Topic: Media Center 9 and JRSS (surround sound) (Read 7753 times)

Matt · « **on:** February 07, 2003, 03:25:46 pm »

I've always wanted to be able to play my stereo CD's using all 5.1 or 7.1 speaker in my stereo setup. Most amps have some sort of 2 channel to 5.1 channel splitting in them, but I've never found anything I'm really happy with. Generally hardware solutions aren't very flexible and many leave the center speaker dead.

The latest build of Media Center (9.0.109) adds the ability to play stereo music as 5.1 output. It may add more configuration (crossovers, delays, preamps, etc.) and eventually 7.1 output as well.

(Configuration is under Playback Settings/DSP Studio/Output Format.)

I'm wondering a few things:

1) Is anybody (other than me) interested in this, and would you put it to real world use?
2) What technologies have you used for this, and what do you think of them?
3) What sound card can output 6 ( or 8 ) streams without mangling them? I'm not having very good luck with the SoundBlaster Audigy2 I've been testing with. I can't make the Creative drivers stop running their own channel mixing and DSP code (even in ASIO output). Are there any cheap, simple solutions? How about those multi-channel jobbers on cheap motherboards?

Thanks for any feedback or advice.

aussie1 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 07, 2003, 03:43:46 pm »

You might try M-Audio's Revolution 7.1 sound card. It won best in show at Macworld. The sound at the demo booth was excellent.

TURBO · « **Reply #2 on:** February 07, 2003, 04:13:56 pm »

I am interested. I do have the M-audio Revolution 7.1. This baby sounds incredible. The problem is that I dont have enough space to use more than 2 speakers. I do have few servers running 24/7. My room looks like the space center with all these lights blinking. So I cant test the full features of this great soundcard.

Eiffel · « **Reply #3 on:** February 07, 2003, 05:39:34 pm »

Matt, I sure am interested...

If you were to include Dolby Digital and Dts decoding, that would be awesome (DPLII or equivalent for movies and music would be nice too)... to top it all you could add DVD-A (MLP), but I might be dreaming here

Given the licensing fees, this probably means that we'd have to pay some more for these audio filters, which I'd gladly do if MC could be used to decode DD or DTS both from internal sources (like a DVD player such as TheaterTek) and external SPDIF or analog sources (I have an HDTV card which outputs DD AC3 on an external connector, and would certainly like being able to use MC to decode this signal)

This would allow me to replace my external Digital Processor, and would give me access to newer format.

Actually, a plug in approach might be worth considering ($10 per sound format such as DD or Dts would be attractive)

Besides the Revo sound card, you might want to look at the M-Audio pro products (Delta 410, 1010, 1010LE), which are also very nice cards.

Finally, these cards have drivers which already provide crossover adjustments, delays and channel level volume controls, so you shouldn't have to worry about these features...

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 07, 2003, 06:18:18 pm »

They also have a USB version. I am definitly interested in all of the above.

CVIII

Autoelph · « **Reply #5 on:** February 07, 2003, 06:19:37 pm »

I'm definitely interested, and the M-audio cards are probably the best sound for the money. I use a Gina card (2DIG I/O S/PDIF and 2Ana in & 8Ana out) by Echo Audio, but have yet to get ASIO working on it with MC9, it just buffers then crashes, so far. I understand you've got some work ahead of you though.

bspachman · « **Reply #6 on:** February 07, 2003, 07:06:12 pm »

I think the hottest 2channel->multichannel surround experience today is Circle Surround II. There have been many posts about it on the AVS forums (in the HTPC forum particularly).

I agree with the folks above in recommending the M-Audio cards. If you want to go even higher-end, check out RME.

Moving in this direction makes it even more likely that MC can start to replace a traditional pre-amplifier.... Just hook your sound card's analog outs to your amp(s) & away you go!

