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[AGAWA]

I've noticed this in MC 30.0.30 on Intel and M1 Macs. Mac Mini M1 (latest Ventura) and Mac Mini 2014 Intel (latest Big Sur). MC 30.0.32 had the same problem.
I open options, Audio, DSP - and DSP windows is placed behind Options window, moreover DSP window is inactive. Edit, think it is active, but on small screen it is difficult to move OPTIONS windows out of view.

[EnglishTiger]

Agawa - Instead of using Tools >> Options to get to the DSP Studio Window/Forms hover your mouse over the 3rd button at the right-hand end of the progress form. That will bring up a window that allows unobstructed access to the DSP Studio Window/Forms.

[AGAWA]

EnglishTiger,
thank you for the tip. Known to me.

The DSP window problem did not exist in MC28 or MC29. It was introduced by MC 30 and would be glad it to be corrected and returned to previous DSP behaviour.

[blgentry]

I don't see that problem with the system I just tested.  The DSP window appears on top of Options.

Two more faster ways to open DSP Studio all by itself:

* Command-d
* Player > DSP Studio

I haven't opened DSP Studio with a menu item in years.  Then again, I really like keyboard shortcuts.

Best of luck.
Brian.

[bob]

The Options window is a modal window, it's always in front (or should be).

The DSP studio window is at the same level as the main UI window so you can change the focus and stacking by clicking on either it or the main UI window but you can't and shouldn't be able to bring it above the Options window. The Options window isn't meant to be up all of the time, just set the options and exit.

[AGAWA]

Bob,
As I said ,it was different in MC28 which I still happen to use. When invoked DSP window was placed on top of Options window, ready to use.
In MC30, DSP window falls behind Options window, and no matter how you slide it it always stays behind.

No big deal , as I can use other ways to reach DSP settings, but there was a change to inconvenient behaviour.

Pls find two screen shots.

[bob]

Bob,
As I said ,it was different in MC28 which I still happen to use. When invoked DSP window was placed on top of Options window, ready to use.
In MC30, DSP window falls behind Options window, and no matter how you slide it it always stays behind.

No big deal , as I can use other ways to reach DSP settings, but there was a change to inconvenient behaviour.

Pls find two screen shots.

MC28 behavior was incorrect.
The Mac build had no way of ordering windows then.

[blgentry]

The Options window is a modal window, it's always in front (or should be).

The DSP studio window is at the same level as the main UI window so you can change the focus and stacking by clicking on either it or the main UI window but you can't and shouldn't be able to bring it above the Options window. The Options window isn't meant to be up all of the time, just set the options and exit.

Have you tested that?  I find exactly the opposite on my system using MC30. 
The Options window can not be the top window when DSP studio is displayed. 
The Main windows can NOT be the top window when DSP studio is displayed. 
DSP Studio is always on top, no matter what.

Brian.

[AGAWA]

Bob and friends,
Maybe MC28 was incorrect, but as you can see in attached screen shot, DSP window opens in front of Options window as it should, allowing to work in DSO studio window.  MC 30 - Options window opens, and then when I want to work in DSP studio and open DSP studio window , it falls behind Options window , and this is the change from MC28. On a small screen it is really difficult to to access settings in DSP Studio window. Something is not right here.
I understand that there was a change to be in line with Apple's way of arranging windows. If so, something went wrong.

As I said, no big deal , as there are other ways of reaching DSP, but it is not what I'm used with Mac OS.

MORE: OPTIONS window is always in front of any application window. With MC 30 active and Options window open, I opened system settings, and it went behind Options window. Similarly with Firefox, fall behind.

[blgentry]

Do you have some kind of window placement software installed?  MOOM or something similar?

As I said, my DSP window is always on top.  It's always in front of Options and the main window.

Brian.

[AGAWA]

no funny software installed.

It is strange that with the same settings in OS, MC30 behaves differently to MC28 - which places DSP window in front and there is no problem with other applications contrary to MC30. What a confusion.

[bob]

No confusion.
Options is a MODAL dialog. It should be front and center, run and closed. It's not meant to be up all the time.
MC28 behavior is meaningless here.

[AGAWA]

Bob, thank you for explanation. I had to read about MODAL windows and see the reasons.

[blgentry]

No confusion.
Options is a MODAL dialog. It should be front and center, run and closed. It's not meant to be up all the time.
MC28 behavior is meaningless here.

But Options can be used to open DSP Studio.  Options > Audio > Settings > DSP .  In that case, shouldn't DSP Studio be on top of options?  Does that make sense?

In my case it definitely is.  I'm not sure why other customers get DSP Studio below Options, when mine is on top.  My main Mac runs MacOS 11.7 (Big Sur).  Not sure if MacOS version is relevant to the "modal dialog" behavior or not. 

Brian.

[EnglishTiger]

But Options can be used to open DSP Studio.  Options > Audio > Settings > DSP .  In that case, shouldn't DSP Studio be on top of options?  Does that make sense?

