Topic: Sporadic noise via WDM driver for DSD (Read 2262 times)

michael123 · « **on:** July 03, 2020, 06:34:34 am »

Hi

There is a configuration when Roon sends the audio via WDM to JRiver.
WDM is configured for exclusive access, no MQA support, and PCM up to 192Khz.

DSD is converted to PCM inside Roon in two cycles as DSD to PCM and then from high-rate PCM to 192Khz
Problem is that sometimes there is a pink noise heard when playing back DSD, sometimes it works.

Question -- is it possible to send DoP to WDM and thus bypass the DSD conversion in Roon?

JimH · « **Reply #1 on:** July 03, 2020, 07:31:03 am »

WDM just "plays" what it receives. Any sound problems are either from the source or from the DAC.

You could try just using MC to play files, as a test.

DSD to PCM to 192Khz is the normal way DSD is converted.

michael123 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 03, 2020, 07:44:27 am »

Playing back same DSD album

Once there is a sound,
another time there might be a pink noise

no other changes around

Happens just with DSD titles

I changes sample rate to 96Khz, and then I got a sound,
but soon after playing around also for this rate got a noise

So went back to 192Khz

Added 10sec delay in JRiver for playback.
Same effect - looks like helped for some time, but afterwards again pink noise

Roon of course says it is sending a converted PCM, and I see JRiver receives it as well, same sample rate.
Biut I hear noise.. sometimes.

Is it possible to send DoP to WDM?
if not, is it possible to add this as a feature?

JimH · « **Reply #3 on:** July 03, 2020, 07:50:53 am »

~~You can send anything to JRiver's WDM. It's a driver.~~

Try using MC's DSP Studio > Output format to force everything to the same bitrate/sample rate. Start at 48Khz. That way, the DAC doesn't have to change. It might make a difference.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #4 on:** July 03, 2020, 07:52:21 am »

Does the WDM driver even support DSD (without converting it to PCM)? I wouldn't be surprised if it was PCM only (and I do vaguely seem to recall somebody asking a long time ago and it was answered it was PCM only. Maybe I'm wrong.).

Hendrik · « **Reply #5 on:** July 03, 2020, 07:55:15 am »

Its definitely PCM only, and it tops out at 192kHz, so DoP which requires higher rates cannot be used either.

michael123 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 03, 2020, 07:59:59 am »

Quote from: Hendrik on July 03, 2020, 07:55:15 am

Its definitely PCM only, and it tops out at 192kHz, so DoP which requires higher rates cannot be used either.

Yep, I found my own thread exactly 2 years ago
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=116611.0

What can I do?
Can i get a clear indication from JRiver that the input signal WDM receives is not a PCM?

Why sometimes I get the sound, and more frequently - on DSD albums - I get noise. But not always so.

Is it possible to add higher rates to WDM as well as DoP support?
So in this case I could just send any kind of signal and thus prevent any unnecessary conversions in Roon (or any other playback SW)?

Hendrik · « **Reply #7 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:05:21 am »

No, 192kHz is already pushing it, more data is not going to make the driver happy.

dtc · « **Reply #8 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:08:38 am »

I wrote this while other comments were being made, but thought I would post it anyway.

I think a little experimenting is in order. You may have done these already, but here are my suggestions

Do 96 Khz and 192 Khz play correctly to your DAC OK when playing directly from MC? If so, I would start with sending a 96 KHz PCM file from Roon to WDM on MC, without the complication of DSD. Then try a 192 Khz PCM signal.

A DSD64 (1xDSD) in DoP format is packed as a 176 KHz PCM, so I would also try playing a 176 KHz PCM file from MC and also from Roon.

You should also test a DSD through DoP file directly within MC. To do that you need to use either WASAPI or and ASIO driver and have bitstreaming set to on for DSD and using DoP if using ASIO. WASAPI will automatically use DoP.

A DoP signal through WDM should play to your DAC as a 176 KHz file and be interpretted as such by your DAC, as long as all DSPs are off. Also make sure your volume is turned off or set to 100%. Any volume change would change the DoP encoding.

Look at Audio Path as you try these, just to be sure no changes are being made to the signal.

dtc · « **Reply #9 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:17:19 am »

Quote from: JimH on July 03, 2020, 07:31:03 am

DSD to PCM to 192Khz is the normal way DSD is converted.

