Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[RC23]

[Moved from a JRVR thread on the MC29 board]

The above described performance of JRVR sounds very promising... almost too good.   Exactly there I would like to arrive and will therefore use JRVR.

My application will be BR in HT and MS Flight Simulator (MSFS). For this I will set up a separate PC, which will initially cover only 2K.

As a projector I use a Mitsubishi HC5 (HC5 is the same as HC9000), which provides a great picture on a 100" screen. TV - a Philips 43" - from the Full HD founding era of 2010, also with good picture quality despite its age. I think in two years I'll switch to 4K. 

Besides that, I'm not a classic gamer. Only MSFS appeals to me, where already 30..35fps are enough for smooth gaming.

In HT, I would like to scale BR from 2K to 4K later.

I'm still wavering between AMD and Nvidia for the graphics card. Does it make more sense for HT and MSFS as an application to get a used Nvidia 1060 Ti, 1070, 1660 Super or 2070 Super or better to go for a modern AMD Radeon RX 6600? For the 6600 speaks that here already HDMI 2.1 is supported. I have reserved 300 to 500 Euros for the graphics card as a price range.

The hardware requirements of MSFS are considerable. MSFS is only played at 30..35fps but in 4K I very often see modern Nvidia cards with 3070 or 3080. Since I will still be in 2K, I can choose significantly smaller graphics cards.

My plan so far for the configuration:

Win 10 Pro 64bit
MSI MAG B550M Mortar | Ryzen 5 5600X | 32GB DDR4 3200 Crucial Ballistix | XFX Speedster SWFT 210 Radeon RX 6600 with 8GB | PSU Seasonic Focus GX 750W ATX 2.4 | Philips 42PFL7404H Full HD TV | Projector Mitsubishi HC5 (both with 1080p)

Are there any reasons that clearly see Nvidia as the best way to go, or is a Radeon RX 6000 a good solution? The performance of an RX 6600 is just below an RTX 3060 and well above the RTX 3050 that is now on the market.

Review of the RTX 3050 https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/nvidia-geforce-rtx-3050-review-evga-xc-black

Review of the RX 6600 https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-radeon-rx-6600-review-xfx

In about a month I will buy the PC parts and build the PC. After that I will test and work with JRVR.

[BryanC]

For your light use case I would eschew the discrete GPU altogether and purchase a 5600G or 5700G. I'm not a MSFS expert so check out specific benchmarks for that hardware.

[jmone]

Personally, I'd suggest a discreate NVidia based GPU simply because:
- Most HTPC use NVidia and hence you will get better support from the community on any issues as it is easier for others to test and replicate
- A discrete GPU (even a 2nd hand 1660Ti) is far more powerful than any iGPU giving you more options for JRVR processing and better headroom
- My iGPU works with the NUC in basic settings but the little fan is screaming along.  I'm not too obsessive about fan noise, but a dedicated GPU has larger, slower and quieter fans.

[BryanC]

It also depends on your content. If you're primarily using 720p/1080P Blu-Ray or TV content on a big screen then Jinc or AI upscaling is really nice to look at, and you'll want a beefy discrete NVidia card as jmone suggests. However, If you are primarily watching 4K UHD then the exotic upscalers don't make a lot of difference for the added power draw.

I just think that the iGPUs are getting good enough at this point to obsolete the low-end discrete graphics for HTPCs and light gaming. Laptops don't make great HTPCs (loud cooling like jmone also mentioned), but you can go a little higher end and throw a passive cooler on the 5600G or 5700G and get silent Jinc + tonemapping in my experience. And for the price of discrete GPUs right now you could upgrade the APU a couple times over down the road for the cost savings, not to mention the power savings (energy prices are up 27% this year).

Basically, don't buy a low-end GPU. Either go big for the headroom and upscaling or stick to high-end integrated.

[jmone]

FYI - If you have not seen it, I've posted some screen shots of the performance of JRVR running on iGPU, 1660Ti, 3090 on a range of material (BD 1080i, BD 1080p, even UHD 59.94fps) being sent to a UHD screen.
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,132075.0.html

[RC23]

These are good points made by jmone. The proportion of NV to AMD in the forums of HT and MSFS is 90 to 10%. But there are the AMD users and stronger in gamer forums. Already had contact with several AMD users for MSFS.

