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[pmatkinson]

I run MC 27 in 64bit Windows 10 pro. I use an Astell and Kern AK70 MkII DMP in DAC Mode through a HiFi grade USB Cable to play to my system. I have noticed that the playback was prone to slight background irregularities (not sure what the right term is) For example on a sustained note there was a slight wobble? If I play the same direct from the AK70 player no wobble. I recently came across a simple fix. Moreover it improved the overall sound quality through the DAC. It involves changing the power settings in the USB root hub in Windows Device Manager. Find the USB hub you use with your DAC. For me I have a USB 3.0 PC Card installed so mine was the "Fresco Logic xHCI (USB3) Root Hub" open it and go to the Power Management tab and UNCHECK the "allow windows to turn off this device to save power". Job Done! No wobble and greater overall clarity and bass response. No idea why this works? Perhaps greater minds than mine can explain? Let me know if you have similar results peeps.

[DJLegba]

It would be interesting to see if this power setting is required when you use a standard USB cable. Many "HiFi" USB cables do not meet USB specifications.

[pmatkinson]

Greetings Legba

I don't think the cable itself figures in the audio dissonance. I have posted the specs below. It conforms to standard wiring for USB devices. The difference is only in the quality of the cable and its design brief to transport highly complex digital audio signals from A to B (USB Type A to Micro B, in this case) There is a bigger audiophile wrangle here where Data cables which (only) transfer a digital stream of 0's and 1's are not in the same Audiophile loop as Analog cables transferring music with all the transient harmonics etc.. that entails. Science says digital cable moving raw digital data makes no difference. But for me and my ears my $100 cable made a big difference. That slippery term "Soundstage" became explicable to me when I swapped to audiophile cable.

The problem seemed to be that Windows was monitoring the USB and this software intervention modified the integrity of the digital feed.  Back to the wrangle. If digital audio signals were simply data no problem! The monitoring lets the data get through okay. But. If the complexity of a digitised analog feed carrying all those pesky transient harmonics etc.. was being subtly modified by the software monitoring it? aka The Schrodinger's cat scenario (Wow! didn't see that one coming but it is apt) comes into play perhaps? In the final analysis Legba it did make a difference unchecking that box. But now I am a bit concerned over the wellbeing of a theoretical cat. 

best regards
Paul

[DJLegba]

Hi Paul. I am not trying to persuade you that your special USB cable does not make an audible difference for you. It is odd, however, that Windows would put the port to sleep when it is in active use. If my cat were simultaneously active and asleep I'd want to know why, and in this case there's a pretty simple test to see if it's due to the $100 leash.

[JimH]

pmatkinson,
I removed the marketing from your post.  Please don't perpetuate the myth about premium USB cables. 

[JimH]

Hi Paul. I am not trying to persuade you that your special USB cable does not make an audible difference for you. It is odd, however, that Windows would put the port to sleep when it is in active use.

I do believe it's possible.  In this case, Windows wasn't putting it to sleep, but Windows just checking for activity on the port might cause a very small change in timing.  Maybe.

[zybex]

USB data transfer works with data packets, with CRC and ACKs, much like TCP. Packet timing is affected by LOTS of things happening on the PC and target device, but it is entirely irrelevant as long as the destination buffer is kept fed. Playback timing is enforced by the playback device, not by the datarate of the USB stream.

Cable quality is also irrelevant, much like for ethernet: if the cable is of extremely bad quality or is damaged it will cause many packet retransmits (due to bit corruption and CRC fail), and eventually there's not enough data on the destination buffer causing your playback to stop or have very noticeable hiccups. It does not cause "wobbling" or any other subjective human perception bias. Data either flows or it doesn't.

I'm under no illusion I'll convince any skeptic here. Enough has been written about this, but humans will be humans.

Regarding the "allow windows to turn off this device to save power" option: Windows will only put the port to sleep if there's no traffic going on for a [short] while, AND if the attached device is not keeping the channel open. This option is known to cause issues with many devices such as Mice which are not fully USB2/3 compliant, and are unaware of the port going to sleep - so they don't keep the channel open. This may be the case with your device, though I don't know how it would cause "wobbling" ... I would expect very noticeable hiccups or repeats (due to buffer underruns), unless your DAC is doing some wave interpolation to mitigate missing data. Anyway, doesn't hurt to turn that option off.

[pmatkinson]

Apologies Jim for posting specs of cable. There was no intention of marketing just of replying to DJLegba question with full information.