Brad

dragyn · « **Reply #7 on:** February 07, 2003, 11:59:18 pm »

I think I'm gonna have to get one of those m-audio usb devices to replace my current 24/96. I made some DVD copies using AC3 but when a sound card only does 2ch, it doesn't sound the best.

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 09, 2003, 02:33:44 pm »

I went to get the M-Audio device but didn't due to two problems:
1. They didn't have the USB version and
2. It won't work with Windows 98SE.

So I bought a Sound Blaster Extigy. I like external stuff. I haven't tackled the installation yet but I'll let you know what happens. I have 14 days to return it so if anybody has any reasons to not get/use this machine, speak now or forever hold your peace.

\http://www.soundblaster.com/products/extigy/tour.asp

CVIII

Sadashiv1 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 10, 2003, 04:29:32 pm »

Matt,

I alwasy wanted to do the the same - play stereo CD
with 5.1 output. I have Santa Cruz sound card that
is supose to output AC3 provided the soruce is AC3.
So I don't know how good it will be or will it even
work. I am sure there are better cards now.
If MC 9 can output 5.1, it will be great.

konicky · « **Reply #10 on:** February 11, 2003, 01:48:13 am »

Hi Charlemagne 8,
Extigy is good but quite an old product now. Based on Audigy, not new Audigy 2. I'm only guessing but I expect they will soon introduce an updated version. Large discounts available on Extigy would perhaps suggest this?

K-Wood · « **Reply #11 on:** February 11, 2003, 04:03:52 am »

Folks, I've been using JRSS since the new build came out with my M-Audio Delta 410. The Delta 410 directly drives a 5-channel amp and powered sub. I've been playing stereo wavs stored on my server.

It sounds awesome. With the M-Audio Delta drivers I can apply bass management and individual channel delay/gain adjustments as well. The combo of JRSS and the M-Audio drivers is close to, if not better than, DPLII in PowerDVD XP.

Can you give any details on how you've matrixed the center and surround channels?

PhatPhreddy · « **Reply #12 on:** February 11, 2003, 05:49:31 am »

Ohh hell yes !!! My amp performs a basic stereo to 5.1 mix but lacks DPLII Logic7 or CSII so this is a real desirable feature for me and many of the HTPC people...

I actually mailed SRS Labs and IM'ed Kurt from the same concerning how thier licencing structure works and whether they or M$ coded the WMP9 CSII plug in (I obviously pimped MC and MJ to raise thier awareness of the app too).

I am particularly keen in CSII as it seems that it is the audiophile multi channel mix solution.. Bill Gaw a reviewer from EnjoyTheMusic.com and AVS member whose opinion I trust states that CSII beats even Logic7 of the Lexicons...

I dont want to move to WMP9 (and go ASIO Less) and considered buying the Revo to get this feature in the driver set rather than the current 410 I have now... Some launch issues with the Revo have held me back as well as the fact that currently the CSII and ASIO are mutually exclusive... Plus I believe that M-Audio will be releasing a 1010 consumer replacement with uprated dacs this year and can wait a while to see if this comes in at the <500 price point...

I should say that if this plug in was developed it should be done in such a way as to process the plug in and pass the result avoiding the kmixer... Just because channel seperation and direction is being applied there is no need IMHO to risk poor resampling at the mercy of windows...

Be aware that people would pay money for this plug in... Personally I may not be the norm but this is worth as much as MJ to me, it means I can either keep my reciever purely on one multi channel input or ditch it in favour of 5x power amps direct... Saving that money and putting it into more reveling equipment wuld be a big plus....

PhatPhreddy · « **Reply #13 on:** February 11, 2003, 06:03:00 am »

I rambled and forgot to mention some points...

I notice you are looking for a card to test with.. .if the budget is important (and lets face it when isn't it) I would have to say the Revo is the $99 king (www.digitalconnection.com for good service and the people who whipped M-Audio into making a consumer driver set... They deserve the business) as are many of the other M-Audio line... I have the 410 but this does not have CSII in drivers and never will have...

