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[JTrt]

The laptop I've been using for JRiver (Dell Latitude E7440) served me well, but it wasn't going to take Win11, had a battery issue and was running out of space. The last Windows update which turned it into cold molasses was the final straw.

Acquired a Lenovo X1 Carbon Gen9. Sweet piece of gear. Bought a bigger SSD for it and moved JRiver and all the media. Connected the USB cable to one of the USB A slots and fired it up.

It produced music with glitchy static sounding noise. Moved to the other USB A slot and the distortion went away. After about 30 seconds I knew there was something wrong.

All the body and life in the music was drained away. The highs were hard. It didn't sound the same at all.

I checked the new installation of JRiver (I had backed up and restored the old library) and all the settings were identical. I've checked everything to look at on the OS (Win11 x64) with no improvement.

How is it possible the sound could change that dramatically? The noisy USB port is an "Always On" type. I disabled the Always On feature in the BIOS with no improvement there either. There's a JCAT USB Isolator before the DAC noise generated by the machine should be isolated.

I don't know what to do. The stuff that's missing in the sound can't be brought back with EQ. My rig is a SET integrated, and NOS tube buffered DAC. The music is holographic, flesh and blood present. If I can't figure this out I don't know what I'll do to get the sound back.

Thank you for any ideas you might have.

[JimH]

More details would help. 

Version of MC, file types you're playing, etc.

Remove anything you can.  Jcat, for example.  Substitute parts (another DAC, for example).

Remove any sound related software.

Change audio output settings.  Direct Sound, WASAPI, etc.

[JTrt]

Thank you for your suggestions, Jim.

I did figure out the source of the noise coming from the USB ports. I have a cable that separates the power and data signals. I used a USB C converter and had the same noise in those ports. Substituting another (in the absence of these issues, inferior sounding) cable removed that. It didn't bring back what was missing.

Removing the JCAT didn't remedy the issue.

My DAC is an MHDT Orchid that has been modified (upgraded caps, resistors, RCA connectors). I happen to have one of the same units that is unmodified. I swapped it in. The sound is different that the other Orchid, but still different between JRiver instances. The Orchid is a definite part of the formula I have used for the sound I like (undigital).

I'm using the same version of MC30 on both systems. There isn't any sound software on either system save the Realtek audio drivers. The DAC is using WASAPI on both systems. My understanding is this is the preferred setting as it is a dedicated channel. Changing it on the original system to Direct sound made little difference, same with the new system.

At this point I want to get another pair of ears to confirm what I'm hearing. I fear I'm going to have to look at another method of transport.

[JimH]

Check your DSP settings.  Turn everything off.

[JTrt]

Hello again. I experimented with DSP settings. With all defeated on both systems the difference is still very much there.
I'm curious if you have ever heard of this before. Assuming JRiver is configured identically, the machine should just send data.
Thanks

[JTrt]

I just tried using a USB to SPDIF XCore converter instead of USB to USB. Same results.

Is it possible that the power supply in the new server is responsible??

Jon

[JTrt]

Of course I realized as soon as I hit "post" that I could test the power supply theory myself. Removing it from the laptop didn't change anything.

I will say going to the USB/SPDIF converter seems better than straight USB. At this point my ears are pretty tired.

It's still missing the color in it's cheeks.

[JimH]

Volume type and level?

[JTrt]

Jim,

My apologies, but I don't know what you are referring to. All of the DSP volume settings in JRiver have been disabled and both JRiver and the laptop are set for 100%. I'm controlling the volume level from the amplifier, not the application if that's what you mean.  When I do a comparison, all I'm doing is moving the USB cable from one machine to the other. Did I answer your question?

Thanks again for your help.

Jon

[AGAWA]

why don't you use other USB A which seems to be OK. I'm under impression from reading your posts that you are trying to find out what is wrong with the first USB port? Is it so?

[JTrt]

AGAWA, Thanks for chiming in. I'm just using the USB A that's not introducing noise with the USB cable I've used with my system up to this point. This cable does separate the power and data channels. If I use a regular USB cable in the problematic port, the noise disappears. I'm using the "fancy" cable because it sounds better and the level of performance from the new system needs to equal the old one.

