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Author Topic: Dropped and Repeated Frames  (Read 1875 times)

timwtheov

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Dropped and Repeated Frames
« on: November 03, 2023, 07:42:16 pm »

I'm having a similar issue to TheShoe here

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=127243.0

but I'm using JRVR on the 64 bit, 31.0.80 build of MC. Basically I'm getting intermittant dropped and repeated frames of late (see attached OSD jpegs), where I didn't before, and I can't figure out why. I've

  • tamed Windows Defender, including file type exclusions (mkv in this case) along with drives (all movies are on various external hard drives)
  • set my Nvidia settings to "Prefer Maximum Performance" and switched Vsync to "On"

My setup is as follows:
  • HDMI from PC with an Nvidia 3060 with latest driver to Dr. HDMI (https://hdfury.com/product/dr-hdmi-4k/, set on either White 8 ("Downstream Copied EDID") or currently on Green 1 ("4k60-444-600M-HDR-BT2020-3D-FULLAUDIO")
  • HDMI from Dr. HDMI to Marantz SR5010 with no movie processing enabled
  • HDMI from Marantz to Samsung QLED Q60T 4K UHD TV

I can get it to not drop or repeat frames if in MC if I turn Display settings automatic change mode to "Custom" and force everything to 60hz, but then I get non-smooth pans. JRVR settings are pretty much all maxed out, with the highest scaling options checked, HDR tone-mapping used, and so forth. Video clock is checked, as is Hardware accelerate video decoding when possible (and un-checking either of these doesn't seem to make any difference). I have done a DDU display driver uninstall + reinstall of Nvidia drivers, and that didn't help anything either.

I'm just not sure what else to check. Any thoughts out there?

Edit: I should also note that I'm not talking about right when a movie starts: I know some drops happen then. What you see in the OSD screenshots is after a Cntrl-R to reset the dropped frames and after each file played for about 15 minutes or so.
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jmone

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2023, 09:49:24 pm »

Processing times looks fine.  Setup seems OK as well.  To simplify the setup a bit, try without the Dr HDMI in the chain.
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2023, 08:37:45 am »

I attempted to exclude the Dr. HDMI, and though I was able to watch a few minutes of video intially, the minute I turned it off to get something, the handshake issues started, so badly that I couldn't get the PC to show on my TV till I plugged the Dr. HDMI back in.

One other note, though I'm not sure it makes any difference: the Samsung TV is one of two screens hooked up to my HTPC. The other is an AOC 1080p monitor that I don't use for video much at all. I do switch back and forth between it and the Samsung TV a lot though.

Edit: another thing I forgot in the original post was my cabling. They are all "Highwings 8K@60 HDMI Cable 48Gbps 2.1 High Speed Gaming HDMI Cord 4K120 144Hz" cables.

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JimH

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2023, 09:18:47 am »

I attempted to exclude the Dr. HDMI, and though I was able to watch a few minutes of video intially, the minute I turned it off to get something, the handshake issues started, so badly that I couldn't get the PC to show on my TV till I plugged the Dr. HDMI back in.
Did you disconnect the device completely?  Or just the power?

Disconnect the monitor for testing, too.

Try a Google search for JRiver MC31 dual monitor problems.
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2023, 11:25:12 am »

Yes, I had disconnected the device completely.

When I did this, I noticed something that may or may not be relevant overall. After disconnecting the Dr. HDMI, I got a blue screen on my TV, and the only way I could get a picture from the HTPC back was to unplug and plug back in the HDMI cable going into the TV itself. The problem with this is that turns off Samsung's "Input Signal Plus," which allows for RGB, full Nvidia colors, and HDR; if I turn Input Signal Plus back on, I get a blue screen on the TV again unless I plug the Dr. HDMI back in. I don't know if this has anything to do with dropped and repeated frames, but I find it interesting. Might be time for a higher-end TV, assuming that this one's cheapness is the problem.

