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Author Topic: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA  (Read 5916 times)

tzr916

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IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« on: November 23, 2020, 09:47:41 am »

Wasn't sure which sub-forum to put this in, but I just wanted to share something I learned today about DLNA. Maybe this can help someone out there, maybe some people are already aware of this. If you want to skip the long version:

If you use, or plan to use, a managed switch in your home network, be sure you turn IGMP Snooping OFF because it may result in missing DLNA devices and/or misbehaving controls/apps like JriverMC. It was turn ON by default in my Netgear ProSafe GS116Ev2 Switch.

The full story:
For years, I have successfully been running 200Mbps internet through a TP Link router and a Netgear 16port Gb switch. All my media server equipment is hardwired through the Netgear switch - MC Server PC, network Tv Tuners, MC Clients, Android Tv, AVR, etc. I recently signed up for 1Gb internet service, so it was time to upgrade my TP Link router. After some research I got a Netgear R7800 so that I could get higher wifi speeds on laptops/mobile devices/etc.

Setup of the new router went fine, set all my usual static IP's, all my wifi ssid/passwords, etc... For several days the MC Server, Clients, and tv recordings were all working as usual, overall the internet was faster, and accessing machines/devices via browser/IP/remote desktop was all good. But then I noticed that the "Denon AVR" app on my phone was no longer able to find my AVR and when I tried the "Android Tv" app on my phone it could not find my Sony Tv. Next, I looked at my MC Server and discovered the AVR, Tv, and one of my SD network tuners were no longer showing as DLNA devices! I tried all sorts of reboots and unplugging of power cords and network cables, sometimes the AVR or Tv or Tuner would show up in MC right after but would soon disappear.

I was stumped, so I turned to google and found many posts about Netgear and DLNA, most were about "ReadyShare" a feature on these routers, but a few were regarding home network DLNA devices not being accessible. One post in particular was regarding a Netgear ProSafe Switch, missing DLNA devices, and the IGMP Snooping setting in the Switch. Hmm interesting, all my equipment is running through a ProSafe switch. So I turned IGMP Snooping OFF in my switch (it was ON by default), rebooted the Switch, rebooted all devices, and set PC's back to Private Network. Amazingly, all my DLNA devices now showed up in MC Server PC, I was now able to use the "Android Tv" app to control my Sony Tv, and the "Denon" App now recognizes my AVR.

Quite the journey, thankfully I am back in business! What I don't understand is how I've been able to function with IGMP Snooping turned ON for years, until I changed from a TP Link router to this Netgear router.

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JimH

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2020, 12:14:23 pm »

Thanks for posting that.
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stevemac

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2020, 04:19:03 am »

FYI - using Ubiquiti Unifi USG, switches and an AP, with multiple VLANs.  IGMP is enabled on for all VLANs (networks).  No observed issues with DLNA (multiple clients from different manufacturers, both wired and wireless).  Typically use them as DMP, but a couple used as DMR with JRemote / jRemote2 to control

To your point - wonder what is different with the Netgear? (sorry I no longer have one to test with)
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Mans

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2020, 04:32:12 am »

Greatday, hi Tzr916,

Fyi,
Same with Cisco Meraki gear.
Once i disabled IGMP Snooping my trouble with non-discovered DLNA disappeared.
Quote
Multicast settings
IGMP Snooping: Disabled
(IGMP snooping examines IGMP membership report messages to limit multicast traffic to the subset of interfaces on which interested hosts reside)
Switches/Stacks.   
Flood unknown multicast traffic: (Default Disabled) Enabled
Set multicast settings for another switch or stack
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jmone

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2020, 08:01:39 pm »

Yeah - I'm on Unifi gear and enabling ISMP Snooping makes stuff more stable for me.... Go Figure.
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RoderickGI

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2020, 04:47:45 am »

I have a single ethernet cable running from my router to a "Netgear GS105Ev2 – 5-Port Gigabit ProSAFE Plus Switch", to which my HTPC/MC Server and TV connect. I was hoping this may be a hint for my disappearing and unreliable DLNA Renderer appearances.

