate?  Without the make and model of your projector, how do we know what it supports?
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cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2020, 02:09:38 am »

Hi Wer,
I've made the changes.  OS refresh/hz at 60.  MC = display change on, as you recommended.  MadVR- removed the display changes.

No clue why I'm getting different comp/display other than 23.976

Could it be the new drivers for NVIDIA?

Projector = JVC LX-UH1B.

See image:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kEaGeNbno8XVxJLySLw1IgpY6j7wWiKN
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Hilton

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2020, 02:13:36 am »

Ive got SVP and have had it for years and every now and then I used to use it on my DLP projector.
The problem is it doesnt support HDR and on low settings it's still not that great compared to madVR frameblending.

I dont really like frameblending from madVR either, but I notice my Sony AVR does a really good job smoothing out 23.76 to 59.94hz

So it might be worth sending movies as 59.94 (59hz) in JRiver display settings to your AVR or projector directly to see what you get.

I have a Sony 65" OLED and its interpolation is pretty good and a must have with OLED because of the fast pixel response time.

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RoderickGI

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2020, 03:13:30 am »

I'm no expert on madVR, not even a little bit, but all you experts, are the stats highlighted in yellow a problem?



The vsync and available time for a frame are pretty close to the Max Stats, and those Max Stats are just from the last 5 seconds, so it could be higher at times, causing stuttering. Unless madVR compensates if the Max stats gets too close to the vsync.

Max Stats: 1.11+38.53+0.12=39.76 ms
A frame rate of 23.976 fps means 41.708 ms is available per frame, which is what the vsync and frame stats mean, at 41.70 and 41.71, which is just a truncation versus rounding presentation difference.

The cyan highlights show that the projector isn't producing an accurate 23.976 Hz display signal as well. I think that isn't uncommon, but it does imply something about the quality of the device. Any comment guys?
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

wer

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2020, 03:18:09 am »

Bad news.  You should have checked the specs for that projector before you bought it.
Read page 42 of your manual.

At 1080p, it supports only 60Hz or 59.95Hz.
At 2160p, it supports only 30Hz and 60Hz.

You will not be able to play Bluray or UHD content on that projector without stutter.

The best you can do without replacing it is to set your desktop refresh rate to 60Hz, disable automatic mode switching in both MadVR and MC, and then just let MadVR do it's thing.  It will repeat or drop frames as needed, and you'll probably see when it does.  You could try using SVP and let it do interpolation or frame blending, although you'll get the soap-opera effect. But I can't advise you with SVP.

I think the reason your MadVR stats were hinky is because there are some shenanigans going on between your video card and the projector. Nvidia is reporting to Windows a refresh rate that the display it is not running at, so either the card or the projector is cheating. 

Sorry you couldn't get a better outcome.

Good luck....
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RoderickGI

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2020, 03:31:59 am »

JVC America claims "4K/24p 4:4:4/36bit signals", but who knows what "24p" means in this case. https://www.us.jvc.com/projectors/dlp/lx_uh1b/

Review sites I looked at only listed 2160p/60, with no other 4K resolutions.

Oops.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
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  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

tij

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2020, 03:47:34 am »

This might shed light on your question of composition rate ... it has to do with audio and video clocks

http://madvr.com/crt/CustomResTutorial.html

EDIT: this one too

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=173571

I posted these as explanation for clocks ... not as a solution to the problem you having (I never tried custom resolution they are describing there ... so have no comments on them)

For movie playback ... always check if display supports 23.976 before buying it ... also check that other common video frame rates are supported (PAL, NTSC)
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cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2020, 08:25:49 am »

Well that sucks!

Any recommend for projectors?  :)
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Hilton

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2020, 10:06:20 am »

Hey there's nothing wrong with your projector.

It supports 4K 24p (23.976) and 1080p24 (23.976) just fine. It's a very good mid-level 4K pixel shifter.  24p is a marketing term and 99% of the published specs you see around the place means 23.976.