I didn't notice any difference with unplugging my 1080p monitor or leaving it plugged into the GPU.
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Bob Sorel

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2023, 01:22:32 pm »

but I'm using JRVR on the 64 bit, 31.0.80 build of MC. Basically I'm getting intermittant dropped and repeated frames of late (see attached OSD jpegs), where I didn't before, and I can't figure out why. I've

  • tamed Windows Defender, including file type exclusions (mkv in this case) along with drives (all movies are on various external hard drives)
  • set my Nvidia settings to "Prefer Maximum Performance" and switched Vsync to "On"

Edit: I should also note that I'm not talking about right when a movie starts: I know some drops happen then. What you see in the OSD screenshots is after a Cntrl-R to reset the dropped frames and after each file played for about 15 minutes or so.
I am getting about the same amount of frame drops and repeats as you...I am also using build 80, though it has been happening well before that build. I am using a GTX 1080 card (not Ti) and have Defender turned off completely.

The difference is that I am NOT seeing any stuttering and in fact do not notice the drops/repeats at all, BUT every once in awhile I play a video that has a high amount of dropped frames (like 50 or 60) and I have no idea why. In these cases the problem that I experience is manifested as an AUDIO dropout, regardless of the format (I bitstream everything), so my assumption is that the high dropout rate is causing the audio dropout. There is no stuttering or any other weirdness happening during the short and sometimes subtle audio dropouts, so it has not been a big problem, but I thought that it should be reported. This happens with both 1080p and 2160p .MKV file playback and does not happen with any of my hardware boxes (Vero 4K+, eGreat, Zidoo Z9X, Medi8er, AppleTV 4K, or ROKU Ultra), so I do not believe that the audio dropouts are being caused by any of my other gear or cables...just the HTPC. My HTPC is running Windows 10 and basically was installed with just Windows 10, necessary drivers, and no other programs to muck things up...a totally dedicated HTPC.
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2023, 01:51:27 pm »

With my issue, sometimes I notice the frame drops/repeats and sometimes not. Lately, they've been noticeble, but I don't know if that's because it's a different movie or show or what. I don't have the audio thing at all.
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jmone

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2023, 04:16:18 pm »

I've seen these issue with similar setups, esp when trying to troubleshoot these sorts of issues with Murray (I'll copy him on this thread) in the display chain. 

How are you connecting the 2nd Monitor (your Marantz SR5010 only has a single HDMI Output)?  Is it a splitter?

I suspect that it is the 2nd Monitor and/or the EDID device and/or a Splitter in the display chain causing the issue...

To try to narrow it down, start with the most basic setup.
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jmone

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2023, 04:18:57 pm »

You may want to draw a diag of how everthing is hooked up.  Are you also running some device not at UHD?  eg is the Monitor just FHD and something downscaling the video?
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jmone

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2023, 04:23:49 pm »

I know you have "Video clock" checked, but are you bitstreaming or decoding?  Try "Tools --> Options --> Audio --> Bitstreaming = None" if not already set that way.
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2023, 04:37:17 pm »

Thanks jmone and everyone else for weighing in.

The monitor (the 1080p AOC) does not connect through the Marantz but directly to the GPU via a display port to HDMI dongle/jack and then via HDMI to the monitor itself.

The one HDMI out on the HTPC, as I said, goes from the GPU to the Dr. HDMI, then across the room to the Marantz, then to the Samsung TV, all with no bitstreaming enabled.

So, in simpler terms:

1. HTPC-->Display Port/HDMI dongle-->HDMI--> 1080p monitor at my desk
2. HTPC-->HDMI-->Dr. HDMI-->HDMI-->Marantz SR5010-->HDMI-->Samsung QLED across the room in front of the couch
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murray

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2023, 04:38:05 pm »

I attempted to exclude the Dr. HDMI, and though I was able to watch a few minutes of video intially, the minute I turned it off to get something, the handshake issues started, so badly that I couldn't get the PC to show on my TV till I plugged the Dr. HDMI back in.

One other note, though I'm not sure it makes any difference: the Samsung TV is one of two screens hooked up to my HTPC. The other is an AOC 1080p monitor that I don't use for video much at all. I do switch back and forth between it and the Samsung TV a lot though.

Edit: another thing I forgot in the original post was my cabling. They are all "Highwings 8K@60 HDMI Cable 48Gbps 2.1 High Speed Gaming HDMI Cord 4K120 144Hz" cables.

Ive been through similar stuff and spent thousands of $$$$$ to correct it. One thing I would like to to test is remove the second 1080p display for a start and set the video card to 8bit not 10bit. Restart everything and test.
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murray

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2023, 04:40:48 pm »

Thanks jmone and everyone else for weighing in.

