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[Merlin GS]

- support for decoding DTS:X and Dolby Atmos to 16/32-channel PCM - not a JRiver issue

Of course it is a JRiver issue, the fact that they choose not to support it is directly  a JRiver issue.  There are many users who would gladly pay extra so that JRiver support and decode DTS:X, Dolby Atmos, and maybe Auro 3D

not a JRiver issue (and Dolby Vision, by definition is tone mapping)[/glow]
- tone mapping for HDR10+ - not a JRiver issue (HDR10+ is also tone mapping)

Not an issue, but not for the reasons given. JRiver supports MadVR one of the best tone mapping tools out there.

I know this has been mentioned before, but it bears mentioning. Proper support for Netflix and Amazon Prime.  I have read the excuses for not supporting it, but there are a number of cheap video machines that are able to do it just fine.  Obviously there is a cost to it, and again, there are many users that would happily pay the extra. 

BTW, the tone mapping available through JRiver is useless if one wants to watch Netflix or Amazon through JRiver because JRiver is not the app providing the streaming.  Because of the above I have not purchased any new updates since a couple of versions back, and I'm not alone.  Until JRiver addresses all or most of the above, there are many of us who will no longer support upgrades and no longer encourage others to consider purchasing it (since these are critical tool necessary for any video app with present consumers).

I'm sure may opine the above are not JRiver's fault or not applicable, but to paraphrase, you are entitled to your opinions, but not to your own facts as it relates to today's consumer of video entertainment.

Edits: To separate reply from quote     

[Awesome Donkey]

You might want to fix your post getting replies mixed up with the quotes.

BTW, actually, DTS:X and Dolby Atmos isn't a JRiver issue at all. There's some serious red tape around those. Also as far as I know there's no open-source decoders for DTS nor Atmos, and I doubt there will be any time soon.

Also Netflix and Amazon Prime, those are only accessible via a closed API only Amazon and Netflix provides to selected partners.

[Merlin GS]

BTW, actually, DTS:X and Dolby Atmos isn't a JRiver issue at all. There's some serious red tape around those. Also as far as I know there's no open-source decoders for DTS nor Atmos, and I doubt there will be any time soon.

That is irrelevant and not part of the concern raised. The fact that there is red tape just means there is more effort to achieve the task required.  To suggest that it is not a JRiver issue obscures the fact that JRiver chooses not to take the steps necessary to try and license DTS and Atmos.  It may be difficult for JRiver to provide decoding for DTS and Atmos, but at the moment there is absolutely no desire expressed by JRiver (at least the posts defending the stance suggest this) to attempt and provide these features.  Therefore, it is by definition a JRiver issue.

Also Netflix and Amazon Prime, those are only accessible via a closed API only Amazon and Netflix provides to selected partners.

Again, irrelevant.  Until JRiver shows it has made all attempts to be selected by the streamers in question as partners, then it is again, a JRiver issue.  BTW, Netflix and Amazon work with Google Chromecast (despite all 3 being strong competitors).  Netflix and Amazon are available in a number of cheap streaming devices, yet JRiver cannot provide it. I have no doubts there may be a cost associated with JRiver providing these streaming services internally (i.e. through its software app), but JRiver's failure to even attempt to pursue this feature is costing them money because many users refuse to adopt the program since streaming is such a critical part of their media consumption. 

As already stated, I like many others have not updated JRiver since a couple of past iterations, and judging by numerous posts at various forums decrying JRiver's failure to provide Netflix and Amazon streaming (and now Disney+ I can assume), this will be the feature that will determine JRiver's value to many of us. People's media consumption behaviour has changed dramatically in the past 4-5 yrs, but JRiver still operates as if streaming is a minor segment of media consumption. JRiver's choice how to proceed with streaming in the future will likely determine its relevance as a software app in media consumption.

[kotani]

- linear phase mode for Parametric EQ (or at least to some of its features such as low pass and high pass filters) - Can already be done with the convolution engine or VST plugin

I agree that it can be done, but here are some reasons why it's not optimal.

- VST Filters are processed in 32 bit, if I'm not mistaken, so for those relying on the DSP chain, this is not optimal.
- The native convolver 64bit engine is great, but has the following issues:
  1. Creating simple PEQ like linear filters requires programs like rePhase.
  2. Each minor change in the settings requires a new file to be created.
  3. There is the on going discussion whether creating the same filters at the respective sample rates being beneficial to the end result. This would require creating multiple sample rate filters for each PEQ per test config. You can see how tedious testing and tuning would be, even for a small change in the settings.

Here is an solution:
A check box option that changes the filter type to linear (FIR) for the PEQ part of the DSP that would use the native convolver engine in the background instead of the current IIR filter. The proper sample rate filters would be created and used at the appropriate time. This way, we could easily experiment with the difference in sound between IIR and FIR filters.

There aren't many areas to improve the sound quality in JRiver due to the great performance that it produces already. This would be a area where there could be big change. Especially for those using JRiver as a active XO.

[Awesome Donkey]

That is irrelevant and not part of the concern raised. The fact that there is red tape just means there is more effort to achieve the task required.  To suggest that it is not a JRiver issue obscures the fact that JRiver chooses not to take the steps necessary to try and license DTS and Atmos.  It may be difficult for JRiver to provide decoding for DTS and Atmos, but at the moment there is absolutely no desire expressed by JRiver (at least the posts defending the stance suggest this) to attempt and provide these features.  Therefore, it is by definition a JRiver issue.