You could also look closely at the Ego-Sys range of 24/192 cards and rackmounts.. I have seen the basic 192? internal card go for as low as $129 and it has superb S/N specs and is pretty good but lacks the HT type of features of the M-Audio cards like channel distance delays and adjustable crosover / bass management.

Please do not consider a motherboard chipset as they are nearly all AC97 sound and will resample all 16/44.1 sound to 48khz usually very poorly (hence the foobar player and other pplug ins like MAD that I am sure you are aware of)... I would also steer clear of any USB solution as USB has questionable bandwidth for SPDIF and I would also question latency issues for a ASIO type environment...

Really if it is to be <$300 or so and you dont want to fight drivers then grab the Revo (some early driver issues aside) i dont know if you will still qualify on the free offer but DC pre buy customers have been promised a DVD-A player (happy happy joy joy) while other M-Audio versions will have to buy this when released (this is a DVD-A solution from a real pro audio company producing cards with a S/N ratio to do some justice... Personally I have been burnt with creative's marketing numbers previously and wont give them the time of day, but then gaming benches and other creative staples are very secondery to me also...

BTW I have been out of the MJ / MC loop for a while with travelling / Christmas / New Year / Chinease New Year / Etc excuses and only moved to MC in the last few weeks... I see HUGE potential in HairStyle and love the way you are pushing this app with ASIO / Multi Channel / TV front ends / Etc... WELL DONE...

Have you considered a HairStyle user submission area like skins... I think it would be very welcome and start people being able to share and learn from each other in putting them together and building one previous work...

Sadashiv1 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 08, 2003, 08:51:05 am »

Few dumb questions:

What do they mean - JRSS, ASIO ?

I read about m-Audio revolution. If I were to play
.ape stereo files in MC 9, I get 5.1 output, connect
M-audio to my home theater via a coax cable.
I get 5.1 sound. Correct? ?

JimH · « **Reply #15 on:** March 08, 2003, 10:31:57 am »

JRSS is JRiver Surround Sound, our 5.1, 6.1, etc. The sound card must support it.

ASIO is a way of bypassing the Windows sound manipulation to get a truer sound. The sound card must support it.

Try a search here for more on ASIO.

ChicoSelfs · « **Reply #16 on:** March 08, 2003, 01:57:20 pm »

And for those that have a SoundBlaster 5.1 Player or Platinum and don't have ASIO, there is KXproject Audio Driver, give a try http://kxproject.spb.ru/index.php?skip=1 with this you can use ASIO with your soundboard and MC9

rossp · « **Reply #17 on:** March 09, 2003, 07:14:37 am »

The following sound blaster cards don't work well with asio, they have a hw bug that the sw can't get round.

Live!X-Gamer 5.1
Live!MP3+ 5.1
Live!Player 5.1
Live!Platinum 5.1
Live! Digital Entertainment 5.1 cards

All these cards are referenced by SB0060 when the driver loads. My Live!Platinum 5.1 didn't give me the rear speakers properly :-/

Does anyone have a good choice for a sound card with asio support...

Ross

rossp · « **Reply #18 on:** March 09, 2003, 08:17:53 am »

OK OK, I know, go to surrounder and select 5.1 speakers and all works great. You would think it would default to that eh...

Ross

KingSparta · « **Reply #19 on:** March 09, 2003, 10:26:40 am »

>> JRSS is JRiver Surround Sound, our
>> 5.1, 6.1, etc. The sound card must support it.
How would a User Know?

Do you have info on what sound boards do support it?

nila · « **Reply #20 on:** March 09, 2003, 11:02:28 pm »

Dolby II would definitely be GREAT to recreate a great movie experience

Mooneyass · « **Reply #21 on:** March 10, 2003, 02:42:16 pm »

Ok, I have the latest build of MC9, .125, WinXP MCE, Delta 410 (beta drivers) and cant seem to get ASIO JRSS 5.1 to work. I set everything to my liking but the settings wont stick. Any ideas?