DSD to PCM conversion is typically done by converting at an integral multiple of the DSD rate and then that is often converted to a lower PCM rate. The DSD rates are all multiples of 44.1KHz. DSD64 (1x) is typically converted to 352 KHz, DSD128(2x) to 705 KHz, etc. To downsample those, it is probably best to do it as an integral multiple of 352 KHz, thus 176 Khz or 88 Khz, assuming the DAC handles those rates. The integral multiple takes less CPU time, which means there is less chance for problems because of CPU usage.

michael123 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:18:26 am »

Quote from: dtc on July 03, 2020, 08:08:38 am

Do 96 Khz and 192 Khz play correctly to your DAC OK when playing directly from MC? If so, I would start with sending a 96 KHz PCM file from Roon to WDM on MC, without the complication of DSD. Then try a 192 Khz PCM signal.

PCM playback via WDM from Roon was working so far OK without any issues

Quote from: dtc on July 03, 2020, 08:08:38 am

A DSD64 (1xDSD) in DoP format is packed as a 176 KHz PCM, so I would also try playing a 176 KHz PCM file from MC and also from Roon.

You should also test a DSD through DoP file directly within MC. To do that you need to use either WASAPI or and ASIO driver and have bitstreaming set to on for DSD and using DoP if using ASIO. WASAPI will automatically use DoP.

JRiver plays back directly DSD and PCM all rates of course without any issue,
DAC is DSD capable, but in this case I am sending a PCM because of Dirac, so the ultimate goal is to stream into Dirac VST 192/24 PCM

Quote from: dtc on July 03, 2020, 08:08:38 am

A DoP signal through WDM should play to your DAC as a 176 KHz file and be interpretted as such by your DAC, as long as all DSPs are off. Also make sure your volume is turned off or set to 100%. Any volume change would change the DoP encoding.

Look at Audio Path as you try these, just to be sure no changes are being made to the signal.

That might be a nice feature (essential saying that JRiver WDM is bit perfect), but as I mentioned above I do need a PCM conversion because of the room correction software

michael123 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:19:37 am »

Quote from: Hendrik on July 03, 2020, 08:05:21 am

No, 192kHz is already pushing it, more data is not going to make the driver happy.

What do you mean?
Even if I have super duper Core i7?

if that's a configuration issue, let us to decide, same as we have lot of things to configure for video playback

I think it may help to resolve many issues like the one I have

I just now stuck between two conversions and I can assure on Roon forum there is similar response.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #12 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:24:58 am »

It's probably not an issue of how fast your hardware is, but a "driver in Windows" type of limitation. If I had to guess, going by what Hendrik said above, perhaps if you send too much data (beyond 192 kHz) the driver (and the Windows driver model itself) simply can't handle it so it just gives out or crashes or errors out? Maybe it starts popping, dropping out, etc. or something like that?

It sure sounds like Windows' driver "system" just can't handle it.

michael123 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:29:38 am »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on July 03, 2020, 08:24:58 am

It's probably not an issue of how fast your hardware is, but a "driver in Windows" type of limitation. If I had to guess, going by what Hendrik said above, perhaps if you send too much data (beyond 192 kHz) the driver (and the Windows driver model itself) simply can't handle it so it just gives out or crashes or errors out? Maybe it starts popping, dropping out, etc. or something like that?

Never wrote sound drivers, wrote other drivers though.
What's the difference between JRiver WDM driver and the other driver sending DXD & DSD512 to the DAC?

dtc · « **Reply #14 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:34:14 am »

So we will take DoP through WDM off the table, since it seems you do not really want that.

If a 192 KHz Roon file plays fine through the WDM but a DSD file converted to 192 Khz PCM does not play correctly throught WDM, then it seems like there may be a timing problem because of the Roon conversion or the conversion may be affecting the CPU enough that the WDM is having problems. You might try using 176 KHz rather than 192 KHz, assuming your ~~take~~ DAC accepts 176 Khz.

You could try converting the DSD files to 176 KHz or 192 KHz files in Roon and then play those files through the WDM.

michael123 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:40:14 am »

Quote from: dtc on July 03, 2020, 08:34:14 am

So we will take DoP through WDM off the table, since it seems you do not really want that.

I thought in this case it will be possible to perform a conversion to PCM (or any DSP action) inside JRiver

Quote from: dtc on July 03, 2020, 08:34:14 am

If a 192 KHz Roon file plays fine through the WDM but a DSD file converted to 192 Khz PCM does not play correctly throught WDM, then it seems like there may be a timing problem because of the Roon conversion or the conversion may be affecting the CPU enough that the WDM is having problems. You might try using 176 KHz rather than 192 KHz, assuming your take accepts 176 Khz.

You could try converting the DSD files to 176 KHz or 192 KHz files in Roon and then play those files through the WDM.

Might be, that's why I set a delay parameter in JRiver.
The point is that it sometimes works, and I remember the times when it mostly worked

Hendrik · « **Reply #16 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:40:42 am »

Quote from: michael123 on July 03, 2020, 08:29:38 am

What's the difference between JRiver WDM driver and the other driver sending DXD & DSD512 to the DAC?

