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[pluto]

How do I go about using this? I have no zones of any kind configured (at least not visibly so) and I can hear stuff playing using 26.0.56 as the DLNA server but I can't find the way of viewing the relevant audio path. Thanks.

[Scobie]

Not sure what you're asking here but if you select "Overview" under "Playing Now" it will give a list of DLNA renderers (Zones) and will show what, if anything, is playing.

[RoderickGI]

I guess you are talking about this?

26.0.51 (4/8/2020)
3. NEW: DLNA zones show audio path information during playback (still a work in progress).

I think it relates to the discussion in this thread: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,92801.msg864317.html#msg864317

i.e. The Audio Path showing any DSP being applied to a DLNA Server, sending audio to a DLNA Client.

[pluto]

I guess you are talking about this?

26.0.51 (4/8/2020)
3. NEW: DLNA zones show audio path information during playback (still a work in progress).

Indeed -- that is exactly what I'm referring to. However, this installation of MC (a working DLNA server) has no indications of any zones of any kind. In fact, the only 'evidence' of it operating as a DLNA server is within "Services & Plug-ins/Media Network"

[RoderickGI]

It's working. Try this simple test.

First, do not load a Server Library on a Client. This functionality is for a MC instance playing to a DLNA Renderer. That DLNA Renderer can be another instance of MC, as I used in my test. It could also be any DLNA Renderer/Streamer.

1. Launch MC on twp PCs on the same network, both with Media Network running. Or launch MC and have a DLNA Renderer available.
2. Edit your DLNA Server configuration on the source instance of MC. If you have more than one DLNA Server defined, note which one you are making the changes to. Under "Audio > Mode", set "Specified output format". Under "Audio > Advanced > DSP Studio" select the "Parametric Equaliser", add Mix Channels and accept the default, which is "Swap Left and Right". Close the DSP Studio and OK out of Options.
3. Select the target Zone to play music to. Yes, you do have Zones, even if you can only see "Player", which is the default local Zone. However, in this case we want to play to the DLNA Renderer, which is my case was the second instance of MC running on another PC. Again, my source instance of MC is not connected to the target instance of MC as a MC Client, or vice versa. They are just two independent installations running MEdia Network that can play to each other as DLNA Server and Renderer.
4. If you have more than one DLNA Server defined in the source instance of MC, right-click on the Zone which represents the target instance of MC. Typically that will be represented by the target PC name. Select "Associate with DLNA Server" and then select the DLNA Server name that you changed above.
5. Confirm that the Zone for the target instance of MC is still selected, and then start playing something to that zone.
6 Hover over the Audio Path icon, and you will see that it is populated, and that the "Swap Left and Right" "Parametric Equaliser" DSP has been applied.

QED: The function is working.


Note also that if you connect from a MC Server to a MC Client and play from the Server to the Client, the Audio Path changes will be shown on the Server instance of MC. Using the same settings as above, the "Swap Left and Right" "Parametric Equaliser" DSP. You may also see some DSP in the Audio Path on the Client, such as changes for Internal Volume and Volume Leveling.

Again QED: The function is working.

Note that the functionality is still a work in progress, according to the Release Notes. So maybe something will be changed or improved, but for me it is working, when used as intended.

Also note, I tested on MC26.0.57 and MC26.0.66. Both worked. I can't see any reason in the Release Notes why MC26.0.56 wouldn't work.

[Scobie]

Great explanation as always thanks Roderick.

As an example I have to resample anything above 44/16 for one of my renderers, this shows up as:

[pluto]

Roderick --

The mystery here is my apparent lack of any sign of the zones you expect. Reading your item 5 carefully, I noticed your exact words "Confirm that the Zone for the target instance of MC is still selected, and then start playing something to that zone". Now that sentence only makes sense if one is using the DLNA server in "controller" mode – which is not what I do. In my case, all the clients operate in "pull" mode. However, when I enable "DLNA controller" in the server, things change, to some extent. The two "hardware" clients I use became visible as you describe, but the various software clients (including MC) running on PCs seem to remain incognito.

Having determined that the hardware clients (a TV and the bedroom radio) show up within the server, your steps 5 & 6 follow on nicely, but only, as I intimated earlier, if the server is configured as a "DLNA controller". What are your thoughts on this, and on the fact that software clients such as VLC or MC seem not to show up as clients no matter what I do?

As a side issue, when MC is operating as a client, where do you get the list of items the server has on offer? Do you have to configure a library server? Using VLC as a client, you are presented with an obvious tree as defined within "DLNA Servers/customize views". But as I said, that's a side issue.

Thanks for your interest.

