Topic: 6 or 8 channel USB DAC for 24b/384kHz and DSD (Read 13661 times)

Jimbodiah · « **on:** May 20, 2019, 06:18:28 pm »

OK, so I know I can not be the only one looking for a USB multi-channel DAC to run a 3 or 4 way system and use the JRiver DSP options.

So far the only decent DAC that has 6 or more channels costs $4-5K and is just out of my budget. The Minidac u-dac8 is the other end of the spectrum and does not support DSD.

Are there any options around $1K out there?

madbrain · « **Reply #1 on:** May 20, 2019, 07:21:43 pm »

Lobby nVidia / AMD / Intel to allow DSD streaming over HDMI in their GPU drivers. Then use any used cheap $200 AVR as the DAC ... I'll sign the petition.

Jimbodiah · « **Reply #2 on:** May 20, 2019, 07:39:47 pm »

Not what I am looking for really.

I have a Marantz HD-DAC1 right now and would love something similar in 6 channels. Could stretch the budget a bit, but $4K+ just isn't an option right now.

madbrain · « **Reply #3 on:** May 20, 2019, 07:52:19 pm »

I think if you use any DSP options in MC, DSD content will get converted to PCM internally for processing. And then back to DSD possibly, but I'm not sure about that part. Even one conversion is expensive to do CPU wise for multi-channel, let alone 2. If you are always converting DSD source to PCM even once, you might as well use a 6 to 8 channel PCM DAC on the output side. There has got to be some available under $4-5K. I'm not sure what level of quality DAC you are looking for, but there are many USB or Firewire DACs in the < $1K range that will do 6 to 8 PCM channels. A lot of pro studios have moved to Thunderbolt now, so the old interfaces are cheap, especially used. Mostly out of support, though. But their DACs can sound pretty good still.

Jimbodiah · « **Reply #4 on:** May 20, 2019, 08:35:45 pm »

OK, good point. Sticking with just PCM for now, do you have any suggestions?

madbrain · « **Reply #5 on:** May 20, 2019, 10:22:57 pm »

Quote from: Jimbodiah on May 20, 2019, 08:35:45 pm

OK, good point. Sticking with just PCM for now, do you have any suggestions?

Really depends on the price point. I use this :
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Echo-AudioFire-12-FireWire-Interface-w-Issue-Audio-Fire-Twelve-U111425/273829442755?epid=2255325565&hash=item3fc181b4c3:g:hhkAAOSwlN9cydb3

Super cheap at $129 (and no, it's not mine).

Will do 12 x 24/96 if you are on PC. Or 12 x 24/192 if you are on Mac .

The drivers are unsupported at this point. The ASIO driver works fine on PC with MC 32-bit, not with MC 64-bit. WASAPI works with both MC 32 and 64 bit. I tried it a long time ago on a friend's Mac with a TB to Firewire adapter, and it worked also.

If your PC lacks Firewire, as most do, you need a PCI or PCIe card.

I use this controller :
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Syba-SY-PEX30016-3-Port-Firewire-1394B-1394A-PCIe-1-1-x1-Card-TI-XIO2213B-C/123733007756?epid=1500012103&hash=item1ccf0fdd8c:g:xhoAAOSw5LZcsKSm

Both of these sellers have 30-day return policies, and it's only $150 total . If you are on a budget, this is very hard to beat for this number of channels.

Firewire is a bit finicky on certain machines. You will want to turn off all power saving features in Windows and BIOS, and probably hyperthreading.

There are probably inexpensive USB options that work too, but I have never used any. I would have said Focusrite, but someone on the forum is having problems with one. Some interfaces have both Firewire and USB. MOTU has some too.

For example this one with far fewer channels is both USB2 and Firewire :
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MOTU-Audio-Express-Firewire-USB-Interface-FireWire-U119191/273845961525?epid=97029566&hash=item3fc27dc335:g:ZFwAAOSwVJFc2zbf

Most if not all of these are out of support by manufacturers now.