Alas, IGMP Snooping is turned off in the switch, so no joy.

Besides, most of my DLNA issues occur between my Client/Workstation PC and other devices. Although in trying to get anything to see the TV as a DLNA Renderer requires packets to go through the switch. Even the HTPC rarely see the TV DLNA Renderer, even though the TV talks (GET and POST packets) on the network all the time.

Oh well...
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

Mikhail

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2020, 02:57:28 pm »

turn IGMP Snooping OFF

It's very cool that someone finally figured out at least partially with this mystique.

Thanks a lot.
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stevemac

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2020, 11:29:25 pm »

@RoderickGI

What config do you have on the managed switch with regards to Spanning Tree protocols (STP, RSTP, auto edge port etc)

Might be a red herring, but a long time ago I had some DLNA devices being intermittently unavailable in MC.  I don't recall having the issue after the ports they connected to on a cisco managed switch were enabled for Port Fast.  Setting Port Fast was done to reduce the delay in network connectivity when devices were coming out of a sleep state.

Probably will not get a chance to test until next week, but will disable Port Fast on the switch port the TV connects to and see what occurs in MC

regards,

Steve
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tzr916

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2020, 07:49:24 am »

A few other things I discovered:
-On your (Sony) Android Tv locate the Network setting called "Remote Start" which allows the Tv to be turned On when in standby. This should help to keep the tv's DLNA alive even after powering it Off.
-On your router locate UPnP, of course be sure it's turned On. Next, it could help to decrease the "Advertisement Period" (mine was 30 min, I changed it to 10), and increase the Time to Live "Hops" (mine was 4, I changed it to 10).
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•OS on Crucial P5 Plus M.2 PCIe Gen4 •Tv Recordings on SATA 6TB WD Red Pro
•4 OTA & 6 CableCard SiliconDust Tuners
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RoderickGI

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2020, 03:18:59 pm »

My "Netgear GS105Ev2 – 5-Port Gigabit ProSAFE Plus Switch" doesn't appear to support Spanning Tree protocols. I don't see any settings for Fast Port either. I've just upgraded its firmware to be sure no functionality has been added. It is a pretty simple device, which I bought rather than a plain switch so that I could mirror and port and do some network analysis using Wireshark.

I have VLANs disabled, so there is no network segregation.

I think my issue is the rubbish ISP router I'm using, and when I get time I will see if that can be fixed.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

Scobie

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2020, 04:32:54 pm »

Quote
On your router locate UPnP, of course be sure it's turned On

I've always turned this off, for the small bit of convenience it provides it is potentially a real security issue.
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JimH

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2020, 04:39:25 pm »

I've always turned this off, for the small bit of convenience it provides it is potentially a real security issue.
UPnP locally shouldn't be.  UPnP from the outside world isn't a good idea.
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wer

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2020, 04:42:09 pm »

I think my issue is the rubbish ISP router I'm using, and when I get time I will see if that can be fixed.

This can be easily established. You said all the other devices are connected directly to the switch. Unplug the router from the switch, reboot the offending devices, and live without internet access for a while so you can observe. If the router is responsible for your problem, the symptoms will not occur while it is disconnected.
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tzr916

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2020, 04:54:00 pm »

I've always turned this off, for the small bit of convenience it provides it is potentially a real security issue.
Everything I've read says DLNA needs UPnP. Just a few examples:

https://www.linksys.com/ca/support-article?articleNum=138198
 "DLNA uses UPnP for interconnectivity so that the DLNA-certified devices such as Blu-ray Disc players, TVs, computers, smartphones, and tablets can find each other and communicate. DLNA also uses UPnP to control different devices."

https://deviceonline.net/review/technology/item/300-upnp-dlna
"The relation between UPnP and DLNA is that the digital network alliance is delivered from Universal Plug and Play protocol in order to normalize media interoperability."
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•OS on Crucial P5 Plus M.2 PCIe Gen4 •Tv Recordings on SATA 6TB WD Red Pro
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wer

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2020, 05:17:34 pm »

Everything I've read says DLNA needs UPnP.