DTS and Atmos are proprietary, and if JRiver were to reverse engineer both and add decoder/encoder support for both DTS and Atmos, they'd be sued into oblivion by DTS and Dolby over it. That's likely why it's not happening. JRiver is a US-based company, they can't just add decoders/encoders for proprietary formats like DTS and Atmos and DRM-encumbered services like streaming services, MQA, etc. without licensing it because it opens them to litigation if they were to do so. It'd be suicide for the company if they did.

Again, irrelevant.  Until JRiver shows it has made all attempts to be selected by the streamers in question as partners, then it is again, a JRiver issue.  BTW, Netflix and Amazon work with Google Chromecast (despite all 3 being strong competitors).  Netflix and Amazon are available in a number of cheap streaming devices, yet JRiver cannot provide it.

Terrible example. Amazon and Netflix develop and submit their own apps for the Chromecast platform, not Google themselves. Same applies to Android and Android TV. Even if Google did develop the apps themselves, they're a multi-billion dollar company which can easily afford the expensive licensing involved for this. I'm sure if Google and/or Amazon approached JRiver to integrate their streaming services within Media Center and covered the development costs, JRiver would probably consider it.

I have no doubts there may be a cost associated with JRiver providing these streaming services internally (i.e. through its software app), but JRiver's failure to even attempt to pursue this feature is costing them money because many users refuse to adopt the program since streaming is such a critical part of their media consumption.

The costs are for JRiver to consider and decide, and they'd decided it's not worth it. I doubt it costs them money not providing streaming service integrations within MC, if anything I've seen Jim mention a few times here on the forums that JRiver is doing just fine regardless.

[JimH]

Let's not speculate about lawsuits, lest we bring one on.

[RoderickGI]

Netflix and Amazon are available in a number of cheap streaming devices, yet JRiver cannot provide it.

You do understand that the decoding in all those cheap devices is done in hardware, I assume?

That is how the copyright holders maintain control of their material. Any decoding functionality provided in software would be subject to abuse, and hence perfect copying of original material in digital form. Hence, piracy. That is why cheap devices support all sorts of streaming solutions, and software can't. At least, not without very restrictive controls and management, and probably not on a PC.

[stewart_pk]

You do understand that the decoding in all those cheap devices is done in hardware, I assume?

That is how the copyright holders maintain control of their material. Any decoding functionality provided in software would be subject to abuse, and hence perfect copying of original material in digital form. Hence, piracy. That is why cheap devices support all sorts of streaming solutions, and software can't. At least, not without very restrictive controls and management, and probably not on a PC.

If this is the case and it cannot be overcome then I think JRiver's future regarding video playback on a PC is looking pretty bleak.

[tij]

If this is the case and it cannot be overcome then I think JRiver's future regarding video playback on a PC is looking pretty bleak.

imho ... I don’t think so ... MC for me is for managing my own library of media that I ripped to HDD for access convenience (plus HiRes music that was bought online) ... and for faithfully reproducing those media for personal enjoyment

It was never about streaming ... native app for those is good enough for what it is

I can see Plex is drifting towards streaming ... and while doing so totally ignoring the part about personal library ... good luck to them

EDIT: regarding Atmos ... no media player can decode Atmos DTSX ... all of those just bitstream it to compatible receiver/TV/soundbar  ... and I don’t see it changing  ... especially for PC ... as PC platform provide a better environment for reverse engineering

[Manfred]

MC for Video is for me:

- Managing my movies, series & music concerts from German public TV - downloaded through Mediathek App (macOS & WIN)
- ripping my old DVD and BD's
- playing my Home Video stuff.

I am very happy with local video playback. Video (RO HQ) & Audio quality (DSD& PCM) is world class! ( I have compared music concerts as BD mkv rips on my local network compared to streaming)

Currently Streaming App's like Netflix & Amazon don't allow to integrate local content or the other way round MC could not integrate Amazon or Netflix.

It is like it is and my guess is that it will not change in the near future.

[TheShoe]

imho ... I don’t think so ... MC for me is for managing my own library of media that I ripped to HDD for access convenience (plus HiRes music that was bought online) ... and for faithfully reproducing those media for personal enjoyment

It was never about streaming ... native app for those is good enough for what it is

I can see Plex is drifting towards streaming ... and while doing so totally ignoring the part about personal library ... good luck to them

EDIT: regarding Atmos ... no media player can decode Atmos DTSX ... all of those just bitstream it to compatible receiver/TV/soundbar  ... and I don’t see it changing  ... especially for PC ... as PC platform provide a better environment for reverse engineering

quoted in its entirety as this sums up my reason for JRiver Media Center perfectly.  I use it to squeeze the absolute best out of the hardware I've spent tens of thousands on and the approaching 300TB of redundant storage.  Simply put, there is no other application on the Windows platform that will support that ability.    I've no use for streaming services in Media Center.  they are ubiquitous across every device and platform and easily accessed with a few simple clicks/gestures.  don't clutter Media Center with more code to manage and increase cost for licensing those services.

you are spot on re: Plex, but Plex will just be yet another trying to compete with, and likely failing to gain any market share, against Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, Hulu, and Youtube.  Not interested.  Use plex only to cover the lack of video playback in JRemote for iOS, that's it.  Literally the only reason we run Plex - which can play on any iOS device/Apple TVos device about any video format except 3D.  I really hope they can fix whatever isn't working and support at least MKV playback.  Plex/Emby/Infuse all do it just fine, so it's not impossible by any stretch.

Atmos and DTS:X decoding would be a problem for PCs since you would decode into > 8 channels and I'm not aware of any GPU drivers that will support that over HDMI regardless of whether or not the HDMI 1.x, 2.x specs support it.  Heck it was only last year or so nVidia finally started to support sampling rates that are not typical, e.g. 88.2.  So the problem is NOT with JRiver and it's far more complex than you think.