The monitor (the 1080p AOC) does not connect through the Marantz but directly to the GPU via a display port to HDMI dongle/jack and then via HDMI to the monitor itself.

The one HDMI out on the HTPC, as I said, goes from the GPU to the Dr. HDMI, then across the room to the Marantz, then to the Samsung TV, all with no bitstreaming enabled.

So, in simpler terms:

1. HTPC-->Display Port/HDMI dongle-->HDMI--> 1080p monitor at my desk

I have posted a test you need to do, but first only have one display (the main one) connected to the GPU, having two out mucks EVERYTHING up, Ive spent weeks trying to do all that myself.......
2. HTPC-->HDMI-->Dr. HDMI-->HDMI-->Marantz SR5010-->HDMI-->Samsung QLED across the room in front of the couch
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2023, 04:47:21 pm »

Where do I set the GPU to 8 bit? Under "Output color depth" in the Nvidia control panel under "Change resolution?" There has only ever been an "8bpc" option there for me.

Edit: And in Windows Display Settings, bit depth is labeled as "8 bit."
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murray

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2023, 04:51:12 pm »

Where do I set the GPU to 8 bit? Under "Output color depth" in the Nvidia control panel under "Change resolution?" There has only ever been an "8bpc" option there for me.
You change to 8bits under change resolution. Your stats are saying you are outputting 10bits. The old AOC 1080 monitor isn't 10bit. But get it out of the chain, and only use one output from the video card, that is a must!!!!!
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2023, 05:06:19 pm »

OK, but again, it was always 8 bits in the Nvidia Control Panel and under Windows' Display Settings (see attached images). Not sure where the 10 bit output is coming from: some setting in MC?

And these screenshots were taken after the 1080p monitor was unplugged.
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JimH

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2023, 05:08:46 pm »

Once you've unplugged, power cycle everything.
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2023, 05:28:04 pm »

OK, rebooted the HTPC and turned off and back on the Marantz and Samsung TV.

What I had in the last two screenshots remained the same (the Nvidia "Change Resolution" screen and the Windows Display Settings), and I attached a new one after playing a couple of minutes of a 4K file. I'm not sure how to read everything in the OSD, but is it still saying 10 bits for the output, i.e., under "Output," the line "format rgb 10a2:" is that "10" in "10a2" equivalent to 10 bit?

Edit: I don't now see in the OSD bottom "Dithering 10 bit" so maybe some progress has been made?

Edit 2: I do now see that "Dithering 10 bit" in the OSD after turning on the same file for a minute.
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murray

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2023, 05:31:06 pm »

OK, rebooted the HTPC and turned off and back on the Marantz and Samsung TV.

What I had in the last two screenshots remained the same (the Nvidia "Change Resolution" screen and the Windows Display Settings), and I attached a new one after playing a couple of minutes of a 4K file. I'm not sure how to read everything in the OSD, but is it still saying 10 bits for the output, i.e., under "Output," the line "format rgb 10a2:" is that "10" in "10a2" equivalent to 10 bit?
Ok you have 10bit turned on in JRVR then if you have 8bit ticked in the video card. You have zero dropped frames in that shot, how come you dont have any on startup?
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2023, 05:33:12 pm »

Cntrl-R.

Edit: Also, in JRVR, the only place I'm seeing anything about 10 bit is under HDR and Enable 10 bit output for SDR videos, and that is unchecked and was during that screenshot from the 4K screenshot above.
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murray

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2023, 05:35:43 pm »

Cntrl-R.
Ok and what is the result now that you only have one display out of the GPU?
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2023, 06:01:56 pm »

I ran the same file for between 15 and 20 minutes and didn't have a single dropped or repeated frame, though I did see some artifacts or non-smooth bits of video, which of course might be the file itself.

I'm not going to be able to do any more testing tonight (it's about 7:00 P.M. in the US northeast), as I have a friend coming over and dinner to eat; but I'll test again tomorrow with a full GoT episode, as sometimes with the other monitor connected, I'd get dropped/repeated frames after about a half hour or more.

Thanks again, everyone, for the help!
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murray

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2023, 06:16:33 pm »

I ran the same file for between 15 and 20 minutes and didn't have a single dropped or repeated frame, though I did see some artifacts or non-smooth bits of video, which of course might be the file itself.