 I do agree with your last post and it is essentially what I was meaning with my theoretical cat quip. That Windows monitoring the active port disrupts the free exchange of information thereby creating said "wobble" in the delicate complexity of the digital feed and thus the clarity of the music itself.

Hi Legba
Sorry for the unintentional marketing it was FYI and well ...unintentional. I swapped out the mythical chord brought down by the hand maidens of Zeus to this earthly domain with the little white one I charge my phone with. It worked fine and the aforementioned wobble was still absent. Jim's analysis in his last post and my own suspicion's that Windows noise generated when it takes a looksee at the active port 'maybe' needs the attention of greater minds than ours.

Thank you Zybex
You posted as I wrote the above. With all due deference my friend. You must bear the mantle of being the "greater mind". Apologies for the apotheosis (hope you don't mind?). I take away from your thoroughgoing explanation two essentials.

First. Jim and myself, being human, (Sorry Jim but there was always the possibility you were a bot) are sceptic's in our own right and we disagree about the cable thing. Which indeed you Zybex as an empirical arbiter have the definitive word on. A contention though as old as the old gods themselves. Apollo and Hephaestus, Parnassus or Lemnos. The Lyre or the Hammer. As you say humans will be humans so no surprise there?

Second and most important. Unchecking the box does no harm! So I refer you to my original post and say (now with the certainty of oversight by Zybex) "Let me know if you have similar results peeps?"

best regards and thanks
Paul

[Wheaten]

If checking the power thingy improves your quality, you should do it.

On the cable part. I am on Zybex's team.
Only bad cables that cause a lot retransmissions or CRC failures will result in a noticeable sound impact.
If the whole cable thingy was true, you couldn't go on internet, get data from a remote storage or even setup a connection to a NAS, as it would error out every time. There are 8 bits in a Byte and checks to validate what has been sent and received.

However it's a different story as soon as the signal becomes analog.
Here I "can" hear differences between a premium cable or a cheap one.
But even then, I can hear the difference in comparison. Put me in front of an unknown setup, with an unknown song, I doubt that I even hear if it's 320kb MP3 or Lossless.

[DJLegba]

Regarding the "allow windows to turn off this device to save power" option: Windows will only put the port to sleep if there's no traffic going on for a [short] while, AND if the attached device is not keeping the channel open. This option is known to cause issues with many devices such as Mice which are not fully USB2/3 compliant, and are unaware of the port going to sleep - so they don't keep the channel open. This may be the case with your device, though I don't know how it would cause "wobbling" ... I would expect very noticeable hiccups or repeats (due to buffer underruns), unless your DAC is doing some wave interpolation to mitigate missing data.

This is why I suggested trying a standard USB cable. The fancy cable may not meet USB specs and therefore the DAC + cable would not be fully USB compliant, even if the DAC itself is. I did not mean that different USB-compliant cables would (or could) affect the sound, as I agree with everything you've written.

[pmatkinson]

In regards to the premium audio USB cable I am using. I upgraded because of the length of cable required to connect to the DAP/DAC. The cable is 1.5 metre. By using a cable of such length for a DAC it is recommended that a premium quality cable was used. This led me to buy the cable initially. I have premium analogue interconnects throughout my setup, and as you say Wheaten, there is an audible difference by using premium analog interconnects. The USB did make an appreciable difference to the sound. After deploying the audio USB there was a noticeable broadening of the soundstage. I remember listening to the live recordings on Fleetwood Mac Mirage Deluxe in 24bit 96KHz and swapping the previous cable which itself was from an industrial server setup and of good quality. There was a noticeable difference and greater definition/ separation in the ensemble of instruments. The lead breaks were clearer and less entangled with the bass line and percussion. A more dynamic overall sound. If this improvement was due to the simple fact that the expensive cable had a lower overall resistance or the more exotic explanation of the cable manufacturer matters to me not at all. It sounded better.

As for the power thingy.
I have copied the instructions in full below. It came from a product support site so I will not name the source. There are other suggestions here too   

Change USB Root Hub Power Management settings:

Open the Start menu and type in “Device Manager”.
In the Device Manager, go to “Universal Serial Bus Controllers”.
Find “USB Root Hub” and right-click on it.
Go to Properties > Power Management/
Uncheck the option for "Allow the computer to turn off this device to save power".
Press OK.
Make sure to repeat this process for each USB Root hub in the Device Manager.

Disable USB Selective Suspend:

Right-click the Start button.
Click Search and type "edit power plan" in the Windows Search box.
Click "Change Advanced Power Settings" then scroll down to "USB Settings"
Click the plus (+) sign next to"USB Selective Suspend" to expand the options.
Click Disable.