"The LX-UH1 is compatible with full-spec 4K input at 18Gbps throughput – supporting 4K/60p 4:4:4/36bit, 4K/60p 4:2:2/36bit, and 4K/24p 4:4:4/36bit signals"

The pixel clock in the video card you're using is a little out at 23.979 but that's no big deal. 
That's the frame rate the video card is rendering at due to inaccuracies in the default 24p pixel clock and resolution settings.
You can create a custom resolution if you want to be super anal about it and get to an exact 23.976 output from your video card but it's not really worth it. 

Just make sure you have "videoclock" checked in JRiver General Video Settings (smooths video by adjusting audio) That will stop frame skipping when the audio gets out of sync with the video. (because your pixel clock is out very slightly)

The judder you see with slow pans is inherent in 24p material and made worse on fast response time displays because the pixel (or in your case DLP) transition rate from one pixel to the next pixel is so fast that it eliminates the natural blur that was intended by 24p.  (It's called frame hold time - Gaming PC monitors and a lot of projectors have a very fast pixel response which is good for 60hz and higher but at lower fps or hz it's actually a disadvantage.

You want a display to have a native frame hold time at 24p of around 40ms to be able to recreate a more natural motion blur with 24p material. 
Unfortunately most displays are engineered for good high FPS performance at 60FPS or more which means they have less motion blur at 60hz but it results in stuttering or judder at 24p because the frame hold time is typically only 15 to 20ms at 24p which means the pixel has switched on and back off again faster than the next frame which means there's no natural blurring occuring.

On my desktop PC 24p medium speed panning judder is horrendous but my DLP projector its actually bearable and I generally dont notice it unless Im looking for it.  Unfortunately, once you know what it is and see it, you can't unsee it and have to train yourself to not focus on it!!
 
Unless you use a slower response rate display device or use interpolation to add extra frames, or frame blending that adds artificial blurring between frames (that looks unnatural and more distracting to me) or Black Frame Insertion (that i mostly use on my Sony OLED because it works so well and the loss in brightness is worth it!!)  Incidentally, the LG and Sony OLEDs have a measured frame hold time of 39 to 40ms @ 24p which is not accidental. :)

The other thing I've noticed, if the screen is too big and you have the brightness cranked up high you will notice the panning judder even more. So try turning the lamp down and sitting further back.
 
The judder can also be because of poor camera setting choices when filming though most cinematographers know the 180 degree shutter rule very well so avoid it most of the time.   
https://beyondthetime.net/cinematic-motion-blur-180-rule/


https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/stutter

PS. Most good cinematographers now days know when panning faster than the 180 degree shutter rule will allow (medium to fast pans) they should have a shallow depth of field (DoF) so the background is out of focus so the panning judder is massively reduced.  Check out a few scenes where the background is blurred with low DoF vs a sharp background with a high DoF and you'll see what I mean.

I've had to learn all about this to film in 4K24p with my camera to get smooth panning. ;)





 
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cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2020, 10:59:42 am »

Hi there.

I do have the videoclock option enabled.

I set the brightness using a calibration disk, but I can definitely try sitting further back.

Could this be ‘fixed’ using another source device?  Maybe an Apple TV or something?

I don’t really want to choose between HDR and Atmos...
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Hilton

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2020, 11:09:26 am »

I have a couple of Nvidia Shields that work really well as rendering devices but unfortunately that means not using JRiver or madvr features.
The Shields support atmos, HDR and dolby vision.

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/shield/shield-tv-pro/
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cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2020, 01:43:54 pm »

I have an Apple TV to test with.

I tried other media centers, none compare to JR.

I may also try out another PJ and see if that helps.  There are some Epson factory refurbs for  a reasonable price, along with the BenQ 3550.

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JimH

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2020, 02:08:42 pm »

I have a couple of Nvidia Shields that work really well as rendering devices but unfortunately that means not using JRiver or madvr features.
The Shields support atmos, HDR and dolby vision.

