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[DmitryB]

I'm having problems playing some high-qualify DSF files, usually 256 and 512. The music plays ok in some parts and it others starts clicking. Most were downloaded from NativeDSD, but also Acoustic Sounds, etc. At first I thought there was just one faulty file, but they checked their master and no issues. So I just thought "Ok just one file." Then it starts happening with others. Not sure how to solve this problem. I thought maybe my computer has trouble keeping up with that size, but I'm a video editor and edit 4K footage in real time with no issues. Then I thought some newer version of MC might fix it, but it keeps happening. So any idea what to do? How to diagnose the issue and fix it?

Thanks!

I'm on an iMac Pro, Catalina 10.15.6. Latest version of MC. The music os on a G-Raid drive connected with USB-C.

[JimH]

This problem?
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,24031.msg828535.html#msg828535

Or are the files on a NAS?

Do lower bitrate DSF files play OK?

[DmitryB]

Jim,

No, I don't think that's the issue. I'm not getting drop-outs: it's clicks and weird music looping back onto itself. The clicks made me think at first that it was just a damaged file, but Native DSD checked their master and said it was fine on their end. I redownloaded - same problem. And then additional downloads as well, not just the one title. And only the higher DSFs. The lower bitrates play fine.

The files are on my own private external drive, on a RAID configuration (for backup incase a drive fails.)

[JimH]

Try moving a few to your local drive and playing from there.

[DmitryB]

Just tried 5 different files from the internal HD and no go. 

[Awesome Donkey]

Are you using DSD bitstreaming or using DSP Studio > Output Format > Output Encoding?

[DmitryB]

Awesome Donkey, I'm using this for all playback.

[Awesome Donkey]

You're converting everything (PCM and DSD) to DSD which JRiver Media Center does on-the-fly, which is one of if not the most resource intensive operation Media Center can do. It is worth pointing out that all conversions you're doing via Output Formatting are a lossy conversion and not a lossless conversion (and all DSD to DSD conversions you're doing using that setting go through a PCM stage in the middle, so DSD > PCM > DSD). That's likely why you're having hiccups, because MC does the resource intensive conversion on-the-fly it sounds like the system's CPU isn't actually fast enough to keep up with it, so you have issues with clicks, stuttering, etc. This is usually confirmed if lower DSD (e.g. DSD64 aka 1xDSD) works without issues. The higher the level of DSD (especially if it's multichannel) for the Output Formatting conversion, the more CPU/resource intensive it'll be.

If you were bitstreaming DSD files and not converting everything to DSD, you'd probably be fine.

[DmitryB]

Awesome Donkey, thanks for that explanation! Do you recommend choosing "None" as the setting? When I have "None," the DSDs are played back as PCMs on my DAC (Teac NT-503).

[Awesome Donkey]

Yes, set None for Output Encoding and enable DSD bitstreaming instead. That way DSD files will be sent as-is (with no conversion) to your DAC to decode, and PCM files won't be converted to DSD.



More info here: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD

[DmitryB]

Something weird is happening now: I can't hear the DSF files at all. It's playing, but no sound. I can listen to FLACs and SACDs. But DSFs the audio defaults back to the computer audio instead of going through the DAC.

[Awesome Donkey]

Make sure a) system and MC volume is set to 100% and b) open the Audio MIDI Setup app in macOS and set it to the highest bit-depth and sample rate available for your DAC. That's a requirement for some DACs in macOS to get DSD bitstreaming working.

[DmitryB]

So, some DSFs, including 256 and up, play with the DSD setting. And some do not. If I switch back to "None," they play. I've tried reimporting them back and that doesn't fix it. MIDI automatically switches to the highest setting when the DAC is turned on. And volume is up on everything...

[DmitryB]

Just realized that the DSF files where the sound will not go through the DAC are 256 and larger. DSFs 128 work fine. So how come 256 and up will not go into the DAC in the DSD mode? Is this a DAC compatibility issue?

