INTERACT FORUM

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

Is paid support reasonable?

Fine.  I'd upgrade often enough to get it for free
OK.  I'd pay for support instead of upgrading
No.  I don't like it
I don't like the proposal even though I would still get free support

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Modest Charge for Support  (Read 2151 times)

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72446
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Modest Charge for Support
« on: June 20, 2020, 01:26:57 pm »

I'm opening this up for discussion since it's a big change in how the forum might work in the future.

How the Forum Would Work

1.  The forum will require your license e-mail to register you. 

2.  If that license is the current version or the previous version, there will be no charge.  MC26 and MC25 right now, for example

3.  If that license is older, then we will ask for a payment of around $20 per year to use the forum.

4.  If you don't have a current license or the previous one, and you don't want to pay the support fee, you will still be able to browse the forum as a guest.

Advantages for Users

Easier to register for the forum

Less discussion of old versions

Fewer people asking for help and not giving it

Using a current version should be more trouble free and work better with current OS's

Advantages for JRiver

Minor income stream

Less registration support

Better customer experience with the software

Encourages people to search for answers

Summary
People who have a current version or previous version will see no increased cost and should have an easier time signing up for the forum.

People who don't want to upgrade will need to pay or browse as a guest.


Does this seem fair?

Thanks.
Logged

Jamil

  • Galactic Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2020, 01:29:34 pm »

Your proposal makes sense to me.

I do have one suggestion:

Have a new forum to allow potential license buyers to ask questions without having the required license key.  This will allow for questions and answers to encourage more license sales for you.

DJLegba

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 995
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2020, 01:33:37 pm »

Fewer people asking for help and not giving it

If you charge for support why would anyone give help? You'd be collecting payment for a service rendered by people you are not paying.
Logged

rec head

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1009
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2020, 01:34:03 pm »

There are a lot of questions from people using the trial right? It would be frustrating to not be able to ask questions if trialing the software.
Logged

Jamil

  • Galactic Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2020, 01:37:42 pm »

If you charge for support why would anyone give help? You'd be collecting payment for a service rendered by people you are not paying.

I believe what he means is support as in bug fixes.  For example, I posted about bugs that have been in MediaCenter for quite some time.  Those bug fixes require time and effort to fix.  The coders have a cost for their time.

Dawgincontrol

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 679
  • We have met the enemy and he is us.
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2020, 01:43:10 pm »

If it's a bug fix, shouldn't they fix it anyway?  I mean a bug is a problem caused by the program, not the user.  Also, they would want to know about "bugs".

If the JRiver crew wants to actually answer every query and attempt to offer full support then that's one thing.  But, if they're just going to do the forum support in the present manner (which I have no problem with), I don't see how you could charge for expertise you don't pay for.

Also, there are other forums which do answer question about Media Center which would only grow in this case.
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72446
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2020, 01:44:21 pm »

I believe what he means is support as in bug fixes.  For example, I posted about bugs that have been in MediaCenter for quite some time.  Those bug fixes require time and effort to fix.  The coders have a cost for their time.

No.  I mean for support.  Answering questions about bugs is part of that.  Most reports of problems aren't bugs.

I'm not talking about pure development time.

I'm extremely grateful for the time that others give when helping answer questions.  But JRiver has a direct cost of around $100,000 / year for support.  Some people never need it.  Others need a lot of help.
Logged

Awesome Donkey

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 7816
  • Autumn shade...
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2020, 01:45:05 pm »

I agree with Jamal's suggestion about having an area for potential customers to ask questions before purchasing.

Also, I do see one issue with doing this... if you're charging for support of older versions, it might imply to people running those older versions of MC that JRiver might release new builds of old versions of MC with bug fixes and whatnot. However since development of those older versions has ended, it might be a VERY good idea to be clear about it that it only covers support and that not all issues reported in old versions of MC can be fixed. There are likely some users who would get very upset with that idea of paying for support only to be told the issue(s) can't be fixed in that older MC version and upgrading is the only option to fix it. So I could see a slight argument made for those paying for support that a "once in a blue moon" bug fix build of an old MC version (like when a feature breaks, e.g. TheTVDB lookup now broken in all old MC versions except MC26) could be possible.
Logged
I don't work for JRiver... I help keep the forums safe from "male enhancements" and other sources of sketchy pharmaceuticals.

Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit + Ubuntu 24.10 Oracular Oriole 64-bit | Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit (Intel N305 Fanless NUC 16GB RAM/500GB M.2 NVMe SSD)
JRiver Media Center 33 (Windows + Linux) | iFi ZEN DAC 3 | JBL 306P MkII Studio Monitors | Audio-Technica ATH-M50x Headphones

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72446
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2020, 01:53:10 pm »

... I could see a slight argument made for those paying for support that a "once in a blue moon" bug fix build of an old MC version (like when a feature breaks, e.g. TheTVDB lookup now broken in all old MC versions except MC26) could be possible.
The solution to that problem is (and would be) to upgrade.  We see those kinds of problems all the time.  The world changes.  We have to spend time adapting to it.  We need to charge what it takes to do that.

Trying to fix old versions would add a lot of overhead without any significant revenue.
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72446
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2020, 01:59:20 pm »

If the JRiver crew wants to actually answer every query and attempt to offer full support then that's one thing.  But, if they're just going to do the forum support in the present manner (which I have no problem with), I don't see how you could charge for expertise you don't pay for.
A lot of "support" questions are really about how to customize the program.  There are so many possible questions of that type that we couldn't possibly handle them all.  Even a full time paid person couldn't.   

Think about it.  100 formats of files.  A variety of OS's.  Infinite system configurations.  Hundreds of devices.  Some really fringe objectives.  Workarounds for bugs in drivers and OS's.  Bad OS releases.  Devices that are poorly behaved.  And so on. 

We couldn't do it. 
Logged

DJLegba

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 995
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2020, 02:21:38 pm »

We couldn't do it.

Then don't charge for it.
Logged

mattkhan

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 4231
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2020, 02:37:30 pm »

the no of posts of the MC24 (or earlier) board is tiny so it's not obvious that this would change the posting profile or earn much money. I don't see how it would change what people would post either. Many posts are asking for help and if you need help then you need help.
Logged

~OHM~

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1825
  • "I Don't Play The Music The Music Plays Me"
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2020, 03:20:57 pm »

We see the same questions over and over. Those posters don't bother to search the forum, they are in me only mode...lol 

most of the posts aren't bugs they are user error. I'm not free from that!




just a thought
Logged
“I've Reached A Turning Point In My Life. I Now Realize I Have More Yesterdays Then Tomorrows”

Jamil

  • Galactic Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2020, 03:28:09 pm »

Honestly, I do not see JRiver staff answering questions about how to use or customize the program at all.

I see volunteers answering these questions.  Unless these 'volunteers' are getting paid, I am not understanding the thought to charge anything.

Support as in investigating raised issues is another story.  This was what I originally thought you meant/.

Awesome Donkey

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 7816
  • Autumn shade...
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2020, 03:34:08 pm »

Depending on platform (Windows is way more forgiving than macOS and Linux are with older versions) ending support for old MC versions after X amount of years (except perhaps the resetting the restore count of a license in certain circumstances) might be something to consider too.

Eventually older MC versions won't run correctly if at all on newer macOS releases and newer Linux distros that have newer dependencies that could be incompatible.
Logged
I don't work for JRiver... I help keep the forums safe from "male enhancements" and other sources of sketchy pharmaceuticals.

Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit + Ubuntu 24.10 Oracular Oriole 64-bit | Windows 11 24H2 Update 64-bit (Intel N305 Fanless NUC 16GB RAM/500GB M.2 NVMe SSD)
JRiver Media Center 33 (Windows + Linux) | iFi ZEN DAC 3 | JBL 306P MkII Studio Monitors | Audio-Technica ATH-M50x Headphones

wer

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2640
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2020, 03:35:51 pm »

I have some definite thoughts on this.  But first I'd like to ask a question.

How are you calculating your $100,000+ "support" costs?