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/shield/shield-tv-pro/

I think you know that JRiver for Android runs on the Nvidia Shield.
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tij

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2020, 02:41:38 pm »

I have an Apple TV to test with.

I tried other media centers, none compare to JR.

I may also try out another PJ and see if that helps.  There are some Epson factory refurbs for  a reasonable price, along with the BenQ 3550.

Try turning e-shift off and run projector at native resolution ... maybe that will help ... just shooting blindly here
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wer

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2020, 02:45:17 pm »

The JVC LX-UH1/B is manufactured by BenQ, and is a rebadged BenQ HT5550.  This is a DLP projector that uses a 1920x1080 DMD and TI's "XPR" technology to pixel-shift the DMD to produce 3840x2160 images (across the time domain).  Because each time-pixel is individually addressable, TI claims it meets the definition for 4k.

When the .47in DMDs used in the LX-UH1/HT5500 were first produced, the DMD could only run at 120Hz internally, one 60Hz cycle for each end of the XPR pixel-shift cycle.  Because of this, all projectors using the device might accept any input refresh rate, but they were all converted internally to 120Hz for processing by the DMD.  A 24p or 23.976Hz signal cannot be run at 120Hz without stuttering.

Some time later, TI released new engineering software that allowed the DMD to run at 96/48Hz (if the mechanics for the color wheel allowed it).  By leveraging this new refresh rate, stutter-free playback of 24p sources was possible.  It was left to the OEMs as to how and whether to implement this or not.


So the point is, although the projector may accept any input refresh rate you like, and therefore claim to be running at that rate, the DMD assembly that is actually producing the image may not necessarily be running at that same rate.  There could be internal conversion going on, as there was in all the early projectors based on this chip.

JVC and BenQ don't have much to say about this issue.

Short of getting a statement from someone in BenQ or JVC engineering, perhaps the only way to be sure as to the output capability of your projector is to measure the light output with an oscilloscope.  Alternatively, you could try filming it with your iphone with the iphone recording frame rate set to 240Hz, and then you could count how often the image blinks and calculate the output refresh rate that way, although doing that successfully is harder than it sounds.


Cowboy, I suggest instead of testing with another projector (many of which have this issue) test first with an actual television, something you can verify supports the 23.976Hz refresh rate.  Get your PC and MadVR configuration working correctly with that.  Then, take that working config and hook it up to a projector.

Good luck...
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cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2020, 02:50:14 pm »

I have an old Sony xbr9 sitting around. Do you know if this suitable?  Should I disable all motion flow options for the testing?
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wer

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2020, 04:05:20 pm »

That TV should be capable of the correct refresh rate.  Motionflow should be turned off, and you'll need to do your own research on how to do that.  I think that set perhaps has a TrueCinema mode that needs to be on, but again you'll need to do your own research there.

I don't know which will work best on that TV, setting the Nvidia to 23.976 or 24.  You'll have to experiment. 

But what you want to see in madvr osd is your composition rate locked on exactly what you specified, with a very small clock deviation.  There is almost always a clock deviation because video card clocks never align perfectly with audio clocks.

Here's a screenshot from my HTPC, which has an AMD card running into an LG OLED at 1080p (The TV is too far from the seating area for 4k to be beneficial at a 65in screen size).  I have the correct refresh rates defined on the graphics card as custom modes (you can google that) and I let MC handle the mode switching.  This is what good refresh rate performance looks like.

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cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2020, 08:26:16 pm »

Ok thanks!

You mention that the composition rate should be set to exactly what I set.  Where would I specifically set that?

Is that set from the hz on the gpu/windows resolution?
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wer

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2020, 08:56:33 pm »

You've exceeded your allotment of questions for a holiday weekend...   :)

You get to set the the Display rate, which is the refresh rate you set in MC for a specific movie frame rate, and you want to see MadVR match it as closely as possible.

