Topic: MC 29 what are the audio improvements and new features (Read 11049 times)

RudieV · « **on:** February 11, 2022, 12:41:01 pm »

Got the email today to buy the new MC29 at a discount price. I like MC28 and I am happy we get regular upgrades. They install automatically but I never get any info what the contents are of those upgrades.

I upgraded from MC27 to MC28 without doing much research nor did I get any info when I did. This time again: All the information is about how to upgrade but nowhere do I see any info of improvements or new features in MC29 compared to MC28. I am only into audio and video improvements don't interest me so I would like to know on what I will be spending my money.

So, is JRiver going to give any info on improvements and new features or is this more of a 'subscription' or 'patreon' kind of situation?

I find that communication-wise JRiver is not very strong. They hide behind their wiki but why can't they like other companies have release notes for updates. If they have any info on the list of improvements and new features of MC29 then they hide it well.

murzat · « **Reply #1 on:** February 11, 2022, 12:52:10 pm »

Same...

BryanC · « **Reply #2 on:** February 11, 2022, 12:58:33 pm »

You can use the MC28 version in perpetuity, it's not a subscription model although a lot of users may treat it that way to get the latest features.

A list of new features will be added to this board in due time as they are still under development.

JimH · « **Reply #3 on:** February 11, 2022, 01:40:55 pm »

Quote from: RudieV on February 11, 2022, 12:41:01 pm

I like MC28 and I am happy we get regular upgrades. They install automatically but I never get any info what the contents are of those upgrades.

Changes are listed in the threads that announce each build. For MC28, take a look at them on the MC28 board.

JimH · « **Reply #4 on:** February 11, 2022, 01:43:15 pm »

For audio, we're working in the DSP area right now.

If you're not willing to bet on our success, just wait until later in the development cycle.

You could also learn more about our approach in this topic: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=81987.0

ths61 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 11, 2022, 04:02:18 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 11, 2022, 01:43:15 pm

For audio, we're working in the DSP area right now.

If you're not willing to bet on our success, just wait until later in the development cycle.

You could also learn more about our approach in this topic: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=81987.0

How about adding Linux 64-bit Float output support in Version 29 to retain 64-bit functionality ?

I would pay the master renewal price just for that single Linux feature upgrade to retain 64-bit resolution.

FenceFurniture · « **Reply #6 on:** February 11, 2022, 05:24:44 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 11, 2022, 01:43:15 pm

If you're not willing to bet on our success, just wait until later in the development cycle.

That's not the issue Jim - I think all experienced users have complete faith in the JR Team to deliver a fine product. It's more about knowing what's coming along. I suspect that virtually everyone uses MC for Audio, many probably only for Audio (me), and a very small few who do not use it for Audio.

So I have a suggestion which would be beneficial for both sides (the Punters, and JRiver). If you were to list the things that you are definitely working on now, and going to work on later (particularly with respect to Audio) then we can make a much more informed decision as to whether to jump on board with the early bird pricing. The benefit for JRiver is of course in cashflow, plus a much earlier indication of upgrade sales.

The last thing I want to do is to get on board early only to find out I didn't really need the upgrade because there was little in the way of Audio upgrades that were of interest to me, but plenty for other media.

It would also be good if the nag screen bidding me for a new version could turned off. When I have no intention of upgrading it is a real PITA.

JimH · « **Reply #7 on:** February 11, 2022, 06:23:44 pm »

Quote from: FenceFurniture on February 11, 2022, 05:24:44 pm

So I have a suggestion which would be beneficial for both sides (the Punters, and JRiver). If you were to list the things that you are definitely working on now, and going to work on later (particularly with respect to Audio) then we can make a much more informed decision as to whether to jump on board with the early bird pricing. The benefit for JRiver is of course in cashflow, plus a much earlier indication of upgrade sales.

We don't ever know what we'll be doing. Here's why:

Sometimes we get a bright idea. Often it comes from users like you.

Market conditions can change quickly. Amazon doing lossless streaming is a good example.

OS upgrades can break things. (Looking at you, Apple.)

We have a broad field of products now. They all have to work together and work well. That is harder than it looks.

The CEO is getting old. He makes a list and then he often can't find it.