In my case it definitely is.  I'm not sure why other customers get DSP Studio below Options, when mine is on top.  My main Mac runs MacOS 11.7 (Big Sur).  Not sure if MacOS version is relevant to the "modal dialog" behavior or not. 

Brian.

Brian - as with Microsoft every time Apple introduce a New OS they either change the way certain thing work or introduce some brand-new undocumented feature that screws other features/routines up.

On the Win Platform if you use Tools > Options to open the DSP Studio Window you always get "DSP Studio Window" above the "Options Window" above the "Main MC Window".

Since the "Options Window" can be used to open other windows, it should always allow those windows to sit on top of the options window and not below them or prevent the user from accessing those new windows.

[AGAWA]

Brian,
I have the same situation with MC 30 on Big Sur Mac Mini late 2014 (read my first entry here). I'm curious why in your case MC30 behaves in old way and in my case I have  "MODAL" window that is always in front of any application.

I would prefer to be able to bring whatever window to front  rather than have to close (with red dot) options window to get access to DSP settings. This would be so called "usual operation in Mac OS".

But , as I understand, MODAL window was introduced purposely, according to Bob "It should be front and center, run and closed. It's not meant to be up all the time."

[JimH]

... MODAL window was introduced purposely, according to Bob "It should be front and center, run and closed. It's not meant to be up all the time."

True.  Just close the Options window.

[DJLegba]

A modal won't let its parent take focus, but it will let its children take focus. The Options window opens many child windows. Most of them are also modal, but even though the DSP window itself is not modal it should still get focus when opened as a child of Options.

[EnglishTiger]

Guys I've found a Solution to the Problem of the Options Window being on top of A Window that the Options Window has opened, like the DSP Studio Window.

All you have to do is grab hold of the Options Window and drag Iit to the left side of the screen and then grab the DSP Studio Window and drag it to the right, if there's still any overlap of the DSP Studio Window use the resize handles on the Options Window to give unobstructed access to the DSP Studio Window.

Now for the fun/good bit - After moving/modifying the Options Window clicking anywhere in the DSP Studio Window will give it the focus so that you can make any changes to it's settings.

Now for the really good bit MC Remembers the location of both windows and they will open in exactly the same places/locations the next time you use the Options Window to get to the DSP Studio Window.

It may also be a good thing to open the DSP Studio Window and under Manage Plugins select the Show Always on Top - that should stop the DSP Studio Window vanishing behind the Main MC Window.

[bob]

The DSP studio window is a weird exception since it's opened in 2 different places with different behavior.

One is from the main UI in which it should be able to be shifted foreground to background because it runs the same time as the main UI and the other where it's open as a child of the Options window (which I never do so it didn't come to mind).
When the DSP studio windows is opened from the Options window it's a modal as well (you shouldn't be able to input into another window while it's up).
I'll think about possible ways to handle that but it doesn't fit cleanly into the current structure of window handling on Mac.

[DJLegba]

I understand the Windows and Mac versions may not operate the same way, but in the Windows version when DSP is opened from Options it is not modal. It can lose the focus to Options (but not to anything behind Options). But if it is modal on the Mac, how is it different from say the Zone Switch window? Zone Switch is modal on the Windows version so it cannot lose the focus to its parent, Options. If you want DSP to behave this way on the Mac (I hope it doesn't change on Windows) can you not simply open it on top of Options?

[AGAWA]

other perspective on the subject:
4D recommends:

Modal windows

A modal window places the user in a state (or "mode") where they can only act within this window. As long as the modal window is displayed, the menu commands and other application windows are inaccessible. To close a modal window, the user must either validate it, cancel it, or choose one of the options it offers. Warning dialog boxes are a typical example of modal windows.

In 4D, windows of the types 1 and 5 are modal windows.

Note: A modal window always stays in the foreground. As a consequence, when a modal window calls a non-modal window, this latter window is displayed in the background, even though it was called subsequent to the modal window. You should thus avoid this type of operation.

On the other hand, when a modal window calls another modal window, this latter window will be displayed in the foreground.

[bob]

I understand the Windows and Mac versions may not operate the same way, but in the Windows version when DSP is opened from Options it is not modal. It can lose the focus to Options (but not to anything behind Options). But if it is modal on the Mac, how is it different from say the Zone Switch window? Zone Switch is modal on the Windows version so it cannot lose the focus to its parent, Options. If you want DSP to behave this way on the Mac (I hope it doesn't change on Windows) can you not simply open it on top of Options?

DSP studio isn't modal but Options is.
The way window levels work on Mac is that that modal popup window level is above the non-modal windows.

I think the bottom line here is that other popups from Options are modal (they disable the ability to input into the Options window, like the Audio Device window) but DSP studio isn't.
Maybe the DSP studio window level could be increased to the same as options when called from options and reverted to the main UI level when options closes...