[JTrt]

For anyone that's interested, I took the step of eliminating the USB interface and purchased a Sonore Signature Series Rendu (v1). My thought was any contribution to the sound from the computer (assuming JRiver was configured identically) would be subtracted. This version of the Signature Series only has BNC and I2S outputs, so I had to use a USB to RCA XCore D to D converter and added an RCA to BNC adapter for the connection to the DAC. Without the Rendu, this interface sounded very close to straight USB, so a good representation of the potential change was possible.

Naturally, the sound changed from the introduction of the Rendu. To my dismay the sound from the new laptop continued to sound worse than the old one. To be honest, I didn't really care for the sound with the Rendu with either computer, but there was a preference for the old one. It still sounded fuller and with more body. At this point, I'm leaning towards trying a third laptop (I have one I can borrow) for confirmation.

Maddening.

[JimH]

Here's a sound problem that was related to a driver:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,24031.msg936008.html#msg936008

You might look at others in that thread.

[JTrt]

Thanks Jim. This is probably a dumb question, but are drivers still influencing playback when the data is sent over the LAN to a renderer like the Sonore?

When going directly to the DAC, if I compare the Device Manager on both laptops, each is using the xCore USB Audio 2.0 as output and controller, activated when connected to the computer and deactivated when it's removed. This uses the Windows USB driver. There is an Intel Smartsound Technology for USB controller, which I disabled. The xCore is completely independent of it. If that's the only interface being used when it's connected, and the driver is Windows' own USB driver, doesn't that rule out the effect of anything else?

[JimH]

Please explain this:
"data is sent over the LAN to a renderer"

Replace each part and test.

Starting with "a JCAT USB Isolator".

Simplify as much as possible.

Different USB ports don't normally behave differently.

A USB driver from Windows also can't be eliminated as a possibility.

Google is good at providing clues.  Just ask the question there.

Good luck.

[JTrt]

What I mean by that is when using the Sonore, the PC is connected to the network and the USB isn't connected to anything. Data is sent to the Sonore (renderer) over the LAN. In that case, USB is stripped from the equation, yet the sound is different between computers.

When not using the Sonore, the setup is as simple as I can make it. USB to the USB input on the DAC. I have used USB to XCore USB to RCA converter to try the SPDIF inputs on the DAC, same results. 

I've done research outside of the forum. I appreciate all the help I've received here, but this is the end of the road. I'm not an electronics person, or able to get into the OS of a computer beyond Device Manager/BIOS etc. I've eliminated the USB with a network renderer. The reason they sound different is beyond my ability to solve. I'm going to try another laptop and see if it sounds different as well.

Again, I appreciate the help

[eve]

What I mean by that is when using the Sonore, the PC is connected to the network and the USB isn't connected to anything. Data is sent to the Sonore (renderer) over the LAN. In that case, USB is stripped from the equation, yet the sound is different between computers.

When not using the Sonore, the setup is as simple as I can make it. USB to the USB input on the DAC. I have used USB to XCore USB to RCA converter to try the SPDIF inputs on the DAC, same results. 

I've done research outside of the forum. I appreciate all the help I've received here, but this is the end of the road. I'm not an electronics person, or able to get into the OS of a computer beyond Device Manager/BIOS etc. I've eliminated the USB with a network renderer. The reason they sound different is beyond my ability to solve. I'm going to try another laptop and see if it sounds different as well.

Again, I appreciate the help

If I'm clear about what your problem was, and what worked to solve it.

You need Galvanic Isolation if you want to use USB D/A with this system that's giving you problems . A *good* modern DAC should be galvanically isolated. If you go older / esoteric or are working with crappy source devices, Intona USB Isolators are the standard.

FYI, audio over IP is better than USB in pretty much every way so YMMV if you decide to make USB audio play nice with your new laptop.

The Sonore isn't 'real' AoIP but that's fine. You aren't getting the benefit's of JRiver's playback chain though, it's mostly just a DLNA renderer right?