NV currently has the technical lead in DLSS and negatively in power consumption. NV always pushes high-end cards that are characterized by significantly higher power consumption. The new small RTX 3050 is a positive exception with only 100W TDP.

DLSS is an NV only solution, which will be overtaken by Intel Arc in 2022/2023, which will replace DLSS with an alternative via XeSS. In addition, XeSS is technically open for all market providers. AMD is riding in Intel's slipstream here and takes the XeSS advantages with it.

DLSS is not an topic for MSFS and HT. As far as I know, this is only interesting for games that support DLSS. So, checked off as not necessary.

The idea of using iGPU for gaming sounded interesting at first, since I hadn't looked at it before. I made up for that and read a detailed review. The result is sobering. When I look at the strongest AMD iGPU - 5700G - I only get 18 fps for MSFS at 1080p in the preset high details.

Review 5700G https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-7-5700g-review

This is clearly too low for MSFS, which wants to see 30..35 fps. The requirements in MSFS increase with higher detail and complex flight environment like clouds, fog and big cities with lots of details. So, an iGPU is not a solution for MSFS unless you reduce detail and go back to 720p.

As jmone notes, current graphics cards have become very quiet.... and a quiet PC is my goal.

Currently, the RTX 3050 is coming out, but it's still in short supply and thus relatively expensive. I will wait another month until the availability has improved, the drivers are more stable and there is first user feedback in the forums.  As an alternative I see the RX 6600 which is located above the RTX 3050 and slightly below the RTX 3060.

Currently I prefer the RX 6000 as it has more headroom for all applications, is quiet under load and has stable drivers. Will be watching both cards on the forums.

Here is a comparison video to the RX 6600 XT - a 15% more powerful version of the RX 6600.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5gKVnL_7ts
Note that Ultra settings have been used throughout. High settings are a very good compromise between image quality and necessary computing power.

Attached a presentation with benchmarks, from which I have taken important data. I have converted all benchmarks to high settings, since this is the best compromise.

[fitbrit]

For your light use case I would eschew the discrete GPU altogether and purchase a 5600G or 5700G. I'm not a MSFS expert so check out specific benchmarks for that hardware.

Unfortunately MSFS is probably the most graphics-demanding game ever made. Even a 3080 isn't enough for 4K 60 fps at higher settings.

[BryanC]

Well then the answer is an easy one: get the best GPU you can afford. I was under the impression that MSFS was that thing I played around with in the 90s (not a gamer) and didn't realize it is so demanding.

Reasons against AMD for this application: Hendrik doesn't test JRVR on AMD, AMD custom mode settings (for PAL, etc) are inferior to nVidia's, I've experienced issues with JRVR on low-end integrated AMD chips that I don't have on nVidia or Intel, AMD driver cycle is still tumultuous. I don't know if the low-end AMD JRVR issues are fundamental to AMD and masked by horsepower, but if I were dropping several hundred dollars on a GPU I would just pay the small added premium to not worry about it.

The RTX 3070 looks to have the best performance/watt of the nVidia lineup (and uses less power than the 6800) so that's what I'd recommend.

[RC23]

Unfortunately MSFS is probably the most graphics-demanding game ever made. Even a 3080 isn't enough for 4K 60 fps at higher settings.

I read about an MSFS user where a 10 year old i5 2500 and a 4 year old GTX 1660 Super gave a passable picture in 2K and that in settings with level high. In MSFS you can go to 30..35 fps without visible quality degradation. Anything above that doesn't add any value here in 2K or 4K. 
https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/592431-confused-about-minimum-requirements/?do=findComment&comment=4447638

Usual gaming of course works with high fps numbers. The slower motion of flying does not require high fps numbers.

The RTX 3050 just coming out is a modernized GTX 1660 Super.

[RC23]

An RTX 3070 is a card from the upper shelf and currently costs 900 Euros. With this card you can use madVR in highest settings for 4K... that will run smoothly. I'm watching the thread on madVR in German spoken forum.

Posting from the madVR thread (07.09.2021):

Jerks with RTX 3070 everything the same.... Kodi video player (without DS, madVR) runs buttery smooth. Tested with 1080p23.976.mkv (Remux) file, with 1920x108024p(23.976) fixed screen resolution.
 