This is misleading, in that it implies an operational requirement. Simply put, DLNA is a standard for devices to communicate using the UPnP protocol. If two devices speak DLNA, they are speaking UPnP, and they are self-sufficient within a broadcast domain for doing so.

DLNA devices will discover each other and operate over a single broadcast domain even if no router providing UPnP is present. The UPnP facilities available on some routers provide some extra functionality, but that functionality is not required for DLNA device communications on the local LAN.

EDIT: I should add, IGMP snooping on a switch should not disrupt UPnP/DLNA communications, unless it is improperly implemented. There are many improper implementations of DLNA, as has been demonstrated abundantly on these forums over the years, and there could be improper implementations of IGMP snooping, especially on low-end consumer devices.
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Scobie

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2020, 06:28:59 pm »

Yes as Wer has pointed out the UPnP functionality on the router is not related to the UPnP/DLNA comms required on your home network.

I believe it is used to allow programs and applications on your internal (home) network to automatically enable any required port forwarding - something you might need to do to enable communication from outside - and given UpNP on the router explicitly trusts your internal network, malware, trojans etc could potentially trick the router into opening and forwarding ports.

But bottom line that option on your router does not need to be enabled for DLNA devices to communicate and do what they need to do. I have disabled UpNP on my router, configure port forwarding manually when I need it and everything works well.
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RoderickGI

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2020, 09:38:39 pm »

This can be easily established. You said all the other devices are connected directly to the switch. Unplug the router from the switch

The TV and HTPC are on the same switch. I could test connectivity between those two.

But the real issues I see are between my Workstation and the TV, and my Sony mobile phone and the Workstation and TV. Naturally, the Sony must be connected to the router, and the Workstation is ethernet only. No wireless. I could use a second old slow switch to bypass the router completely though...

I shall no doubt test the network at some stage. Mostly I just play stuff on the HTPC to the TV via cable, or between MC on the Workstation and MC on the HTPC. Those connections are fairly reliable.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

Packer

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2023, 03:02:44 pm »

I had no issues with DLNA for years, while just recently a network player, which runs over Ethernet disappeared from the JRiver as a Dynamic Zone. All other players over WiFi were visible. Issue turned to be exactly IGPM Snooping that was active in 2 middle smart VLAN TP-Link switches. Disabled it on both switches as well as on the Asus AX88U router and the network player is again visible.

Thank you! I would not be able to discover this myself :)
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Manfred

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2023, 04:20:55 am »

I had no issues using DLNA with IGMP snoopping over the last 5 years. I use a LINKSYS 8-Port Managed Ethernet L2 Smart Switch in the Living Room. It's a difficult topic. Also the port to the router is configured as multicast router port. Router is a AVM FRITZ! Box 6591 Cable.
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eve

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2023, 04:13:03 pm »

I had no issues using DLNA with IGMP snoopping over the last 5 years. I use a LINKSYS 8-Port Managed Ethernet L2 Smart Switch in the Living Room. It's a difficult topic. Also the port to the router is configured as multicast router port. Router is a AVM FRITZ! Box 6591 Cable.

Yeah, it's super weird that IGMP snooping is causing problems for people IMO
It shouldn't.
Does anyone know why this might be happening?

DLNA works fine for me on a Cisco SG-300 with IGMP Snooping enabled. I don't use DLNA on a day to day basis but it definitely works.
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Manfred

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Re: IGMP Snooping on managed network switch is bad for DLNA
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2023, 12:03:19 pm »

It could be the Version - e.g the Dt. Telecom TV Service works only with version 3. And the Router must support the same version as the switch.
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