I'm not going to be able to do any more testing tonight (it's about 7:00 P.M. in the US northeast), as I have a friend coming over and dinner to eat; but I'll test again tomorrow with a full GoT episode, as sometimes with the other monitor connected, I'd get dropped/repeated frames after about a half hour or more.

Thanks again, everyone, for the help!
Yes 10bit in JRVR is under HDR, for now leave it unticked if the GPU is set to 8bit.

I spent months and months of testing ripping my hair out with the same issues as you!
As I say you must not have more than one HDMI or display port being used from the GPU it messes with EVERYTHING!
You cant mix a 4K display with a 1080p display its a massive problem!
If you want to have a 4K display with a 1080p display you must use an HDMI splitter set to 8bits and a downscale side to the 1080p monitor (never use two out from the video card, believe me)

A simple splitter like this will work or else you need everything in the chain to be HDMI 2.1, I changed my AVR, all the cables and monitor to match my JVC NZ9 proj to eliminate all the issues you are having.... but a simple splitter like this will do the same. https://www.amazon.com/Splitter-l-b-y-Vision-Atmos-Scaler/dp/B07VP37KMB/ref=sr_1_3?crid=28Y4XTCQKFSXF&keywords=EZCOO+HDMI+Splitter+1x2+4K+60Hz&qid=1699139745&sprefix=ezcoo+hdmi+splitter+1x2+4k+60hz%2Caps%2C248&sr=8-3
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2023, 06:46:38 pm »

Thanks again, murray: I'll probably pick that splitter up. Where do you put the splitter in the chain?

HTPC-->HDMI-->Dr. HDMI-->HDMI-->Marantz SR5010-->HDMI-->Samsung QLED

Between the first HDMI and the Dr. HDMI?
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murray

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2023, 06:58:42 pm »

Thanks again, murray: I'll probably pick that splitter up. Where do you put the splitter in the chain?

HTPC-->HDMI-->Dr. HDMI-->HDMI-->Marantz SR5010-->HDMI-->Samsung QLED

Between the first HDMI and the Dr. HDMI?
Honestly I dont know anything about the Dr HDMI and where to put that in the chain, I really dont know why you even need that and I would try to test the splitter without the Dr HDMI, sometimes the splitter can help handshake issues.....
HTPC > splitter > HDMI one out to the main 4K display.
Splitter HDMI 2 out to the AVR with scaling set to 1080p anad the correct EDID for the audio (from the splitter user manual). Use the AVR out to the 1080p monitor.
Im sure this will work for you, but try without the Dr in the chain......
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jmone

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2023, 12:09:52 am »

+1 from Murray.  The splitter is also an EDID device.  First confirm the issue is resolved by just having one Display connected.  From there you can add complexity till the issue returns and you will know what to avoid.
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2023, 08:14:47 am »

A quick update: though I didn't have a ton of time to test yesterday, I did play a full episode of my 4K Game of Thrones set and ended up with 2 dropped frames and 4 repeated frames with all the same settings as discussed on Saturday and with the 1080p monitor still disconnected (I haven't plugged it back in since unplugging it and rebooting/power cycling).

I'm starting to think it might be the Dr. HDMI, or at least the setting I have it on, though I can't seem to get it to work on the EDID copy setting I've used for years (White 8 in the Dr. HDMI's 40 possible settings).

At any rate, I think I'm going to go ahead and try the switch murray suggested, though it won't arrive till Wednesday. I'll report back when I get it set up.

Thanks again for all the help!
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Bob Sorel

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2023, 10:52:48 am »

A quick update: though I didn't have a ton of time to test yesterday, I did play a full episode of my 4K Game of Thrones set and ended up with 2 dropped frames and 4 repeated frames with all the same settings as discussed on Saturday and with the 1080p monitor still disconnected (I haven't plugged it back in since unplugging it and rebooting/power cycling).

I'm starting to think it might be the Dr. HDMI, or at least the setting I have it on, though I can't seem to get it to work on the EDID copy setting I've used for years (White 8 in the Dr. HDMI's 40 possible settings).

At any rate, I think I'm going to go ahead and try the switch murray suggested, though it won't arrive till Wednesday. I'll report back when I get it set up.