Does it include all time spent by staff reading the forums? Or just researching and typing answers on the forums? Or just development time to address issues discovered on the forums? Or hosting & bandwidth charges?
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72446
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2020, 04:09:06 pm »

How are you calculating your $100,000+ "support" costs?

Does it include all time spent by staff reading the forums? Or just researching and typing answers on the forums? Or just development time to address issues discovered on the forums? Or hosting & bandwidth charges?
All of those, other than development.

If a user makes a suggestion, and a few people comment favorably, we'll often make a change.  Is that support?

The status bar, for example.  Then there was a negative reaction to the change, so we discussed it with the forum and among ourselves.  Is that support?

I'm taking 10% of our labor costs (it's higher for my own costs) and adding 30% for the burdened cost (Employer's Share of FICA, unemployment, disability, insurance, overhead, etc.  30% is probably low.

I didn't even think of server costs.  Bob probably spends a quarter of his time keeping them up to date, dealing with maintenance and hardware issues.

Bandwidth, electricity, cooling.

Do I sound like your father telling you to "turn off the lights!"

There is no question that our user community as a whole is more capable at support than we are.  We couldn't do it without you.

But our team has a lot of value in this proposition and I want them to be well compensated.

As Awesome Donkey mentioned above, we need to keep our customers running smoothly on new OS's.

What has Windows Defender cost us?  Or all the other problems that end up in the Weird Problems thread?  They can soak up a lot of time before we find out that (oops) some driver is misbehaving.

These aren't  theoretical costs.  They're real.

So, if you have a better idea, don't be shy.  Tell us what you think would work better.
Logged

BigSpider

  • Galactic Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 352
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2020, 04:22:05 pm »

I really can't see that charging folk on old versions to use the forum is going to generate much income. If you can't be asked to upgrade to better versions of the software, why would you pay $20 to use the forum which isn't giving support for your version in any real sense. Surely in a business model costs are built into the model and the software is priced accordingly.
Logged
English spiders are kind of small, but when I was living in the African rain forest well ......

RD James

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1871
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2020, 04:58:53 pm »

I don't see what is to be gained by this.
Except for a small overlap when a new version is just released, you generally seemed to drop support for old versions right away, with discussion of those left to their own section of the forums.
 
And a huge amount of the support provided here is from other users rather than staff.
Do you believe there's a significant number of posters that are asking for help in the MC26 section which are using an older version?
 
I would think a complete restructuring of the forums and the way that things like bug reports and feature requests are handled could be more productive.
Logged

wer

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2640
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2020, 05:30:24 pm »

(My apologies to those who don't like reading anything lengthy. This is a long post, in response to an important topic.)

Ok, since you ask...

First, I would say that some of the things you describe are not support.  Support is directly addressing a user issue in a way that provides value to the user, and the costs directly associated with that.  So for example the costs of hosting the forums are support, but the costs of hosting the JRiver website are not.  The costs for purchase payment processing are not support. Similarly, directly answering user questions on the forum is support, but the entirety of time spent reading the forums is not; here's why: a smart developer or product manager must monitor and take into account user feedback.  Seeing (reading) what questions and problems are raised on the forum are essential to being in touch with the needs of your user base and future product development and refinement, and the time spent doing that is analysis and research, not support. Failure to do it means a product disconnected from the needs of the users.  In other words, if you read 100 forum posts and answer 1, you count the time on the 1 as support, not the 99.  So some of those things are merely the cost of doing business, not the cost of support.

But frankly, I think that's minutia and beside the point. Whether your support costs are 50k or 100k, although obviously the difference matters to you, is not the central issue and I don't want to argue about it.

We've also previously established that you do not believe that better documentation reduces support costs and thus increases profits, so I will not beat any further the dead horse of providing more comprehensive documentation as an initiative.  That is also not the central issue.

The central issue is the appropriateness of charging for the forums.

If JRiver wants to offer a paid support option, where JRiver developers or support engineers would actually be obligated to respond in a timely and complete manner to a question or case, that would be perfectly reasonable, perhaps even marketable.  Lots of companies, including Microsoft and Cisco, use this approach. That is one option.