[bob]

Turning on the DLNA Controller function as you did allows DLNA renderers to show up as zones.
That includes hardware renderers AND other DLNA renderers.
A VLC client is NOT a DLNA renderer and will not show up as a zone.
A MC client (with DLNA rendering disabled) will NOT show up as a zone.
A MC Client on the same network with DLNA rendering enabled WILL show up as a zone.
Other software DLNA renderers are things like Volumio.

[pluto]

Thanks. What is the functional distinction between a DLNA renderer and a DLNA client?

I notice that Universal Media Server displays both VLC, MC and the hardware renderers in its "detected media renderers" area without being too fussed about the distinction.

[JimH]

Please read the DLNA topic on our wiki.

[RoderickGI]

Nice summary Bob.

What is the functional distinction between a DLNA renderer and a DLNA client?

I can't find an authoritative definition quickly, probably because DLNA.org has been dissolved and a lot of good information is scattered around the web, but the distinction as I understand it is that a "DLNA Client" consists of a DLNA Renderer and a DLNA Controller in one hardware or software unit.

The main components of DLNA are;
DLNA Server
DLNA Renderer
DLNA Controller

Those components can be turned on individually in MC, but most devices such as your TV include both the Renderer and Controller together, with no way to turn either part off.

The situation with VLC seems a little confusing, as it does seem to act as a DLNA Client, but the definition of Client is a little loose. I tested it. See https://www.vlchelp.com/access-media-upnp-dlna/ However, what I think VLC actually could be categorised as is a DLNA Controller and a local Player, rather than a DLNA Renderer. In other words, it can read content from a DLNA Server and theoretically send content to a DLNA Renderer, but it is not a DLNA Renderer itself. Hence it doesn't show up in MC as an available Zone/Renderer. BubbleUPnP also cannot see VLC as a DLNA Renderer, and BubbleUPnP is very good at finding Renderers. The Whitebear Digital Media Renderer Analyser also couldn't find VLC, although it could find my TV and BubbleUPnP no problem. So I have to conclude the VLC doesn't advertise itself as a Renderer, and I couldn't find any settings that made it do so. Mind you, I'm not a VLC expert.

Also, note that I could not get VLC to play to an instance of MC running as a DLNA Renderer. It found the Renderer okay, although it replicated it up to four times without distinction. It seemed to be trying to play to the Renderer. But it never played anything. It couldn't even find the BubbleUPnP Renderer. Maybe I have an old version of VLC... nope. Finally, VLC calls itself a Media Player, not a Renderer.

Are you sure Universal Media Server displays VLC as a DLNA Renderer? This post would imply it does not: https://www.universalmediaserver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14081&p=41209&hilit=VLC#p41209
"VLC is not visible as dlna renderer".  Perhaps if you have configured UMC to find the VLC exe directly, as per https://www.universalmediaserver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13419&p=41246&hilit=VLC#p41246


Google is your friend for more detail. If you can find the right reference!

If you want more help, please describe all the devices in your setup, including brand and model for the hardware devices. i.e. We now know that you have two hardware devices in the TV and the bedroom radio, and I think you have a couple of PCs running as MC Clients?

Also;

As a side issue, when MC is operating as a client, where do you get the list of items the server has on offer? Do you have to configure a library server? Using VLC as a client, you are presented with an obvious tree as defined within "DLNA Servers/customize views". But as I said, that's a side issue.

Huh?

Have you learned how the MC Client/Server setup works?
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Media_Network
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Media_Server
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Library
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DLNA

A MC Client is a lot more than just a DLNA Client. Sure, it uses components of DLNA, but a MC Server matched with a MC Client allows updates back to the Server, stores a local copy of the Server Library so that it doesn't have to query a DLNA Server and is therefore much faster than a DLNA Server, and... well, read the Wiki and Forum.

[JimH]

MC's Library Server doesn't use anything from DLNA. It was written before we did DLNA.

[RoderickGI]

MC's Library Server doesn't use anything from DLNA. It was written before we did DLNA.

I don't think I knew that. It does use UPnP to find servers though, doesn't it? That is primarily what I was referring to.

[pluto]

Please read the DLNA topic on our wiki.

Oh I have, many times. Thereon item 2 within UPnP terminology implies that the term "Renderer" is synonymous with "Client". The present discussion clearly demonstrates that this is not the case, unfortunately.

The core problem with any DLNA (not only your implementation) is that most people get it working – just about – within their world. But when the need arises to change something, it falls apart like a house of cards.

[bob]

I don't think I knew that. It does use UPnP to find servers though, doesn't it? That is primarily what I was referring to.