Your movie frame rate with bluray and uhd will be 23.976.

IN YOUR CASE, you want them all to match as closely as possible at 23.976

Good luck...
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cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2020, 10:32:51 pm »

Haha you’re right!

Thanks for all your help!
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cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2020, 03:49:43 pm »

TIJ- you pointed out that I should disable eShift.

This actually fixed the issue! 

However, this doesn't give me HDR or 4K!

The composition gets locked to 23.976 w/ eShift off.

If I turn it on, it goes to some other number like 23.980, and stutters.
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RoderickGI

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2020, 04:21:39 pm »

However, this doesn't give me HDR or 4K!

I guess that would be consistent with Wer's excellent post:

The JVC LX-UH1/B is manufactured by BenQ, and is a rebadged BenQ HT5550.  This is a DLP projector that uses a 1920x1080 DMD and TI's "XPR" technology to pixel-shift the DMD to produce 3840x2160 images

The projector is really a 1920x1080 device pretending to be a 3840x2160 device, and the mechanism it uses to pretend causes stutter which you can see.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2020, 04:25:11 pm »

Yep... I guess I'm just hoping for something... 

My only options are:
1. Find a '4k' projector that doesn't cause this stutter.
2. Use something like SVP4 Pro, and lose HDR, and introduce artifacts.

Option 1 seems better to me!  I don't know how to determine which 4K projector won't have the same issue.

I think there some companies that may ship units with a 14-30 day free return.

I guess it is what it is!

Thank you all so much.
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tij

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2020, 10:28:41 pm »

turning e-shift off was just a wild guess on my part … does it really noticeably reduce stutter?

Regarding 4K … when you turn off e-shift, do you noticed picture quality reduction from your NORMAL viewing distance … if not, then HD is good enough

Regarding HDR … understand that when TV or projector say it is showing you HDR, all that means is TV or projector is doing tone mapping (HDR source has BT2020 color space, which none of commercial display can display fully … so those display need to map HDR colors to something they can display - aka compress color and brightness, which is tone mapping) … MadVR has excellent tone mapping algorithm - especially for projector application

So MadVR can downscale 4K to HD and tone map HDR

PS. when MadVR does tone mapping, projector/display wont be saying that material is HDR since they are receiving signal that they can display (and hence they do not do tone mapping) … people then assume that this is SDR and bad

Trust your eyes and not what equipment is telling you! … Having said that be aware that sometimes what you are seeing is just bad mastering or bad filming technique!
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cowboydude99

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2020, 08:44:30 am »

Thanks.  Yes, I'm that way- it doesn't say HDR, so it is bad!

The source material are all BD high-quality backups.  Some are actual disks, but same issue.

Yes turning off the eShift really looks good, but yes, I can definitely see there is a much lower quality image.

I am only 9' away from a 100" screen.  I could have bought a much lower cost projector if I was going to limit it to 1080p.

I don't know if there is any solution here.  Maybe I just have a bad unit?
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wer

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Re: Assistance with Smooth Video Project?
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2020, 11:37:15 am »

I doubt your projector is damaged, I think it's working as designed.

If you're sitting that close to a 100in screen, you are going to see everything.  You're well within the range to see the 4k pixels.

For that application you should get the highest quality projector you can, something that is native 4k, and has native support for all the needed OUTPUT framerates, not just input framerates.  At a minimum, you want something that can project images at the following rates: 23.976, 24, 29.97, 59.94, and 60Hz.  If you are in Europe or plan on watching European discs, add 25 and 50Hz.

There are laser projectors, LCoS projectors, 3-chip DLP projectors, all sorts.

You will need to do your own research on what projector is best for you.  That's what magazines, stores, and Google are for.  Try and find one where the testing includes measurements, not just a reviewer saying "It looks great!"  You can also try asking on AVSforum. If possible see it before you buy; take a disc to the store. And buy from someplace with a good return policy. But learn from this first experience.

Good luck...
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