Or maybe you could adopt the Uber model: you charge for a brokerage service. When Roderick answers a question, the user is charged $10, and you keep $3 and Roderick gets $7.  If you think about it, you can probably see the reason Uber wouldn't stay in business if they kept the whole $10.  That's essentially what you're positing.

But charging for access to a user-to-user forum... I think that this is an odious idea. On several levels.

Charging for the forums is tantamount to turning MC into a subscription: since it does not come with good quality documentation, being able to ask questions on the forums is essential to many users, especially those less technically adept. For these people it's simple: Sure you can get the software for the regular purchase price, but don't expect to be able to use it fully or effectively unless you pay for the forums too. It is only access to in-depth interactive support that makes the software, which is difficult to learn for many people, a manageable solution.

Further, 90% of the questions that are answered on this forum are answered by users, not by JRiver staff.  People like Marko, Brian, Roderick and others (even me, in my small way) spend a lot of time answering questions and writing detailed tutorials for no other reason than they want to help other people.  JRiver doesn't do this, the users do.

You've said JRiver couldn't answer all the "customization" questions due to the number of permutations, even if you had a full time paid person to do it.  JRiver gets around that problem now by just ignoring questions they don't want or have time to answer, and leaves it to the users.  That's fine, but that's not how a legitimate paid support model works.  If you want to be paid for support, you have to provide support.

Charging for the forums, as they are currently operated is nothing less than making money of someone else's work.  Charging for access to the work of others, when they are donating it out of a sense of charity, and donating not to JRiver but to the community, is not only repugnant, it's offensive.

Having a business model that depends nearly entirely on unpaid charitable acts to provide direct user-to-user support walks a fine line. Charging money for it crosses the line, into exploitation.  Even Microsoft, experts at extracting every last nickle, do not charge for access to their community forums.

There was mention about the support costs associated with old versions. How often do JRiver staff actually support old versions?  It's the users that answer those questions.
When someone like Marko is donating his time and wants to answer a question, to say that a user can't ask Marko a question about MC23, and thus Marko can't answer it, unless you are paid is simply beyond the pale.

A big part of the reason why JRiver has done as well as it has, is because it has a vibrant, and charitably minded, user community. It would be unwise to stifle that, or try to be overly controlling of it.

It's also bad business, because the forums are fungible...

The price elasticity of a good is constrained when that good has acceptable or perfect substitutes.  Many would argue the the MC software itself does not have good substitutes, because of its feature set.  Someone who needs the capability of MC views will not switch to WinAmp, because WinAmp just can't do what they need...  On the other hand, the forum has many perfect substitutes. There are many, many, many audio forums on the internet, where JRiver users could move and setup a set of boards to discuss this software, and on those forums they could have just as good access to other JRiver users as here.  The only thing that distinguishes this site from any other is access to the JRiver developers: if that access goes behind a paywall, then the entire user base can move to another forum with zero loss.  That is not something JRiver can control. Charging for these forums will simply encourage the community to move elsewhere, to a different forum where they can discuss the software freely. And it won't only be the people who ask questions that move, it will be the people providing the content, the answers.

There are other better options. The simplest: If you don't think you're making enough money off MC, charge more for it.
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72446
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2020, 06:32:11 pm »

First, I would say that some of the things you describe are not support.  Support is directly addressing a user issue in a way that provides value to the user, and the costs directly associated with that.  So for example the costs of hosting the forums are support, but the costs of hosting the JRiver website are not.
In addition to the forum, we host a wiki. 

We host old versions and explain how to get them and to recover a license.

We host the license server so people can retrieve their licenses.  We explain how.

We provide metadata, some of which is ours.  YADB for CD lookups, and Cover Art, for example.