It does. Library servers and DLNA servers both show up in the server list in MC. If you are using something other than MC for DLNA control, then MC's individual DLNA servers show up instead of the Library server.

[pluto]

Roderick --

thanks for the most complete definition of those DLNA terms I have yet encountered. An edited version of that post should be in the JR wiki.

I have been using JRiver as a DLNA server for at least 3 years, but never as a DLNA client, hence my somewhat naive-sounding quest for comprehension. The only devices I actually use as clients are the hardware ones, a Roberts radio and Samsung TV. All the stuff with PCs and VLC and UMS is purely to i) cross-check possible bugs and ii) experimentation in the quest for knowledge. It's very convenient because I put both the server PC and client PC on one screen to see what's happening (and control them both) from one seat. I can confirm that UMS definitely acknowledges VLC as a renderer – I have done little more than to install UMS on the server machine and VLC on the client and let them get on with it.

The present query arose when I thought it would be good idea to put the TV audio through some DSP to reduce its dynamic range for late night viewing, and that's how we got here today!

[JimH]

thanks for the most complete definition of those DLNA terms I have yet encountered. An edited version of that post should be in the JR wiki.

It's here:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DLNA

[pluto]

It's here:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DLNA

Nothing like as comprehensive. As I said, that page implies that "renderer" and "client" are synonymous when, as explained earlier in this thread, quite clearly, they are not -- and that very point is crucial, at least to understanding the way that MC's DLNA appears to be constructed.

[JimH]

In MC's world a renderer can also be a server or a controller. 

[JimH]

Here's the Wikipedia topic on UPnP:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UPnP_AV_media_servers_and_clients

It uses "client" in places.  I agree that the terminology is awkward, but a Renderer is the place that playback occurs.  That could be remote or local.

In other worlds, a renderer is sometimes called a media streamer.  Lots of choices.

[pluto]

Terminology is often the biggest evil when it comes to understanding technology. I have found on many occasions that once you have cracked the technological shorthand, the underlying processes can be understood far more easily. When dealing with DLNA, I seem to get the impression that they put the jargon in place first and then went on to build the framework on which the jargon is secured.

Only they forgot to tighten all the screws…

[RoderickGI]

thanks for the most complete definition of those DLNA terms I have yet encountered.

Thanks Pluto. Finding a definition of a "DLNA Client" as being the combination of a DLNA Renderer and a DLNA Controller helped me understand much of what I read, and interpreted, regarding DLNA. Sort of the Ah Ha! moment. Unfortunately that terminology isn't consistently used, just like the DLNA Standard isn't consistently implemented or used.

As you say, once you get the terminology right in your head, then what you read makes much more sense. The DLNA Wiki does actually cover the topic pretty well. Note that UPnP and DLNA terminology is slightly different. UPnP includes a "Client" definition, while officially DLNA doesn't appear to. Hence the informal use of "DLNA Client" by many.

Note also the a "DLNA Client" could be considered to be a "Digital Media Player" (DMP), as a DMP:
"Digital Media Player (DMP): find content on digital media servers (DMS) and provide playback and rendering capabilities. Examples include TVs, stereos and home theaters, wireless monitors and game consoles."
Which means that it is a DMC and a DMR, at least according to Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Living_Network_Alliance#Home_Network_Devices

So you could say that a "Digital Media Player" is synonymous with "DLNA Client", but in a lot of stuff I have read that observation doesn't hold up. As Jim says, lots of choices, particularly in how terminology is used. That's why I always break it down to the three core components, DLNA Server, DLNA Renderer, and DLNA Controller. When I look at the specs of a Network Streamer, I look for each of those three capabilities, regardless of the terminology.

Anyway, get on and add some DSP to a MC Server, and see how that looks in the Audio Path, and how it plays on the TV. 

[pluto]

Anyway, get on and add some DSP to a MC Server, and see how that looks in the Audio Path, and how it plays on the TV

Well, using the Samsung TV as DLNA client, if I play audio files the DSP works (and shows within Audio Path) as you said it would. When playing video files, sadly, it neither shows within audio path nor can I hear its effect. I was testing with really drastic filters within the parametric section so there could be no doubt.

[bob]

Well, using the Samsung TV as DLNA client, if I play audio files the DSP works (and shows within Audio Path) as you said it would. When playing video files, sadly, it neither shows within audio path nor can I hear its effect. I was testing with really drastic filters within the parametric section so there could be no doubt.

Audio for video is NOT transcoded and so will not be affected by the DSP studio settings.
To do that we'd have to pull the streams apart, apply processing and put them back together again since your TV device can't handle separate streams. That would likely only work if the file was converted then made available for playback.

[pluto]

I appreciate the difficulty there.