Thanks again for all the help!
The switch that Murray is talking about is well known with the Epson LS12000 crowd, of which I am a part. I personally own 3 of them (EZCOO HDMI switcher) and in my case they do not affect the problem of frame drops one way or the other. I have pulled them out of my setup and I am still getting an average of 6 - 8 dropped frames per movie and 4 - 5 repeated frames...I have no idea what is considered "normal", as I only check during the credits and I do not reset them at any time. The EZCOO works really great and you can change the EDID by loading custom firmwares created by @xnappo over at AVS Forum, as they are often used to help people dial in LLDV tone mapping and to "fool" the upstream devices into "believing" that the projector is Dolby Vision capable. Just read the first few posts in the LS12000/LS11000 owner's thread at AVS if you want to know more, and then follow the links in @xnappo's signature. In my system, they do not affect ANYTHING in a negative way and simply do the work that they were intended to do.

Unfortunately, the inclusion or exclusion of the EZCOO splitter has no effect at all on my audio dropout problem, which I believed might be caused by excessive frame drops, but based on watching movies this weekend, my theory is wrong, as I had 4 distinctive audio drops in a very long movie (2:45:00), yet I only had 5 frame drops, so it is back to drawing board for me. Since this is probably the wrong thread for posting audio drops, I won't beat this dead horse here and will try to figure things out myself.

I would, however, still like to know what is considered a "normal" amount of frame drops/repeats, as I will be monitoring them from now on.

Oh, and BTW, I would recommend checking your HDMI cables for your problem, as we have found that these kinds of devices (HDMI switcher, Dr. HDMI, HDFury, etc.) are VERY fussy about cable quality and bandwidth. Most of us use certified 48gbs cables, and even then we have found that certain brands and types cause more issues than others.
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jmone

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2023, 01:36:51 pm »

Out of the box, and on modern nvidia GPU's, you can expect a frame drop or repeat when bitstreaming the audio at around one per 50min to a single monitor when the frame rates are matched to the display frequency for 23.976fps material (and should get no audio drop outs).  If MC is doing the decoding of the audio with VideoClock ON, you should get no frame drops or repeats.

YMMV with multiple displays as I've no idea how the system is designed to deal with the drift with two different monitors (as they will be different to each other) but I'm guessing it will be more and more frequent, and one could drop and the other repeat and/or audio drops for all I know to bring it all back into sync.
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2023, 02:04:42 pm »

@Bob Sorel

Yes, it might not be the Dr. HDMI, but I've had some problems with it lately (particularly in getting the EDID from the TV, a problem I didn't used to have), so I thought maybe that was it. It might very well be cables, or it might be an Nvidia driver, something I've had problems with before.

I have had it not drop frames at all (minus when I first start the movie, of course) with the other 1080p monitor connected, with these cabels, and with the Dr. HDMI in the chain. It could also be an app doing something on the PC, though everything I can think of to turn off has no effect.

Anyway, I just ordered some replacement "Cable Matters" cables from Amazon, one of the cable brands the HDFury (makers of the Dr. HDMI) people recommended on the AVS forum. We'll see what happens . . . .
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2023, 02:09:29 pm »

@jmone

Just in case I'm not misunderstanding you: I'm not using both my Samsung TV and the 1080p monitor at the same time. I switch back and forth between them, the latter for library maintenance, tagging, and general computer use, and the former mostly for watching movies or listening to music in 5.2 surround.

Or were you talking about Bob Sorel's set-up?
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jmone

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2023, 02:16:35 pm »

I'm talking about when the PC is seeing multiple devices Video and Audio devices that needs to all be kept in sync.  Each device has it's own clock and they all (unfortunatly) run at slightly different speeds so you get a drift between them all that needs to be corrected every now and again.  On a PC, the "master clock" is that used for the Audio controller, so as the video clock then drifts it will end up forcing a video frame drop or repeat to keep it all in sync at some point.  This is all pretty straight forward with a single Audio and Video device leading to a typical drop or repeat every 50min or so.  I've no idea what the impact is when having multiple or other devices in the chain, which is why I suggest starting the trouble shooting using the most basic setup and check that it working, then adding complexity to then find what the offending device is.
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2023, 02:18:21 pm »

Got it. Figured I was misreading you but wanted to double-check.  :)
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murray

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2023, 02:31:57 pm »

Got it. Figured I was misreading you but wanted to double-check.  :)
You can still have issues even if the monitor is connected and turned off, testing needs to be the most simple and basic you can make it, as Nathan mentioned!