One sends it to the hardware, another to a full application doing potentially expensive processing on it. There is a large difference.
The higher the rates, the more likely you are to get issues, so we'll likely stick to the "normal" rates.

Quote from: michael123 on July 03, 2020, 08:40:14 am

I thought in this case it will be possible to perform a conversion to PCM (or any DSP action) inside JRiver

That is not possible. WDM input has to be PCM, since thats what our audio engine expects to receive. WDM is not designed to receive a bitstream of any kind.

dtc · « **Reply #17 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:45:38 am »

Quote from: michael123 on July 03, 2020, 08:40:14 am

I thought in this case it will be possible to perform a conversion to PCM (or any DSP action) inside JRiver

You can not convert DoP to PCM or apply DSPs to DoP. The DoP format has to go directly to the DAC.

michael123 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:48:24 am »

Quote from: dtc on July 03, 2020, 08:45:38 am

You can not convert DoP to PCM or apply DSPs on a DoP. The DoP format has to go directly to the DAC.

That's the feature I am asking for - convert it before feeding into VST

dtc · « **Reply #19 on:** July 03, 2020, 08:54:47 am »

Quote from: michael123 on July 03, 2020, 08:48:24 am

That's the feature I am asking for - convert it before feeding into VST

The nature of DoP is that you cannot apply DSPs to it. That is just a limitation of the DSD format, whether native or DoP. To apply DSPs to DoP, you would have to convert it to true PCM, apply the DSPs and then convert that back to DoP.

michael123 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 03, 2020, 09:05:47 am »

Quote from: dtc on July 03, 2020, 08:54:47 am

The nature of DoP is that you cannot apply DSPs to it. That is just a limitation of the DSD format, whether native or DoP. To apply DSPs to DoP, you would have to convert it to true PCM, apply the DSPs and then convert that back to DoP.

Whatever, my request is just having the ability to send a DSD signal in whatever form to JRiver as-is so i can drop these conversions in Roon.
JRiver knows how to decode DSD and how to encode DoP, so I don't understand where the problem is

JimH · « **Reply #21 on:** July 03, 2020, 10:00:23 am »

Why don't you just use JRiver to play your DSD files? It would probably be less trouble.

dtc · « **Reply #22 on:** July 03, 2020, 10:37:31 am »

Quote from: michael123 on July 03, 2020, 09:05:47 am

Whatever, my request is just having the ability to send a DSD signal in whatever form to JRiver as-is so i can drop these conversions in Roon.
JRiver knows how to decode DSD and how to encode DoP, so I don't understand where the problem is

Native DSD is at a very high sample rate (2.8MHz or greater) that the WDM cannot handle. Only specialized ASIO drivers provided by the DAC vendors can handle though high sample rates. So, Native DSD is out for WDM.

To apply DSPs to DoP, the DoP would have to undergo a DoP to PCM conversion. That is a highly unusually case and is not something JRiver is likely to spend any time on. Yes, a DoP to PCM conversion is theoretically possible - just don't expect it to be implemented. DoP is a format meant to be handled by the DAC, not by a player.

So, either do the DSD to PCM conversion in Roon or play the files from within MC.

michael123 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 03, 2020, 10:43:42 am »

OK, then back to the bug

JimH · « **Reply #24 on:** July 03, 2020, 10:46:37 am »

There is no bug.

dtc · « **Reply #25 on:** July 03, 2020, 11:18:06 am »

Do the 96 Khz and 192 Khz Roon DSD converted signals play OK when Roon sends them directly to the DAC, without going through JRiver?

michael123 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 03, 2020, 11:24:32 am »

Quote from: dtc on July 03, 2020, 11:18:06 am

Do the 96 Khz and 192 Khz Roon DSD converted signals play OK when Roon sends them directly to the DAC, without going through JRiver?

Yes

dtc · « **Reply #27 on:** July 03, 2020, 11:45:06 am »

Sounds like a possible problem with WDM.

michael123 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 03, 2020, 11:48:08 am »

Quote from: dtc on July 03, 2020, 11:45:06 am

Sounds like a possible problem with WDM.

Yep
How can I move from here?

Who is the developer, Hendrik?

JimH · « **Reply #29 on:** July 03, 2020, 12:39:53 pm »

It's not at all clear there is a WDM problem. We're not going to chase this.

Please find a way that works for you. Use Roon to do what you want if necessary.

Testing with a different DAC might give you a clue.

michael123 · « **Reply #30 on:** July 03, 2020, 12:53:22 pm »

Doesn't matter, will look for other solution

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Author Topic: Sporadic noise via WDM driver for DSD (Read 2262 times)