- AMD driver with DDU secured removed
- LAVFilter 0.74.1. tested all decoders
- madVR V0.92.17 down to Sharp low, although the card would tolerate significantly more
- Nvidia driver 471.96 (latest) with RGB 8bit full
- Bernd's last "general settings" madVR taken over

At the same place RX 6600 XT and RX 5700 XT ran without problems.

Gerald_Z
Link http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?action=browseT&forum_id=253&thread=669&postID=2008#2008

Gerald_Z is a power user for madVR and has been around for a very long time. By mentioning the RX 6600 XT I came to AMD and thus the RX 6000 without XT.

Posting from the madVR thread (11/28/2021):

... It runs smoothly with the 3070. My tip: If new then RTX 3070 up or buy used with a GTX 1080 card.

Mankra

Link http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?action=browseT&forum_id=253&thread=669&postID=2110#2110

Besides Gerald_Z, Mankra is the second power user for madVR. I would like to inquire in the madVR thread because of the quality of the drivers for NV and AMD.

@BrianC: So that I can ask forum specific questions about driver quality, please give me the relevant keywords and problems. If the driver problem AMD does not exist, then this increases the distribution of JRVR and JRiver.

If I understand correctly, JRVR is much easier to use than madVR and at the same time less resource-hungry ... so runs with good performance on different platforms from Intel NUC to HTPC with GPU.

[BryanC]

My own tests are scattered throughout the various JRVR topics, however it's not really pertinent to the high end discrete GPUs or even the high end integrated GPUs. I've tested a 2500U (Vega 8) and an R1505G (Vega 3) where there are non-performance related JRVR issues (frame drops) that don't happen on Intel/nVidia. madVR also ran fine on these chips. However, I've also tested a 5600G that didn't have these issues so I assume it pertains only to low-end integrated AMD APUs, probably due to powersaving or memory bandwidth. I doubt you would see an issue with a beefy XT card. But, it highlights that just doing a benchmark comparison between nVidia/AMD doesn't tell the entire story. It pays off in the long run to use the same hardware that the developers are using.

[jmone]

Raw performance does matter with JRVR (or any other renderer).  From my testing, A 1660Ti is about 5x slower than a 3090, and the NUC7 is 15x slower.  This raw performance impacts what refinement you can successfully use in JRVR.  The 3090 for instance can run all of the High Quality settings that JRVR has.  The 1660Ti starts to run into issues where you have to use a slightly lower upscaling process on some media.  The NUC really can only do HDR passthrough and only basic upscaling.  I'd also expect that over time, there will be other features that will be added to JRVR that will require additional compute power, so having a GPU with capacity to spare is a good idea to be able to take advantage of these.  I don't game so getting a midrange card like the 1660Ti without DLSS saved some $, was still pretty powerful = good HTPC Value for Money.  In fact, I've found over the years it is the GPU that is the critical HTPC component and I'm running these in older Gen 6/7 i5 CPU SFF builds that just don't need to be upgraded.   

Well then the answer is an easy one: get the best GPU you can afford.

Yup.  ... and I'd still suggest NVidia to make your life easer.

[Hendrik]

I was under the impression that MSFS was that thing I played around with in the 90s (not a gamer) and didn't realize it is so demanding.

There was a new one in 2020 with modern graphics. And it is indeed quite demanding if you want to play it in higher quality.

[RC23]

I have now decided not to follow the AMD RX 6600 any further, since the NV RTX 3050 will suffice for my purposes. 4K with upscaling for projector or TV is not yet an issue.

I'll wait another month until the supply of 3050 cards has improved and then go for it. The prices for graphics cards have been falling for two weeks due to more supply and less demand due to Etherium mining.

MSFS in 1080p looks like an easy game for a 3050 card.

[Smack]

So maybe an 3050 will be good for upscale (2k -> 4K) (even better that an iGPU)? And dynamic tonemapping is possible? And does it make a difference if it is a Nvidia or AMD GPU ( for madvr it is always recommended to use an Nvidia card)?