What I would be doing is buy all new HDMI cables and remove the DrHDMI for testing, only add one thing back at a time and re test. You maynot need the DrHDMI with new cables. Whats the longest run?

I have had two products now from HDfury and both caused audio issues for me. The Vertex was terrible I couldnt bitstream at all with it for years, as soon as I finally removed it I was able to bitstream. I never ever would believe anyone who said remove it, their products are expensive and I never thought it was the Vertex causing my audio issues.... But it was!

I then bought a $600 splitter from them to replace the Vertex, it too caused audio issues, that too was removed after ripping my hair out in frustration....

I have been through the mill with this stuff and spent months and $$$$$$, I now have no audio issues and I run two displays but everything in the chain is 2.1, but it  cost me thousands of $$$$ to get there....
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2023, 03:14:08 pm »

@murray

Yes, as I said in my penultimate message, I just ordered new cables, by "Cable Matters," all 8k, 2.1, 48gbs, etc. I'll definitely try them with no Dr. HDMI first (and no 1080p monitor) and see if that solves handshake issues, as right now, as I noted somewhere above, I get nothing but a blue screen on my TV without the Dr. HDMI.

My longest run is a 25' cable, and the new cable I ordered has an extra power option, which may help (or not). It all comes Wednesday, so I'll do my inital test sometime then.
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Bob Sorel

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2023, 04:49:14 pm »

@murray

Yes, as I said in my penultimate message, I just ordered new cables, by "Cable Matters," all 8k, 2.1, 48gbs, etc. I'll definitely try them with no Dr. HDMI first (and no 1080p monitor) and see if that solves handshake issues, as right now, as I noted somewhere above, I get nothing but a blue screen on my TV without the Dr. HDMI.

My longest run is a 25' cable, and the new cable I ordered has an extra power option, which may help (or not). It all comes Wednesday, so I'll do my inital test sometime then.
Yes, the AVS people have had very good luck with "Cables Matters" cables, and they sell for a good price.

@jmone, thanks for the info...I will strip my system down to the bare bones and see what happens. Your advice is the right way to track down many types of problems, along with "what has changed recently" method... :) I know you are right!

If I discover any valuable information I will be sure to report back here.
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jmone

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2023, 09:30:53 pm »

Good luck!  I'm sure you will find the offending bit.
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2023, 09:22:11 pm »

OK, I got my new "Cable Matters" cables (this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08GQDKR81?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1 and this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08KSKQ8CC?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1) and went simple with the initial set-up:

HTPC-->new HDMI cable (25')-->Marantz SR5010 AVR-->new HDMI cable (6.6')-->Samsung QLED TV

and no Dr. HDMI or switch in the chain.

I played about 20 minutes of a 4K version of Game of Thrones and have already got 19 dropped frames and 19 repeated, after resetting both to 0 after the initial start of the show. Tried a couple of other 4k files on different drives, and it was about the same number of dropped and repeated frames after roughly 15 minutes or so.

That would leave the AVR or the HTPC.

The video settings on the Marantz are as follows:

--under HDMI Setup:
  • Auto Lip Sync = Off
  • HDMI Audio Out = AVR
  • Video Output = Monitor 1
  • HDMI Control = Off
  • --ARC = Off
  • --HDMI Pass Through = Off
--under Output Settings
  • Video Mode = Movie
  • Video Conversion = Off

Not sure what to check on the PC: all thumbnails are built in MC, Windows Defender is tamed, there is no other antivirus or malware checker installed. I do have a cloud service (Livedrive) that continuously backs up, but I'm pretty sure it's not backing up the drive this file is on; and I've turned it off before when I've had frame-drop/repeat problems to no avail. While one of these 4k files is running, the CPU is at 8%, memory at 49% (32 gb or ram: mostly with MC and Livedrive).

I'm out of ideas.