Everyone is working at home now.

Financial opportunities may present themselves.

Audio features are pretty solid. We're working on some nice DSP additions. Unless we go barking after every audiophile idea that comes down the road, it's hard to imagine a lot of excitement. Fixing things that are broken is good though.

We will always work on providing better access to our development toolkit / API.

Maybe we'll be lucky enough to hire cncb.

DJLegba · « **Reply #8 on:** February 11, 2022, 06:39:34 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 11, 2022, 06:23:44 pm

Maybe we'll be lucky enough to hire cncb.

I've upgraded every year since I first bought MC in 2014. I was going to sit out the 29 upgrade but I'll definitely jump back in if you do manage to hire cncb.

JimH · « **Reply #9 on:** February 11, 2022, 06:58:04 pm »

Quote from: DJLegba on February 11, 2022, 06:39:34 pm

I've upgraded every year since I first bought MC in 2014. I was going to sit out the 29 upgrade but I'll definitely jump back in if you do manage to hire cncb.

Thanks for a laugh!

HTPC Videophile · « **Reply #10 on:** February 11, 2022, 10:32:58 pm »

Quote from: FenceFurniture on February 11, 2022, 05:24:44 pm

I suspect that virtually everyone uses MC for Audio, many probably only for Audio (me), and a very small few who do not use it for Audio.

Many of us here are "videophiles" too and look for both audio as well as video improvements so please do not make sweeping assumptions regarding others.

FenceFurniture · « **Reply #11 on:** February 11, 2022, 10:59:41 pm »

Quote from: Rajesh Singh on February 11, 2022, 10:32:58 pm

Many of us here are "videophiles" too and look for both audio as well as video improvements so please do not make sweeping assumptions regarding others.

I'm not sure why you bothered to point out that you fit perfectly into the first part of my "sweeping assumption" (in bold below). It's the second part that says Audio only!

Quote from: FenceFurniture on February 11, 2022, 05:24:44 pm

I suspect that virtually everyone uses MC for Audio, many probably only for Audio (me), and a very small few who do not use it for Audio.

ryudoadema · « **Reply #12 on:** February 12, 2022, 12:02:13 pm »

I may start using this for audio at some point, but for now and the last two years I use MC exclusively for 4k/hdr media on my projector. Of course the accompanying audio is important. Easier media congregation and ratings etc like kodi has for example are what i look most for personally.

ths61 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 12, 2022, 08:50:01 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 11, 2022, 06:23:44 pm

...

We will always work on providing better access to our development toolkit / API.

...

JimH,

Do you have a Linux version of your development toolkit / API ?

I downloaded the current SDK from https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSP_Plug-in_SDK and it appears to be Windows/COM only.

Does MC support VST[3] plugins in Linux ?

If MC can simply write 64-bit float to ALSA interfaces that publish their support, developers can write, maintain and manage their own Linux feature additions since [U/Li]nix platforms naturally operate on pipelines. No SDK would need to be provided and maintained by MC other than the 64-bit float writes to the published ALSA interface(s) (in addition to the existing data formats already writen).

Thanks much.

JimH · « **Reply #14 on:** February 12, 2022, 09:21:29 pm »

Look at MCWS (Web Services) on the DevZone page:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DevZone

ths61 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 12, 2022, 10:09:18 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 12, 2022, 09:21:29 pm

Look at MCWS (Web Services) on the DevZone page:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DevZone

What does a web service interface (for a stand alone unconnected machine) have to do with a Linux SDK, ALSA and/or VST[3] plugins ? Sorry, I don't see how this is related to my specific questions (unless your response was directed towards someone else's question(s)).

None of the documented functions on http://localhost:52199/MCWS/v1/doc appear to give direct access the the 64-bit float sample streams for each individual channel. The API set appears to be more oriented towards making remote control interfaces than stream processing.

All of the SDK Plugin sample code appears to use single precision floats (32-bit). If that is true, any signal processing that goes through the SDK Plugin(s) is NOT 64-bit double precision internal processing.

The code also references WAVEFORMATEX, but not WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE.

Mirlynn · « **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2022, 12:19:03 pm »

Quote

We don't ever know what we'll be doing. Here's why:

Sometimes we get a bright idea. Often it comes from users like you.