Wes

Sadashiv1 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 10, 2003, 03:38:18 pm »

Here is what I found out about M-audio, ASIO.

M-Adio revolution is tied to WMA 9 so they probably
would never support ASIO.

KX does ASIO only for SB and one another brand.

So back to Matt's question - What sound card to
use with MC9 for 5.1 output with ASIO.

PhatPhreddy · « **Reply #23 on:** March 12, 2003, 12:37:12 am »

Quote

Here is what I found out about M-audio, ASIO.

M-Adio revolution is tied to WMA 9 so they probably
would never support ASIO.

KX does ASIO only for SB and one another brand.

This is patently false. M-Audio tied to WMP9... in what way ??

I cant understand your logic... M-Audio (in all its cards including the 410 and revo) is a soundcard maker who come from a studio / pro sound production background rather than a gaming / consumer background. The Revolution is the first card output from thier new consumer division and has admitedly some driver quirks (bugs) that are being addressed...

What any of this has to do with WMP9 or WMA is... ??

KX drivers are a project to try and get ASIO output on the SBLive cards and some of the family which are consumer / gaming cards not audio production cards... As it is a driver, of course it only works with the hardware it is being written for...

Are you confusing the fact that the Revo comes with CSII decoding in its driver and that WMP9 also has CSII plug in to WMP9 ?? of course its an either / or you dont need it in both) ??

Quote

So back to Matt's question - What sound card to
use with MC9 for 5.1 output with ASIO.

Almost any card destined for studio or production work with have an ASIO interface to its driver...

Sadashiv1 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 12, 2003, 08:04:24 am »

Not being too knowledgebale about intricacies of music world I made made some wierd statement. Just trying
to learn. Thanks for everyones patience and putting
up with dumb questions.

My questions:
1. Do I really need ASIO for regular home listening
of music or playing of DVDs?
2. Based on your last statement, do I assume that
M-Audio Revolution supports ASIO? WEB site does
not mention ASIO anywhere unlike SB web site.
I was intrigued by the price and positive comments
in this thread about M-audio.

Eiffel · « **Reply #25 on:** March 12, 2003, 11:27:00 am »

Quote

My questions:
1. Do I really need ASIO for regular home listening
of music or playing of DVDs?
2. Based on your last statement, do I assume that
M-Audio Revolution supports ASIO? WEB site does
not mention ASIO anywhere unlike SB web site.
I was intrigued by the price and positive comments
in this thread about M-audio.

1. No you don't. ASIO is only needed if you want to get the best CD sound and you are using a WDM driver for your soundcard (For home playback, ASIO's main benefit is that it bypasses the k-mixer, which is not bit perfect). This is not an issue with DVDs, as your typical SPDIF out is bit perfect for these signals...

2. The REVO, and most other sound cards with a pro background (RME, M-audio, etc.) support ASIO. The revo is certainly a great deal...

salsbst1 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 12, 2003, 11:43:00 am »

Quote

Here is what I found out about M-audio, ASIO.

M-Adio revolution is tied to WMA 9 so they probably
would never support ASIO.

KX does ASIO only for SB and one another brand.

So back to Matt's question - What sound card to
use with MC9 for 5.1 output with ASIO.

I think confusion may have come from the fact that there is a CSII plugin that is tied to WMP.

I'm looking forward to a plugin that ties CSII support to MC9!

PhatPhreddy · « **Reply #27 on:** March 12, 2003, 10:48:46 pm »

I figured it must have been the CSII lead... And sorry if I was snippy.. it was not intended I just type what I am thinking and should reread to consider sometimes... Looking at it now it does look terse...

I too am hopeful of a CSII plug in but it does not sound like it is moving (is it ??) also the Revo CSII is not perfect yet... it is not possible to have CSII AFTER ASIO so its a CSII (with kmixer distortion) or ASIO currently... Cliff is working to get this changed...