Mitchco · « **Reply #6 on:** May 21, 2019, 10:44:37 am »

Some members use: https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/audio_interfaces/ur_series/models/ur824.html
See: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,92374.msg636084.html#msg636084

I use a Lynx Hilo for a stereo triamp system with JRiver. Works pretty good.

madbrain · « **Reply #7 on:** May 21, 2019, 06:22:28 pm »

Quote from: Mitchco on May 21, 2019, 10:44:37 am

Some members use: https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/audio_interfaces/ur_series/models/ur824.html
See: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,92374.msg636084.html#msg636084

I use a Lynx Hilo for a stereo triamp system with JRiver. Works pretty good.

A friend of mine has a Hilo. He uses it on a Mac and it works with MC. I agree it sounds good. Not sure if it's worth the $3K.
How do you get it to work with triamps ? Isn't it a 2-channel DAC ?

Jimbodiah · « **Reply #8 on:** May 21, 2019, 07:20:03 pm »

No use to me.

Mitchco · « **Reply #9 on:** May 21, 2019, 09:49:58 pm »

The Hilo has 6 analog outputs... A used one in the US is about $1500. In objective testing on Gearslutz it comes out on top: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=13947046&postcount=1743 Sounds pretty good too ;-)

Jimbodia - the Steinberg USB DAC mentioned above has 8 analog outputs... a good rep and price. Then I don't know what you are looking for.

madbrain · « **Reply #10 on:** May 22, 2019, 02:24:22 am »

Quote from: Mitchco on May 21, 2019, 09:49:58 pm

The Hilo has 6 analog outputs...

Sure, it has that many outputs, but it's still only a stereo DAC, so I don't think it really helps the OP's requirements for 6 to 8 channels.

Mitchco · « **Reply #11 on:** May 22, 2019, 09:19:02 am »

Re: Hilo - you need to look at the specs: https://cdn.lynxstudio.com/go/wp-content/uploads/Hilo-Manual-20180612.pdf It is not just a stereo DAC. It has 8 digital channels with 6 analog outputs in which you can route whatever you want to. So that is 6 DAC channels. In my case, I use the Hilo for a tri-amped stereo - since 2012. Here I wrote an article about it in 2013: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/ca-academy/advanced-acourate-digital-xo-time-alignment-driver-linearization-walkthrough/ Also attached is a picture showing how I do it and use the 7&8th digital channels and ADC for measuring the system.

If the OP is looking to triamp a system, the Hilo AD/DA converter will work no problem. More channels, than the Steinberg is popular here with 8 channels. Of course Lynx Aurora, which has 8 or 16 DAC channels. Mertric Halo has 8, RME, etc., there are many choices, but for the price the OP is looking for, a used Hilo for 6 channels $1500 or a Steinberg for 8 channels (under $1000 I think, but look it up yourself ) would certainly do the job the OP is looking for.
Have fun!

pschelbert · « **Reply #12 on:** May 23, 2019, 03:45:07 pm »

Hi

I use RME UFX and UFX II which has 12 Channels AD DA and 2x8 in out Adigital (ADAT). its about 1900 USD

There is an 8 Channel interface, UCX which is about 1110USD.

Very stable and reliable interface (Drivers) and great rotung software (TOTALMIX).
I had before several competitive products and a lot of hassles.

I use it as recording, phoneo in, 8+2+2 crossover.

Stereo 4-way system (8Ch)
Stereo Surround (2CH)
Stereo Headphones (2CH)

Can daisy chain with other UFX, UCX

Manfred · « **Reply #13 on:** July 06, 2019, 05:23:02 am »

There is a list of multi channels DAC's with list prices in the NativeDSD Database on nativedsd:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rHcXP7PExksxZfkif3Rv2CT1Y_ESpNSv2b0nkKlBySk/edit#gid=0

Nickandnora · « **Reply #14 on:** July 12, 2020, 05:57:12 pm »

I’m surprised no one has mentioned the Okto Research DAC8 PRO. Fills the bill perfectly:

https://www.oktoresearch.com/dac8pro.htm

Only drawback is the wait. Mine took maybe three months from the time of order to the time of delivery. COVID related delays don’t help.