[JTrt]

Hello Eve and thanks for your reply.  I still have this issue and am stuck on how to deal with it. My old laptop is what I'm using despite its need to be replaced. I don't know if I have a DAC that provides galvanic isolation, but the "hifi" version of the Intona has been in my system for a few years now, the JCAT USB Isolator. Unfortunately, with or without it, the difference persists.

I'm not sure what you mean by the Sonore not being AoIP (audio over IP?). With the data going over ethernet what would be the protocol if not TCP/IP? You are correct, the Sonore is a DLNA renderer. Are you referring to the ability to use DSP?

[eve]

Hello Eve and thanks for your reply.  I still have this issue and am stuck on how to deal with it. My old laptop is what I'm using despite it's need to be replaced. I don't know if I have a DAC that provides galvanic isolation, but the "hifi" version of the Intona has been in my system for a few years now, the JCAT USB Isolator. Unfortunately, with or without it, the difference persists.

I'm not sure what you mean by the Sonore not being AoIP (audio over IP?). With the data going over ethernet what would be the protocol if not TCP/IP? You are correct, the Sonore is a DLNA renderer. Are you referring to the ability to use DSP?

You're already using the Intona. I really don't know here in that case!

Well there's like, transporting audio 'files' / data over IP and 'real time' audio over IP. They're quite different, DLNA falls in the first category. DLNA can be an improvement when you have noise over USB (or just practical considerations) though!

People who say 'USB' is perfect, haven't come across the issues you have I guess. I know I have in the past. My main extremely high performance workstation was really limited by USB for example, even well built, isolated DACs absolutely carried annoying high frequency noise and I hate to use the term but 'digital glare' before I ditched connecting usb D/A to it directly. I didn't buy into this whole 'oh you shouldn't have a bunch of processing happening on the same machine your D/A is connected to' but here we are LMAO. The only thing I have my D/A connected to now is a tiny fanless x86 system. It was a huge improvement, and then I added a linear power supply because why not (I can't really speak to an obvious difference to be entirely honest. I think it's there but that could be audiophile delusion)

[JTrt]

I wish I could say this problem was just USB, but taking it out of the equation with the Sonore didn't remove the unwanted sonic difference introduced by the new laptop. Can you give me an example of "real time" audio over IP?
Thanks.

[eve]

I wish I could say this problem was just USB, but taking it out of the equation with the Sonore didn't remove the unwanted sonic difference introduced by the new laptop. Can you give me an example of "real time" audio over IP?
Thanks.

https://merging.com/products/interfaces/hapi

https://nadac.merging.com - The consumer version

I personally use Dante (so Dante Virtual Soundcard on the source PC, and Dante Via on the endpoint connected to my D/A) and AES67 / Ravenna. The AES67 / Ravenna side of things is my own hacked together implementation since I'm not laying out the cash for a Merging device just yet.

https://www.audinate.com/products/software/dante-via
https://www.audinate.com/products/software/dante-virtual-soundcard

This combo is insanely reliable. I use it for the audio from both my main workstation as well as the cinema renderer.


There's some limitations to usb that are interesting as well. For example, like *most* USB audio devices, despite being asynchronous (this is a good thing) lack the ability to ask for frame retransmission. So if the data it gets doesn't look right, or doesn't get there, it cant actually go ask for that data again.

Whereas AoIP standards like Dante and AES67 by their nature of being essentially standard* network traffic, avoid this problem.

*I say standard because there are network and clocking considerations for AES67 in particular. It's super cool though like, the latency is just absurdly low and you're sitting there wondering how the hell a tiny ethernet cable replaced a 32ch snake.

[JTrt]

Thanks for the info. I'm pretty much limited to a laptop. A PC wouldn't work with my logistics or I probably would have one already with audiophile cards etc.

[eve]

Thanks for the info. I'm pretty much limited to a laptop. A PC wouldn't work with my logistics or I probably would have one already with audiophile cards etc.

The great part is, you don't need 'audiophile cards' for this. I even have VMs sending data into my audio network. The laptop is definitely a limitation though, WiFi is a big problem with AES67 and Dante.

[JimH]

Test without the JCAT USB Isolator.