Market conditions can change quickly. Amazon doing lossless streaming is a good example.

OS upgrades can break things. (Looking at you, Apple.)

We have a broad field of products now. They all have to work together and work well. That is harder than it looks.

The CEO is getting old. He makes a list and then he often can't find it.

Everyone is working at home now.

Financial opportunities may present themselves.

Audio features are pretty solid. We're working on some nice DSP additions. Unless we go barking after every audiophile idea that comes down the road, it's hard to imagine a lot of excitement. Fixing things that are broken is good though.

We will always work on providing better access to our development toolkit / API.

Maybe we'll be lucky enough to hire cncb.

As a developer and 20 year IT professional, I fully understand where you are coming from. It's difficult to definitively say what you are going to deliver for the reasons listed. Difficult is the key word though - not impossible. A roadmap can be provided with an explicit statement to the user base that says something about "No guarantees". You guys know what you are working on and what sorts of things you are considering internally. This information could be provided so that all the devoted JRiver users have at least a hint of what MIGHT be coming. This is definitely doable and I believe is what many of the users are asking for. Will there be some people who will say.... "well, you said you were going to come out with X but we haven't seen it"? Undoubtedly yes. Those people are unavoidable but I would suggest they are also the 'edge' cases. I can't speak for everyone but I suspect that a fair amount of users would really find any information on upcoming features/functionality very useful especially the lack of information leaves everyone to consider spending hard earned money on something they may not want or need.

I have been an avid user since V16 (now going on 11 years). I tell anyone who will listen about the application and how awesome it is. I don't want anything I say here to be construed as negative. There are ways of being able to communicate upcoming features to the end users without a "build it and they will come" approach. I find this entire thread interesting for a variety of reasons. That said, I wanted to provide another voice and/or suggestion on how to approach this topic to help improve new and existing sales while giving the established user base a little something to go on.

Almost every year that goes by, and your prerelease offer comes out, I always ask myself... "is it worth it?" Truth be told, I never know because you guys historically have always been hush about your development cycle. I have blindly supported the product and paid the upgrades (some early and some later). I believe in the product whole heartedly and want to support it. That said, I, along with many others, would truly appreciate a little more visibility into your roadmap. Money is tight and it's getting tighter.

All that said, I will be looking forward to what MC29 has to offer.

RudieV · « **Reply #17 on:** February 13, 2022, 03:37:23 pm »

Thanks Mirlynn,

I am happy with your positive support. I also work in IT and we make roadmaps and plan things in advance. Of course some functionality is being postponed or even cancelled but if a product is due in April then there must be epics and stories now to work on, including the testing. I can't imagine that JRiver manages to make a roadmap, create epics and stories, build and test in 2 months. If so, then I understand that their CEO is premature old and hides his lists

JimH · « **Reply #18 on:** February 13, 2022, 04:09:34 pm »

Somewhere I wrote about agile development. Maybe in the business model topic:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=81987.0

A few people here and some recently departed think that I'm an idiot, but hey, we've been doing this since 1998 and I started the business in 1981. I'm pretty proud of what we've done.

Detailed plans are for big stale corporations. It probably works for simple projects, and MC is not one.

We waltz with elephants here and when they move, we feel obliged to also do so.

dfortney · « **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2022, 04:25:56 pm »

I'd really like to see some Apple Script support for the Mac version. Basic dictionary like play, pause, minimize window, close window, quit, etc...

tzr916 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 14, 2022, 08:18:49 am »

Like to see JR solve the Dolby AC-4 audio in ATSC 3.0 broadcast tv stations. Video in ATSC 3.0 works in MC but audio is silent. Currently have to use SiliconDust solutions to watch ATSC 3.0 tv stations.

https://trac.ffmpeg.org/ticket/8349

https://mailchi.mp/245e1f09021d/hdhomerun-apps-now-support-atsc-30-audio-on-more-devices

Financisto · « **Reply #21 on:** February 14, 2022, 12:59:35 pm »

My 5 cents.