[BryanC]

So maybe an 3050 will be good for upscale (2k -> 4K) (even better that an iGPU)? And dynamic tonemapping is possible? And does it make a difference if it is a Nvidia or AMD GPU ( for madvr it is always recommended to use an Nvidia card)?

I'd recommend reading the rest of this thread as your questions have been addressed. Short answer, yes if you want to use higher quality upscalers like Jinc (and beyond) w/ tonemapping, a 3050 will be fine. And it's preferable to stick with nVidia.

[lello]

And it's preferable to stick with nVidia.

I've always had AMD because I knew NVIDIA was having trouble managing 23.976 fps - did they solve this problem?

Is it possible to create custom resolutions with NVIDIA?

The RTX 3050 to which AMD model can it be equated?

Thank you

[Hendrik]

I've always had AMD because I knew NVIDIA was having trouble managing 23.976 fps - did they solve this problem?

It got a lot better. Up to a point where most probably wouldn't care anymore.

Is it possible to create custom resolutions with NVIDIA?

Sure. madVRs automatic method doesn't seem to work anymore.Manual creation with some good old math (or trial and error) has always been fine.

The RTX 3050 to which AMD model can it be equated?

None that fit quite well. It sits somewhere between the 6600 and the rather underwhelming 6500. If you go a generation back, it sits closer to a 5600 XT.
For NVIDIA, its similar to a previous-gen 2060, or jmone's 1660 Ti referenced above.

I heard they are also producing 2060s again to fill in the lower end market with more supply. Either one of those or a 3050 would definitely be good builds for a decent video playback experience.
The 3050 has the advantage of being HDMI 2.1 which is good for running new TVs at higher refresh rates without sacrificing anything else. AMD 6000 series has that as well of course, but not any previous gens from either vendor.

Any lower and you really run into iGPU territory - which still works, but you give up quality features of course.

PS:
I would recommend against a AMD 6500 specifically, not only did they cut down memory bandwidth dramatically, but also video encode/decode features are missing, which might come and haunt you for a video-playback specific build.

[Smack]

@hendrik

So a 3050 will be good for upscaling 2k->4K and dynamic tonemapping?
I really want to use only your software for upscaling and dynamic tonemapping since madvr is so Hardware hungry.

How good will the upscaling be with a 3050? I doubt it will run all your upscalers in highest quality right?

[Hendrik]

I don't have a 3050 to test, so I cannot comment. But you can look at jmone's report from a 1660 Ti, which should be similar in performance.

[Smack]

Would you recommend a 3060 (ti) instead or better what is the lowest priced gpu to do upscale in high options and dynamic tonemapping ? I hope the gpu is powerful enough for all settings.

[RC23]

Thanks jmone for interesting test results from practice. https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?action=post;quote=915585;topic=132075.0;last_msg=915865

What CPU and RAM are you using? 2x 8GB RAM should be sufficient?

The new RTX 3050 is a modernised GTX 1660ti. The benchmark results for both models are close to each other. A GTX 1660 Super is in the same performance level, although the 1660 Ti is a few frames better than the 1650 Super. https://youtu.be/aZoIZyNqIos?t=496

The linked benchmarks were measured for games, where the demands on the graphics card are higher for 3d than for 2d of a video.

[BryanC]

Would you recommend a 3060 (ti) instead or better what is the lowest priced gpu to do upscale in high options and dynamic tonemapping ? I hope the gpu is powerful enough for all settings.

It's too variable based on content for specific recommendations, but if you want the best quality upscaling available, buy the best GPU you can afford.

[jmone]

I've always like the price performance ratio of mid range cards like the 1660Ti.  It was also a good choice at the time as it did not have the price premium associated with DLSS which we don't use in HTPCs.  I'm running two of them in SFF boxes and don't have any complaints about the quality of the image it produces with JRVR.  The purpose of the comparisons is to give an idea of what you can expect with the Low End (iGPU), Mid Range (1660Ti), High End (3090). 

In the mid range, expect that you can run most but not all JRVR settings on "high" across all media type.  With the 1660Ti I have to drop from FSRCNNX16 to FSRCNNX8 on some material ... but I'm not sure I can tell the difference anyway (law of diminishing returns). 