We host skins, etc.
Quote
The costs for purchase payment processing are not support.
Not the initial purchase, but if something goes wrong or the user buys the wrong product or buys it twice, we fix it.
Quote
Similarly, directly answering user questions on the forum is support, but the entirety of time spent reading the forums is not;
Sure.
Quote
here's why: a smart developer or product manager must monitor and take into account user feedback.  Seeing (reading) what questions and problems are raised on the forum are essential to being in touch with the needs of your user base and future product development and refinement,
No disagreement
Quote
and the time spent doing that is analysis and research, not support.
You have to read  the posts to know what they are.  You have to weigh the merits of suggestions.  You have to communicate them in a way that the team understands.
Quote
Failure to do it means a product disconnected from the needs of the users.  In other words, if you read 100 forum posts and answer 1, you count the time on the 1 as support, not the 99.  So some of those things are merely the cost of doing business, not the cost of support.
Sure.  You could think that.
Quote
We've also previously established that you do not believe that better documentation reduces support costs
No we haven't.  I'm in favor of documentation.  It's on the wiki and on the forum.  I spend significant time on it.  Getting words right matters.

You may mean a single document as a pdf or similar.  I don't think it would work unless we had a single version and we stopped changing it.  Even then, OS changes would wreck it.
Quote
The central issue is the appropriateness of charging for the forums.
Which is what I asked for in the first place.
Quote
If JRiver wants to offer a paid support option, where JRiver developers or support engineers would actually be obligated to respond in a timely and complete manner to a question or case, that would be perfectly reasonable, perhaps even marketable.  Lots of companies, including Microsoft and Cisco, use this approach. That is one option.
I'm skeptical that people would buy that and that quality support would be the outcome, but OK.  If you think it's a money maker, there's a business for you.
Quote
Or maybe you could adopt the Uber model: you charge for a brokerage service.  When Roderick answers a question, the user is charged $10, and you keep $3 and Roderick gets $7.  If you think about it, you can probably see the reason Uber wouldn't stay in business if they kept the whole $10.  That's essentially what you're positing.
It isn't, but you're entitled to believe it.
Quote
But charging for access to a user-to-user forum... I think that this is an odious idea. On several levels.
Why not just say that and be done with it.  The rest is pedantry.
Quote

Charging for the forums is tantamount to turning MC into a subscription: since it does not come with good quality documentation, being able to ask questions on the forums is essential to many users, especially those less technically adept. For these people it's simple: Sure you can get the software for the regular purchase price, but don't expect to be able to use it fully or effectively unless you pay for the forums too. It is only access to in-depth interactive support that makes the software, which is difficult to learn for many people, a manageable solution.

Further, 90% of the questions that are answered on this forum are answered by users, not by JRiver staff.  People like Marko, Brian, Roderick and others (even me, in my small way) spend a lot of time answering questions and writing detailed tutorials for no other reason than they want to help other people.  JRiver doesn't do this, the users do.

You've said JRiver couldn't answer all the "customization" questions due to the number of permutations, even if you had a full time paid person to do it.  JRiver gets around that problem now by just ignoring questions they don't want or have time to answer, and leaves it to the users.  That's fine, but that's not how a legitimate paid support model works.  If you want to be paid for support, you have to provide support.

Charging for the forums, as they are currently operated is nothing less than making money of someone else's work.  Charging for access to the work of others, when they are donating it out of a sense of charity, and donating not to JRiver but to the community, is not only repugnant, it's offensive.

Having a business model that depends nearly entirely on unpaid charitable acts to provide direct user-to-user support walks a fine line. Charging money for it crosses the line, into exploitation.  Even Microsoft, experts at extracting every last nickle, do not charge for access to their community forums.

There was mention about the support costs associated with old versions. How often do JRiver staff actually support old versions?  It's the users that answer those questions.
When someone like Marko is donating his time and wants to answer a question, to say that a user can't ask Marko a question about MC23, and thus Marko can't answer it, unless you are paid is simply beyond the pale.

A big part of the reason why JRiver has done as well as it has, is because it has a vibrant, and charitably minded, user community. It would be unwise to stifle that, or try to be overly controlling of it.

It's also bad business, because the forums are fungible...