Kimota · « **Reply #15 on:** July 29, 2020, 11:35:51 am »

Quote from: Jimbodiah on May 20, 2019, 08:35:45 pm

OK, good point. Sticking with just PCM for now, do you have any suggestions?

Here's what I did to play back DSD multi-channel files for just $100 (the cost of a Raspberry Pi 4 plus a case):

Bought a Raspberry Pi 4 (4GB memory) and an enclosure - I also added a 2TB external disk to hold all my music files
Installed MC26 on the RPi4 and configured the audio output to play over HDMI
Hooked up the HDMI from the RPi4 to the input of a Marantz SR6013
Configured MC26 to decode and playback music in Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround Sound

In essence, the Marantz SR6013 is my DAC. I can now play back a DSD multi-channel file and get PCM 5.1 Surround Sound from my system. Awesome! I think it's decoding to 48Khz 64bit 6 channel audio, but I could be wrong. It's not bit-perfect DSD, but for a mid-range system that's just fine with me. Plus, the RPi4 does double-duty as my home music NAS/DNLA server.

madbrain · « **Reply #16 on:** August 22, 2020, 03:50:56 am »

Quote from: Kimota on July 29, 2020, 11:35:51 am

Here's what I did to play back DSD multi-channel files for just $100 (the cost of a Raspberry Pi 4 plus a case):
Bought a Raspberry Pi 4 (4GB memory) and an enclosure - I also added a 2TB external disk to hold all my music files
Installed MC26 on the RPi4 and configured the audio output to play over HDMI
Hooked up the HDMI from the RPi4 to the input of a Marantz SR6013
Configured MC26 to decode and playback music in Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround Sound
In essence, the Marantz SR6013 is my DAC. I can now play back a DSD multi-channel file and get PCM 5.1 Surround Sound from my system. Awesome! I think it's decoding to 48Khz 64bit 6 channel audio, but I could be wrong. It's not bit-perfect DSD, but for a mid-range system that's just fine with me. Plus, the RPi4 does double-duty as my home music NAS/DNLA server.

So sad that the Pi4 can't just transmit DSD over HDMI. Your SR6013 could decode it. SACD has been out over 20 years ! I don't understand why it's taken so long and there are still no devices that support this other standalone SACD and Blu-ray players.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #17 on:** August 22, 2020, 06:21:53 am »

I honestly wouldn't expect to see any computer support DSD over HDMI as it's not possible to get DSD over HDMI working from any computer whether it be a PC, Mac, Raspberry Pi, etc.

Quote from: madbrain on August 22, 2020, 03:50:56 am

SACD has been out over 20 years ! I don't understand why it's taken so long and there are still no devices that support this other standalone SACD and Blu-ray players.

It would make sense if SACD discs could be read on a computer via an attached optical drive that supports SACDs, but this has never really happened with any commercially available optical drive for a computer.

I hate to say it, but it's also because DSD is pretty niche and not that popular at all. Supporting DSD over HDMI from a computer would require driver support added by the graphics vendors (whether it be Nvidia, AMD, Intel, etc.) or support in the open-source graphics drivers (e.g. Mesa on Linux) or whatever is handling the HDMI output. Finally, there might be some issues implementing DSD support in drivers as it's owned by Sony/Phillips and a) adding support would require expensive licensing, which AMD/Intel/Nvidia isn't willing to do or b) anyone implementing it without licensing it could potentially be sued over it.

So that's why I don't expect DSD over HDMI from a computer to ever happen.

madbrain · « **Reply #18 on:** August 22, 2020, 02:27:33 pm »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on August 22, 2020, 06:21:53 am

I honestly wouldn't expect to see any computer support DSD over HDMI as it's not possible to get DSD over HDMI working from any computer whether it be a PC, Mac, Raspberry Pi, etc.

It's impossible currently, only because the device manufacturers haven't implemented the feature, for whatever reason. Those reasons have not been made public.

Quote

It would make sense if SACD discs could be read on a computer via an attached optical drive that supports SACDs, but this has never really happened with any commercially available optical drive for a computer.