[Awesome Donkey]

Well, macOS only supports DoP for DSD bitstreaming, so perhaps your DAC doesn't support a bit-depth/sample rate high enough for DoP with DSD256 and higher to work?

[DmitryB]

Does it make sense that I can play these large bit DSFs with the "None" setting as it filters it to PCM?

Should I just convert them to lower bit DSFs or DXD?

I'm on Teac NT-503 and this is what the Teac web-site includes:

[DmitryB]

Awesome Donkey, you've been very helpful! Any suggestions on this last point (above?)

And incidentally, I'm in MC27 now, not 26.

[Awesome Donkey]

Personally, I'd avoid conversions, because all of them a) are lossy and b) have to go through a PCM conversion step in the middle, so DSD > PCM > DSD.

[DmitryB]

What are my solutions then for playing these files? I think the DAC should be able to play them, but something's not working when playing with the DSD setting.

[stefano_mbp]

Sorry for jumping in this thread ....
This what I know: on macOS you can play dsd only as DoP and you are limited to dsd256.
DoP is a dsd encapsulated in a pcm stream, and use the double of the throughput of a Dsd.
Ie.  DSD64 in DoP will be as a 176.4 pcm, DSD128 in DoP will be as a 352.8 pcm, DSD256 in DoP will be as a 705.6 pcm
Therefore your dac must be able to receive a pcm stream of that size but your Teac nt503 can receive up to 384 thus you are topped to dsd128.
Dsd512 is impossible to play on macOS , you must go with Windows

[Awesome Donkey]

What DAC are you using?

For DoP to work with DSD256 on macOS (which is the only way to get DSD to work on macOS) your DAC has to support the PCM sample rate that is equivalent, which off the top of my head for DSD256 would be 705.6 Hz (unless I'm mistaken). For DSD512 it'd be double that, which I'm not aware of any DACs that support sample rates that high and as far as I know JRiver Media Center only supports up to DSD256 in macOS because of it.

Like I said before, native DSD playback isn't possible in macOS via CoreAudio, only DSD via DoP. Windows and likely Linux too (via ALSA if the Linux kernel supports DSD with your DAC) will support both native DSD if there's an ASIO driver available and DoP via WASAPI.

If your DAC doesn't support DSD256 via DoP in macOS, you'll have to either a) find DSD128 and lower versions of your DSD audio tracks or b) convert your DSD256 and DSD512 content to DSD64 or DSD128, which is a lossy conversion (and has to go through a PCM step in the middle of the conversion, as mentioned above). Personally I'd go with option a) and (hopefully) enjoy the music.

P.S. It worked if you converted (like in the screenshot above of Output Encoding) to 2xDSD aka DSD128 which is likely the DSD limit of your DAC. You won't be able to play back those DSD256 or DSD512 files in macOS without converting them or replacing them from the source(s) with a DSD64 or DSD128 version. I would not recommend going back to using Output Encoding to convert everything to DSD128, as everything including PCM files will be converted too, and it's always a lossy conversion whereas the easier solution is likely getting DSD64 and DSD128 content if available to replace the DSD256 and DSD512 content.

[stefano_mbp]

Dsd512 on macOS is only possible with specific drivers and it seems that only exasound is delivering those for their products

[Awesome Donkey]

Dsd512 on macOS is only possible with specific drivers and it seems that only exasound is delivering those for their products

Yeah, those exaSound ASIO drivers for macOS that allows native DSD to work. However JRiver Media Center actually doesn't support that ASIO driver for exaSound DACs on Mac, so for DSD only DSD via DoP is available in JRiver Media Center on Mac.

I suspect those exaSound ASIO drivers may not work in macOS Big Sur and higher, due to changes and restrictions in regards to kernel extensions (I'm assuming it uses this, it may not). So even considering adding support for exaSound's ASIO on Mac may be a dead end, again, assuming they use kernel extensions for their ASIO driver.