The price elasticity of a good is constrained when that good has acceptable or perfect substitutes.  Many would argue the the MC software itself does not have good substitutes, because of its feature set.  Someone who needs the capability of MC views will not switch to WinAmp, because WinAmp just can't do what they need...  On the other hand, the forum has many perfect substitutes. There are many, many, many audio forums on the internet, where JRiver users could move and setup a set of boards to discuss this software, and on those forums they could have just as good access to other JRiver users as here.  The only thing that distinguishes this site from any other is access to the JRiver developers: if that access goes behind a paywall, then the entire user base can move to another forum with zero loss.  That is not something JRiver can control. Charging for these forums will simply encourage the community to move elsewhere, to a different forum where they can discuss the software freely. And it won't only be the people who ask questions that move, it will be the people providing the content, the answers.

There are other better options. The simplest: If you don't think you're making enough money off MC, charge more for it.
You lost me at the half way mark.  We're not raising the price of MC.  Particularly at this time.

It would be helpful to stay on topic.



Logged

wer

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2640
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2020, 06:40:38 pm »

You lost me at the half way mark.

I know. I'm not surprised. It's ok.
Logged

blgentry

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 8014
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2020, 07:32:55 pm »

I oppose the idea of charging for the forum.  It's the wrong approach to your monetary cost.  The correct approach is to price your product to include all of the costs of doing business.  Including support, which is part of producing software.

But let's just talk money for a moment.  Do you expect that limiting forum questions to license holders will change your costs?  If that were to work, it would mean that less people would be able to ask questions.  That's the only way to reduce your costs from this standpoint.  Let's say that works and your costs go down by... 30%?

What is the opportunity cost of doing this?  I can tell you that if I owned MC24 and came here to ask a question and found I was not able to post to the forum without a new version or to pay $20 to do so, I would be... upset.  Probably upset enough to have a negative opinion of the company that produces this product. 

Or said another way, the help people receive here probably encourages some percentage of them to upgrade.  You would remove this positive customer experience and thus lose some sales.  How many?  I don't even have a guess.  But I can tell you for certain that you would be killing a lot of the good will that people feel after getting help here.  Winning hearts and minds is the first step to winning wallets.

I'm going to say something really radical now.  If you weren't listening before, listen to this:

You should dramatically increase costs to upgrade to the latest MC versions.  You're almost giving away upgrades.  On the surface this is a very generous way to treat your customers.  But you're now telling us that expenses are so high that you want to charge for the forum and limit membership to current customers.  That seems rather backwards.  Increase your product prices and increase your revenue.  Then you can continue to provide support the same way you have for many years.

Brian.
Logged

RoderickGI

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 8186
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2020, 07:48:32 pm »

I pretty much agree with everything Wer wrote. EDIT: Brian as well.  ;)

The only clarification I would add is that the charge only applies to users with licences older than the current and previous version, and that changes some of the discussion.

I don't believe many, if any, users would pay for this support. In fact, I believe once users understood the rules, they would just ask all their questions in the MC26 forum, and lie about what version they have. People would still answer their questions, and 80% of the answers would still be relevant. Commercially, you couldn't punish people who did that, say by removing their forum access, because the forum is the only support offered. Sure, you could give them a holiday, but that would just result in lost customers. Anyway, then you would have to police who is asking questions, where, which will add to your costs Jim, which I suspect would completely defeat the purpose of the charge, and probably absorb all of it.

Then there is the tedious work that we do to keep the forum organized.  Viagra ads, posts in wrong places, spam, and so on.  Topics that run away and need to be divided.  Typos.   Ever wonder about typos and why they disappear?  Probably never noticed.  That's good.

This actually of significant value. It is what makes the forum a good community. Frankly, I think this should be a paid position within JRiver, and the person doing it should probably be working on the Wiki, accumulating a knowledge base, and making answering questions a whole lot easier as users could just be pointed to a Wiki page more often than they can be currently. I also believe that person should be creating product videos, including tutorial videos. While those could not cover specific questions they would cover a lot of generic questions that come up, especially for new users. Once the basics of how MC works are understood a lot of users will be able to work out their specific issues.

Currently, you do a lot of the forum and support management Jim. If you aren't the right person, because you have other more important issues to address, or other reasons, you need to find the right person. If that isn't viable for cost reasons, then you are between a rock and a hard place.