Disable Exclusive Mode:

Right-click the Start button.
Click Search
Type Control Panel and hit Enter on your keyboard
Select Hardware and Sound > Sound and click on the Playback tab
Select your Audio Device from the list of audio devices.
Click Properties.
In the Properties window, go to the “Advanced” tab and uncheck the option to "Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device”.
Click OK to Apply the setting.
Back in the Sound window, click on the Recording tab and repeat steps 2-4.
Once complete, restart your computer for the changes to take effect

If you have any comments on the above procedures Zybex feel free your expertise is much appreciated.
For the purpose of full transparency I have listed my system below as Wheaten did in their post.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dell  E5510 i7 CPU M620 @ 2.67 Ghz - Arcam A19 FMJ - Abbey Road Moving)Air Monitor 2 core Speaker cable - Kef LS 50s - Astell and Kern AK70 Mk II - Audioquest Victoria 3.5mm to 3.5mm Jack Cable - AudioQuest Cinnamon USB Type A to Type B Data Cable - Koss ESP/95X - chord c line rca - Ariston RD80 sl - Linn Basic LV V - Sure M75CS

[zybex]

I know it sounds better to you But is it better, objectively? That's what double-blind ABX tests are for, to eliminate our subjective gray matter from the equation.

The 2 USB options might interfere with some older devices, so disabling them doesn't hurt and might fix some issues (not sound quality though). The Exclusive mode might be required by MC for some low-level/WASAPI play modes; with that option disabled you may be forcing MC/Windows to resample your tracks instead of playing at native rate, depending on your hardware. Others in this forum know more about this than me. Also, with exclusive mode enabled no other Windows sounds will play on that device when a song is playing, so that's nice.

[pmatkinson]

With reference to the Windows tweaks. All seems to be working well. The wobble was a relatively subtle effect. On the speakers it was hardly noticeable. When I listened on the Koss electrostatic cans though it was more to the fore and prompted me to seek a remedy.

The USB cable (3M not 1.5M btw) listening test was on the cans. The AK70 MkII has a dual DAC setup. Two of the highly regarded Cirrus Logic CS4398 chips. Dual DAC’s are known for having a greater Soundstage, better stereo separation and an overall clearer sound. They also require careful  implementation and a linear power supply is recommended. Astell and Kern have implementation well covered and; as it is powered by a battery, power is also sorted. With the cable the overall sound really was much improved. Bass clearer and punchy and mid-range crisper and well balanced. Soundstage though was the biggest improvement. Listening through the Koss cans to 24bit recordings, Fleetwood Mac, Norah Jones, Rebecca Pidgeon,  Mahler's 2nd and 5th Symphonies Dubussy Prélude À L’après-midi D’un Faune,,, really do sound better. The analog cable I have from the AK to the A19 amp is of very high spec and even has a built in battery powered cable conditioner. I really have endeavoured to get the very best out of the individual elements of my moderate cost HiFi setup. Regardless what the numbers say. I do understand the paradox of improving the signal to noise ratio of a data stream by running it through a posh cable. It's data! The terms are in themselves are mutually exclusive. It is Impossible!!

"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

Sorry to harp on Zybex. I'm with the White Queen on this one. We will not hammer this out I am afraid. But at least we can agree on one thing that we both want the bit perfect.

[zybex]

Hey, whatever works for you is good! Sound is mostly subjective, each person hears it slightly different. I understand your quest for perfection. Me, I'm lucky to have a lousy set of ears so I can enjoy mostly anything with a cheap-ass crappy setup 

Regardless what the numbers say.

... and there's where we disagree.

[kwingylee]

Can someone help me understand why unchecking the Exclusive Mode helps with sound quality? Mine are all checked right now...

[JimH]

Try a Google search for Exclusive Mode. 

[Awesome Donkey]

Not using exclusive mode means it's going through the Windows mixer and isn't a bit-perfect audio output.

[kwingylee]

Try a Google search for Exclusive Mode.

Not really helpful ....  myriad of opinions on google about the pros and cons its used, that is why I ask in a JRiver forum. What does the J River community think?

[JimH]

Add JRiver to your search.

[Extreme_Boky]

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Exclusive_Access

[kwingylee]

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Exclusive_Access

Thanks

[JimH]

https://lmgtfy.app/?qtype=search&q=exclusive+mode+jriver#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=exclusive%20mode%20jriver&gsc.page=1

[zybex]

I guess you wanted this one
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=jriver+exclusive+mode