I use JRiver from version 19 on high-end equipment for music (stereo!) exclusively. I noticed a kind of nice sound quality improvement from 19 to version 23, but after until version 25 where was no addition of sound quality. Now I'm considering to upgrade. My suggestion is to add improvements on this side, because sound quality is what we love in JRiver.

So thank you for a great product, but there is a room for improvement on your strong side

. "We don't need those bell and whistles with video!"

RudieV · « **Reply #22 on:** February 14, 2022, 02:01:39 pm »

@ financisto

I fully support you on this. The only reason why I bought JRiver was the sound quality. I have a medium to high hifi system and trying to squeeze out as much quality as I can. JRiver is at the base of my system which feeds into a DDC and then a DAC. The better the quality that goes into the DDC the better the rest will sound.

Good luck to the JRiver team to get the best sound out of Windows.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #23 on:** February 14, 2022, 02:38:21 pm »

Other than DSP and VST-related audio tweaking things and stuff like that, I don't know how you can get any better than bit-perfect output of audio. *shrugs*

kr4 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 14, 2022, 03:19:44 pm »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on February 14, 2022, 02:38:21 pm

Other than DSP and VST-related audio tweaking things and stuff like that, I don't know how you can get any better than bit-perfect output of audio. *shrugs*

More aggressive marketing.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #25 on:** February 14, 2022, 03:28:38 pm »

I like it!

Seriously though, audio support in JRiver Media Center is pretty mature, which at this point most audio improvements will come from improvements to the VST plugins (which VST3 support landed in MC28) and DSP which are being worked on right now for MC29. Outside of the audio tweaking, filtering and plugins side of things I don't see how JRiver can improve upon the core audio engine which already allows bit-perfect audio playback.

mattkhan · « **Reply #26 on:** February 14, 2022, 03:49:47 pm »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on February 14, 2022, 03:28:38 pm

Outside of the audio tweaking, filtering and plugins side of things I don't see how JRiver can improve upon the core audio engine which already allows bit-perfect audio playback.

I don't think this is true

It's a question of accessibility/useability on the one hand (DSP studio could do a lot here) and performance on the other (MC tends to need relatively big buffers to manage various situations)

dtc · « **Reply #27 on:** February 14, 2022, 04:36:21 pm »

HQPlayer takes a different approach and does a lot of processing. It basically takes many of the algorithms used in DACs and moves them to software. The user gets to choose which options to use. Its like having multiple DAC designs available to you in software. It includes Delta-Sigma conversions with a range of modulators and output filters. Here is a link to some of the options

https://www.signalyst.com/consumer.html

As I said, it is a very different approach than bit perfect audio with some DSPs. My impression is that JRiver does not want to get into that level of processing. But it does show that there are some pretty sophisticated changes to the audio engine that could be made.

JimH · « **Reply #28 on:** February 14, 2022, 04:45:51 pm »

Quote from: dtc on February 14, 2022, 04:36:21 pm

HQPlayer takes a different approach and does a lot of processing. It basically takes many of the algorithms used in DACs and moves them to software.

I don't think DAC emulation is a business we want to be in.

dtc · « **Reply #29 on:** February 14, 2022, 04:53:02 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 14, 2022, 04:45:51 pm

I don't think DAC emulation is a business we want to be in.

Understood. It is a very specialized approach. I have no expectations that you will move in that direction and anyone who wants that approach already has an option. I just wanted to point out that there are audio engine options that could be done other than typical DSP changes.

thorsten · « **Reply #30 on:** February 15, 2022, 04:09:01 pm »

Hi all!

As a veteran user of MC for HighEnd Audio AND Highend Video, I'm not leaning towards one or the other side of "do it better". I'm just eager for every new stuff.

But: I really miss this specific thread by JRiver, what will come up!
A simple "What's NEW in MC29" like there was in What's NEW in MC28, MC27, MC26 and so on. This will IMHO reduce a lot of unefficient threads...

Just my 2 cents

pompon · « **Reply #31 on:** February 17, 2022, 11:27:21 am »

Quote from: dtc on February 14, 2022, 04:36:21 pm

HQPlayer takes a different approach and does a lot of processing. It basically takes many of the algorithms used in DACs and moves them to software. T

IMO, it's a bad idea to stack inside DAC filter + software filter.
It's like try to make a better photo and take jpg processed photo as source and not raw!