I don't know the demographic of MC users, but I suspect it is an ageing population. I see a lot of questions from older people who need help just with computers as much as MC, and they are quite often on older versions of MC. I'm sure there are a lot of younger new users, but I don't think they ask as many questions. They work it out, ignore the issue, work around it, or move on to other software or streaming services. The older demographic is less likely to upgrade because what they have just works, or maybe they don't know how to upgrade, struggle with it, or are scared of trying to upgrade.

Jim, I think some of the benefits you have assigned to this proposed change and more than a little questionable.

I'm not sure of the motivation for this proposed change. If it is just to ameliorate the cost of support, I don't think it will work. If it is to try to move users on older versions up to current versions, then your generous licence and specifically upgrade terms are probably working against that. You could simply have tiered licencing where upgrades from the previous version (or two) are significantly cheaper than upgrades from older versions.


Having users use the email address they used to buy MC for the forum would not work well for me, and I suspect others. I use one email address for insecure forums and such, and another for any secure payment processing. I don't mix the two generally. What would reduce confusion in this area would be to have people always use the same email address for all purchases and upgrades, unless they explicitly change it. At present a user can change email address, or just guess incorrectly which one they use last time they purchased, so that each upgrade could use a different email address. I have flip-flopped between two in the past unintentionally. But users change email addresses pretty often these days, and lose access to them, so managing that process is all part of doing business. Automation can alleviate any workload that creates, mostly.

I don't think the proposal is particularly onerous otherwise. I just don't think it will do anything positive.
Logged
What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

RoderickGI

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 8186
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2020, 07:58:57 pm »

I don't like your Poll either Jim.

I do upgrade and get support free anyway. But I don't like the proposal. It would potentially sour the forum for me, with unhappy people likely to have a go at me when I comment.

I would have selected "I don't like the proposal even though I would still get free support" if that option was available, not because of the cost, but because it changes the nature of the relationship between JRiver and your customers.
Logged
What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

erviv

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2020, 08:11:42 pm »

I suspect there is a low threshold above which people will not accept a price increase for upgrades.  A dramatic increase in pricing is likely to result in lower revenue.  However as you are not proposing a price increase there is no point in further side tracking the discussion.

I agree that help would become fragmented if there were support charges.
For me as I have always upgraded to the latest version of MC the proposal would not affect me, unless it drove away those currently helping to other forums.
If Stopping to respond to users of earlier versions (say three years) would result in reduced support costs I would be supportive. Not sure how that would work or, if in fact that managing forum privileges by user version might increase overhead/support burden. 
Logged
MacBook Pro i5 2.3Ghz 8 GB (early 2011) 1Tb SSD; 3 Raspberry pi’s 4 and 2@ 3B (o/s: Buster).

dtc

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3119
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2020, 09:16:12 pm »

I just checked the MC 24 boards. In the last month there are about a dozen topics on the Windows board, with 2 topics for MAc and none for Linux. There are only a couple on ancillary comments from JRiver personnel.  And, if there are any bugs in old versions, the only fix is to update to the new version. It does not seem like charging people with old versions is the best way to raise significant revenue.  The support needs are mostly for the current version. If more revenue is needed, then it seems like it should come from the active users, not from people with old versions.

The support that JRiver provides is significant and appreciated. And, yes, the time spent doing that takes away from development time. I understand that JRiver is a small company, but many companies use dedicated people to do documentation and support, typically at a lower cost than the development people. And better documentation can potentially decrease support costs. Something to think about.

A large amount of the support on the forum comes from other users.  As has been said, if you charge for use of the forum how much do you pay the volunteers who spend huge numbers of hours supporting other users and writing documentation?  Having people pay to use a user forum just seems wrong.

If JRiver believes they need more revenue to support the current development and support, then an increase in price seems like a better approach. A increase of a few dollars for new licenses and version upgrades will probably generate as much if not more revenue than trying to get people with old licenses to pay for support.

Logged

EdBrady

  • Junior Woodchuck
  • **
  • Posts: 92
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2020, 09:22:43 pm »

I answered no; paid support is a good way to turn away potential customers, both new and upgraders.
Logged

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72446
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: Modest Charge for Support
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2020, 10:14:38 pm »

Ok. Thanks for the feedback.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up