Sadashiv1 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 15, 2003, 04:52:15 am »

If MC9 already can output 5.1, why do we need CSII
plug-n and pay additional $15.

Matt,

Any more report on your experiment with any other
sound card apart from audigy 2. Did you try M-audio?
Say something? Thanks.

PhatPhreddy · « **Reply #29 on:** March 15, 2003, 08:48:24 pm »

Quote

If MC9 already can output 5.1, why do we need CSII
plug-n and pay additional $15.

Because not all matrix solutions are created equal... Taking a stereo soundfield and mapping it over 5.1 or 7.1 is something that can be simple or elegant...

In one instance you could simple split the L / R and play a merge of both to the centre... it works and maintains stereo information but trashes soundstage over the front 3...

More complex matrixes have been attempted DPLII Logic7 etc etc etc... Of these CSII is exceptionally good... I think that the WMP plug in currently makes a little too much bias to the surrounds (gain too high) but the seperation and steering are very very good... so far it is the best thing I have heard in turning 2ch to 5.1...

I am going under NDA for SRS to do some testing with thier encoder tools... Until I get my hands on them I have no way of knowing how this will work (and when I do I wont be allowed to say I expect !!) but it keeps me out of trouble...

I purchased the WMP plug in simply to evaluate the soundfield.. I am not happy to go to a player that does not handle APE files (I am leery of WMA Lossless) and lack of ASIO / the automatic normalisation / etc but wish I could achieve this with MC...

ChicoSelfs · « **Reply #30 on:** March 16, 2003, 03:20:13 am »

Some time ago i requested that plugin to MJ/MC and JimH told if there were more users that want this plugin they implemented on MJ/MC

ChicoSelfs · « **Reply #31 on:** March 16, 2003, 03:27:04 am »

Here it is the link

http://www.musicex.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=1045664117

PhatPhreddy · « **Reply #32 on:** March 16, 2003, 03:50:14 am »

Well I know lots of AVS people want it... It has been asked more than a few times...

problem as I see it is that it nees to be written and SRS want to get thier cut... I would assume the licencing issues become thorny for JRiver...

For the record I would happily plunk down $25 and may go up to $40 if it was going to be a superb implentation... EG it worked before the KMixer and passed it vai ASIO and there would be ongoing development to ensure the best implementation and usability.

DocLotus · « **Reply #33 on:** March 16, 2003, 12:53:58 pm »

I installed the kX Project software.

I can now select ASIO in MC9 but it says something about my soundcard does not support 44100 sampling rate. I changed the kX to 44100 but am still getting the error in MC.

Am using Creative Audigy Platinim which kX supports.

Any ideas?

ChicoSelfs · « **Reply #34 on:** March 16, 2003, 01:57:08 pm »

You have to change it to 48.000

DocLotus · « **Reply #35 on:** March 16, 2003, 02:37:34 pm »

Hi Chico;

Tried your suggestiions. ASIO now works... sort of.

The 5.1 keeps returning to 2 channel, plus there is a LOT of popping & clicking even at very low levels.

I have tried the Buffering slider at almost every point on the scale... no luck!

Any more ideas?

Eiffel · « **Reply #36 on:** March 17, 2003, 07:06:03 am »

Doclocus,

Not sure if this is of any help, but I had a lot of pop and crack noises with ASIO and resampling enabled (accessing the menus would generate some slight cracks!). They disappeared when I upgraded my motherboard (from a 1GHz to a 2.66 GHz machine), without any change in software, or sound card.

DocLotus · « **Reply #37 on:** March 17, 2003, 01:00:05 pm »

Hi Eiffel;

Am running 2.2 Gig motherboard with 512 Mb DDR memory. Don't think that is my problem.

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Author Topic: Media Center 9 and JRSS (surround sound) (Read 7753 times)

Autoelph

dragyn

nila