There are several web sites that offer DSD music downloads also. Acousticsounds, NativeDSD, Sony. So, I don't think the fact that SACD has copy protection and can't be read on a PC optical drive is a good reason for video cards not to be able to transmit DSD.

Quote

Supporting DSD over HDMI from a computer would require driver support added by the graphics vendors (whether it be Nvidia, AMD, Intel, etc.) or support in the open-source graphics drivers (e.g. Mesa on Linux) or whatever is handling the HDMI output.

Yes. And it seems that it wouldn't be that hard to add the feature if there was a will. And AVRs have supported it for a decade +. DSD support was added to HDMI version 1.2 in 2005.

Quote

Finally, there might be some issues implementing DSD support in drivers as it's owned by Sony/Phillips and a) adding support would require expensive licensing, which AMD/Intel/Nvidia isn't willing to do or b) anyone implementing it without licensing it could potentially be sued over it.

Hard to imagine that just passing bits through the interface and flagging them correctly as DSD would require a separate license. At the HDMI level, all copy protection is handled by HDCP, which is already supported by all GPU vendors and most SOC makers for single board computers.
I did a bunch of Google searches and could find no evidence of any DSD licensing requirement. I think if we were talking about the SACD copy protection, you might be correct. But not DSD which is based on patents that are all long expired.

pschelbert · « **Reply #19 on:** August 22, 2020, 03:53:28 pm »

I just recommend to forget DSD and SACD. Its dated from 1999, old format. Never got any commercial importance and never will get any.

DSD and SACD are superceeded by PCM stored in flac format.

This is why you dont get high-quality multichannel ADC and DAC in DSD, its just no market for it.

For PCM you get plenty of high-quality multichannel DAC today.

Peter

Kimota · « **Reply #20 on:** August 29, 2020, 03:05:12 pm »

Quote from: pschelbert on August 22, 2020, 03:53:28 pm

I just recommend to forget DSD and SACD. Its dated from 1999, old format. Never got any commercial importance and never will get any.

DSD and SACD are superceeded by PCM stored in flac format.

This is why you dont get high-quality multichannel ADC and DAC in DSD, its just no market for it.

For PCM you get plenty of high-quality multichannel DAC today.

Peter

Ok, anyone wanting to sell their SACD collection to me for cheap, please let me know!

On the serious side: I'm hoping that all those legacy SACD multi-channel discs are converted to FLAC. But until then, I'll keep collecting the ones out there to add to my NAS. And DVD-Audio and Blu-ray Audio: same thing! If FLAC is the answer, where can I get hi-res multi-channel FLAC files to download? ?

JimH · « **Reply #21 on:** August 29, 2020, 04:56:47 pm »

Quote from: pschelbert on August 22, 2020, 03:53:28 pm

I just recommend to forget DSD and SACD. Its dated from 1999, old format. Never got any commercial importance and never will get any.

DSD isn't an old or obsolete format. It's well respected in audiophile circles.

Quote

DSD and SACD are superceded by PCM stored in flac format.

PCM is WAV with a different header. It's fine, but storing it in FLAC format is a little obscure. You'd be better off to save your audio in FLAC or APE or any lossless format.

To say PCM superceded DSD is inaccurate.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #22 on:** August 29, 2020, 06:17:06 pm »

SACDs are still being manufactured and released too, so it might be a niche format at best, but it's certainly not a dead one.

pschelbert · « **Reply #23 on:** August 31, 2020, 04:08:08 pm »

Hi

DSD may be well honored in audiophile circles. So is Vinyl.

However real audio quality is another league. After rigorous tests I am sure PCM in flac-format is the winner. This is my personal experience. Your mileage may vary

My experience is that PCM is the highest quality technically. Sure it depends on the recording-studio. Everything can be messed up.

I onyl store flac in PCM. Even if I digitize Vinyl.

DSD seems to be a hype in the US. Here I cannot see any enthusiams for it.

Peter

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Author Topic: 6 or 8 channel USB DAC for 24b/384kHz and DSD (Read 13661 times)