Eneroscu · « **Reply #32 on:** February 21, 2022, 07:08:41 pm »

I am also an exclusive audio user, I only use MC for this. I think there are still improvements in this section, for example having different algorithms to sample rate convert. This would give me a good reason to update MC. In an act of faith, I will pay for the upgrade in advance.

CadErik · « **Reply #33 on:** February 21, 2022, 09:56:07 pm »

Quote from: Eneroscu on February 21, 2022, 07:08:41 pm

I am also an exclusive audio user

Access to content (aka streaming services) are not in focus.

kkloh · « **Reply #34 on:** February 22, 2022, 03:38:25 am »

Quote from: JimH on February 11, 2022, 01:43:15 pm

For audio, we're working in the DSP area right now.

If you're not willing to bet on our success, just wait until later in the development cycle.

You could also learn more about our approach in this topic: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=81987.0

Since you are working in the DSP area, please update the Dolby Digital Output format (up-mixer of stereo to surround) to make it 7.1 or even Atmos capable. You would agree that this up-mixer has remained stagnant for ages. I look forward to having this upgrade to make my moving to your new version 29 worthwhile. Many thanks

dziemian · « **Reply #35 on:** February 22, 2022, 03:53:41 am »

Regarding audio improvements, I am on the other side. There are many excellent audio players out there but almost none of them can offer full HTPC capability. I am using JRiver because I can both listen to my music collection and watch movies.

Humbledore · « **Reply #36 on:** February 23, 2022, 06:59:28 am »

As an MC 25 user, I am wondering if MC 29 offers a solution to get Cloudplay files analyzed?

The absence of volume leveling makes listening to Cloudplay playlists far from a pleasant one. Rather quite annoying actually.

After all, much of the idea with Cloudplay is the possibility to mix local and cloud files, and then at least volume leveling is essential.

JimH · « **Reply #37 on:** February 23, 2022, 07:11:36 am »

I believe they do get analyzed when they are uploaded. Did you try turning on volume leveling?

Humbledore · « **Reply #38 on:** February 23, 2022, 09:39:12 am »

Quote from: JimH on February 23, 2022, 07:11:36 am

I believe they do get analyzed when they are uploaded. Did you try turning on volume leveling?

No, they are not automatically analyzed when uploaded. (I have volume leveling enabled.)

I have downloaded thousands of Cloudplay files, and not even one percent has been analyzed, at all.

Some observations/numbers:
Among these few with a non-blank Volume Level value, about half of them have blank fields for BPM and Dynamic Range.
These, in turn, have no Volume Level decimal values. They are rounded to integers (point 0).

EDIT:
If you can fix a solution that makes it possible to analyze Cloudplay files locally within MC, I would upgrade immediately...

JimH · « **Reply #39 on:** February 23, 2022, 12:58:16 pm »

You can't download Clouplay files. Just playlists.

Humbledore · « **Reply #40 on:** February 23, 2022, 01:53:07 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 23, 2022, 12:58:16 pm

You can't download Clouplay files. Just playlists.

File, playlist or an url. No matter what you call it, there is an issue with non-analyzed Cloudplay songs.

And to repeat; if you can fix a solution that makes it possible to analyze Cloudplay songs locally within MC, I would upgrade immediately.

bheyamoto · « **Reply #41 on:** September 20, 2022, 06:53:48 pm »

Very poor communications. When will they allow us to change the playing position of a particular song midstream (of a high definition (e.g. 24 bit 96 or 192 kHz song) , when playing? Is that in this upgrade?

blgentry · « **Reply #42 on:** September 21, 2022, 01:27:21 pm »

Quote from: bheyamoto on September 20, 2022, 06:53:48 pm

Very poor communications. When will they allow us to change the playing position of a particular song midstream (of a high definition (e.g. 24 bit 96 or 192 kHz song) , when playing? Is that in this upgrade?

It works just like a 16 bit 44.1kHz file. Click on the timeline just below the playback information, at the top of the window. You can jump the playback position to anywhere you want, pretty much instantly.

Brian.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: MC 29 what are the audio improvements and new features (Read 11049 times)