CPU and Memory is far less important.  The low end is the NUC7i5, the 1660Ti's are running in 16gb with i5-7500 and i5-??.  The 3090 has a i9-11000K with 64GB.  Again, a mid-range CPU and 16gb is fine.  I upgrade the GPU far more often than the CPU/RAM on the HTPC (note: I did think I had to upgrade these older HTPC due to their "official" lack of Win11 Support.... but they run it fine).

[Smack]

Thanks jmone for your tipps.

So the 3050 will do the job I think if the GPU is as powerful as an 1660Ti.

The most important feature for me will be the dynamic tonemapping (the last movie i watched was Dune (2021) and it was on some scene way to dark). My Epson has a target peak ~ 50 nits so the tonemapping is really important.

Upscale should be better than my epson i hope.

The 3050 is offered some times for ~ 350 €. Next Time i see one i think i order it. The only problem is that the cards only have maximum 8 GB Ram.

The 3060 would be the card i really like to have but with a price over 600€ it is way too much for me

I want a GPU which has a good upscaling performance and does dynamic tonemapping.

[RC23]

@Smack: Which Epson? Please describe the technology used clearly by stating the model. This way you can find out more details through Google.

[jmone]

I've not run into any issues with Memory on the 1660Ti which is 8GB for HTPC use and the 8GB 3050 will be fine (I'd avoid the 4GB versions).  FWIW, the reason I ended up with a 3090 is for DaVinci Resolve as I was getting out of memory errors on my 8GB cards on a 4K timeline.  I had to cough up a liver however. 

[Smack]

@Smack: Which Epson? Please describe the technology used clearly by stating the model. This way you can find out more details through Google.

I use an Epson LS10000. This is an Laser Projector which is capable to display most of rec2020.  Dci-p3 should be almost 100 accurate if I remember right.
The epson is a Pixel shifter so he can produce an excellent 4K picture. But he can’t display Hdr. So I have to use dynamic tonemapping and hdr-sdr.

[Smack]

I also find out Nvidia has developed a rtx2060 with 12gb. I saw a benchmark where the conclusion was that the 2060 is better than an 3050 (almost as good as a 3060).

So it would be better to use an 2060 as an htpc gpu?

[jmone]

8 vs 12GB is not going to matter for UHD material.  Get whatever is available at the price point you like. 

[RC23]

With the RTX 2060, the 12GB RAM and the GPU do not match. The GPU of 2060 can't get quick enough data out of the RAM. 8GB is currently a good size.

[Hendrik]

The 2060 12GB is not the same GPU as the old 2060, it has more cores as well, so its overall faster then the original 2060.

[Smack]

The 2060 12GB is not the same GPU as the old 2060, it has more cores as well, so its overall faster then the original 2060.

That’s exactly what I heard. The new 2060 should be as fast as the 2060 ti or
Super.
So this one should be better suited as a 3050 as far as I understand. 

[JimH]

terrym's post on his experience with different cards and 4K:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,132094.msg916250.html#msg916250

[lello]

Could a GPU with only one fan still work or would that be a problem? https://www.amazon.it/dp/B08Z83QKWX/?coliid=I2G3B6UUH0DS4P&colid=24CT1KIF8LXCR&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1

[BryanC]

Could a GPU with only one fan still work or would that be a problem? https://www.amazon.it/dp/B08Z83QKWX/?coliid=I2G3B6UUH0DS4P&colid=24CT1KIF8LXCR&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1

They are fine, usually a bit louder/hotter than a full-sized card but probably not a big deal for an HTPC, plus you can shrink the rest of your footprint down now or in the future if you wanted to.

[lello]

Well, for my old case https://www.quietpc.com/instructions/ht400 single fan GPUs are ideal.

I didn't understand what you mean by "plus you can shrink the rest of your footprint down now or in the future if you wanted to"

[BryanC]

Well, for my old case https://www.quietpc.com/instructions/ht400 single fan GPUs are ideal.

I didn't understand what you mean by "plus you can shrink the rest of your footprint down now or in the future if you wanted to"

ATX -> mini ITX for example, as SFF cases are more likely to accommodate half-length GPUs.

[cgott42]

What videocard should I get (without overbuying) for the best upscaling of 1080p30/720p record TV (sports) to 4k 60Hz? Purely for jriver (no gaming).