[DmitryB]

Stefano and Awesome Donkey,

Thanks for all this info, it's very helpful. I'm attaching a screen grab of the Teac-NT503 bit depth breakdown from the Audio MIDI window. It looks like 705.6 is possible?? Though maybe Mac hardware doesn't go that high?

[Awesome Donkey]

DSD256 likely only works with native DSD on Windows with an ASIO driver. I'm also not seeing anything indicating it supports DSD512 at all, so it may not.

This is from what I gather from the DAC's info reading the manufacturer's site and manual for the DAC, and that's what it says for native DSD. For DoP it looks like its max supported is indeed DSD128. I have no clue why the Audio MIDI Setup app is reporting that it supports 705.6 kHz, when on the Teac-NT503's web page it says its max the Teac-NT503 supports is 32-bit/384kHz via USB.

Bottom line, unless you're using Windows with the ASIO driver for native DSD, you're going to be limited to DSD64 and DSD128 content on macOS.

[DmitryB]

 

And there are no consumer converters that can do lossless DSD to DSD (lower rate) conversions?

Or conversely if I upgraded my DAC, it should work as well? (Mac iOS would be able to play these bigger files with a 256-reading DAC?)

[stefano_mbp]

I don’t know any software dsd converter that can convert dsd rates higher than dsd128, anyway this would be the same Awesome Donkey described in previous posts, it would be a lossy conversion.
There are a couple of dacs that could do the job (they “could”, it should be better to confirm it with the producer), they are the Topping D90 and the Topping D30, the latter is cheap, according to the specs they should be compatible with DSD256 DoP.
They both received good reviews
Here the Topping web pages
.
https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/topping-e30-dac-ak4493-xu208-32bit-768k-dsd512-touch-operation-with-remote-control-hi-res-decoder
.
https://shenzhenaudio.com/collections/decoder-dac/products/topping-d90-ak4499-ak4118-full-balanced-dac-bluetooth-5-0-dsd512-hi-res-decoder
.
and here you can find the reviews
.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-e30-dac-review.12119/
.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-d90-balanced-usb-dac-review.10519/

[DmitryB]

Thanks guys! I'll probably have to upgrade the DAC even though this Teac is pretty great overall.

[Awesome Donkey]

And there are no consumer converters that can do lossless DSD to DSD (lower rate) conversions?

Not possible I'm afraid. All conversions involving DSD (DSD to PCM, PCM to DSD and DSD to DSD) are all lossy conversions. Furthermore DSD to DSD conversions have a PCM conversion step in the middle, so it'd be more like DSD to PCM to DSD, which of course is a lossy conversion.

There are a couple of dacs that could do the job (they “could”, it should be better to confirm it with the producer), they are the Topping D90 and the Topping D30, the latter is cheap, according to the specs they should be compatible with DSD256 DoP.

I use the Topping D50s and it's capable of DoP with DSD256 (including on macOS with JRiver Media Center for Mac, which I've tested).

[DmitryB]

Thank you guys for all the help. I'm looking at the RME ADI-2 DAC FS, which is a little pricey, but getting great reviews online.

[DmitryB]

Just to finish this off, got the RME this afternoon (I live across the street from B&H in NYC, so it has its perks). And the files play! And this DAC sounds incredible (though its menu system is incomprehensible.)

Thanks so much for all the help figuring this out!

[Staticfrost]

Hi.

Hope someone can help here.

I have JRiver 27.  I have everything set up for DSD file playback and my DAC handles native DSD.

For some reason ...when I play a DSD file...JRiver is playing the files 2x faster.

Any thoughts?

PS: This is also happening on JRiver 28

[JimH]

More details please.  Connnection type, conversion, OS, etc.

[Awesome Donkey]

If you're using macOS, do know that with CoreAudio only DoP works, not native DSD. Just make sure DSD bitstreaming is enabled and don't use the DSP Studio > Output Format > Output Encoding setting.