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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2023, 09:50:51 pm »

Well, after all that, I may have found the culprit in the Marantz AVR:

HDMI Control = Off
--ARC = Off
--HDMI Pass Through = Off

I turned all these on, connected the 6.6 cable to an ARC port on the Samsung, played the same Game of Thrones file, and had only 1 dropped frame and no repeats after 15 minutes or so, whereas before there were 19 each of dropped and repeated.

I will test some more tonight and report back, probably tomorrow night. I'm cautiously optimistic!
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murray

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2023, 10:06:44 pm »

Well, after all that, I may have found the culprit in the Marantz AVR:

HDMI Control = Off
--ARC = Off
--HDMI Pass Through = Off

I turned all these on, connected the 6.6 cable to an ARC port on the Samsung, played the same Game of Thrones file, and had only 1 dropped frame and no repeats after 15 minutes or so, whereas before there were 19 each of dropped and repeated.

I will test some more tonight and report back, probably tomorrow night. I'm cautiously optimistic!

Did you shut down everything after making the new cable connections, especially the PC?
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2023, 11:09:39 pm »

@murray

I had done so, yes.

My optimism was premature, as I just watched two halves of a 4k GoT episode, and both halves, after 20-25 minutes, had roughly 6 dropped and 9 repeated frames.

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murray

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2023, 11:33:16 pm »

@murray

I had done so, yes.

My optimism was premature, as I just watched two halves of a 4k GoT episode, and both halves, after 20-25 minutes, had roughly 6 dropped and 9 repeated frames.
Although it doesnt help but it at least proves you dont need a Dr HDMI now, however we have to get to the bottom of this story. Hopefully Nathan can shed some light on this story!
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2023, 10:59:29 pm »

I thought I'd give an update about this issue.

I ended up getting the switch recommended above set up as follows:

Nvidia 3060-->HDMI-->Switch-->
                                                 HDMI-->Marantz SR5010-->HDMI-->Samsung QLED TV all with full 4K/60hz and 5.2 sound
                                                 HDMI-->1080p monitor

The switch seems to work well, with no handshake issues anywhere so far.  ;)

I haven't had a ton of time to test the past week, but I did take note of Manni's post here (https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,137375.0.html) and found that I maybe get a few less dropped and repeated frames if I set up JRVR like he suggests (i.e., unchecking the "Use the display's HDR . . ."), but it's still happening (and frankly, I prefer the color palette in my TV with this option checked). At any rate, with his settings (minus bitstreaming), I was hopeful, but on an attempt tonight, I got about the same number of dropped and repeated frames as I typically get: 6 or so of each after about 10 minutes of a 4K mkv.

For the hell of it, I went back to madvr and the settings/profile I used to use (getting rendering ms. in the 19-21 range for a 23.97 4K file: see OSD on the attached image, just for reference) and got zero dropped, repeated, or delayed frames after roughly 30 minutes of a 4K Game of Thrones episode.

I'm wondering if Manni's possible solution might be good for JRVR too. Something seems to be amiss, at least on certain set-ups, given that I have no problems with madvr, other than I like the colors and overall image better in JRVR these days.
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timwtheov

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2023, 09:42:22 pm »

I posted another update here: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=137375.msg952589#msg952589

The short of it is that the most recent Nvidia driver (and it may have been the last couple) was the culprit it seems. I installed one from May, the one jmone has had no problems with (531.79), and after nearly two hours of watching three different mkvs, both 4K and 1080p, I had ZERO dropped or repeated frames with HDR passthrough enabled and high-end settings in JRVR (and of course with "Prefer Maximum Performance" set and Vsync "on" in the Nvidia Control Panel).
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jmone

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2023, 01:40:29 am »

Sounds like you have all the right "magic" ingredients!
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Manni

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2023, 04:35:50 am »

I posted another update here: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=137375.msg952589#msg952589

The short of it is that the most recent Nvidia driver (and it may have been the last couple) was the culprit it seems. I installed one from May, the one jmone has had no problems with (531.79), and after nearly two hours of watching three different mkvs, both 4K and 1080p, I had ZERO dropped or repeated frames with HDR passthrough enabled and high-end settings in JRVR (and of course with "Prefer Maximum Performance" set and Vsync "on" in the Nvidia Control Panel).

Glad it's working for you (for now). Using an outdated driver is a workaround, not a solution, unless you keep your HTPC frozen in time. This needs to be fixed properly. It's not a driver issue as there is no such problem with madVR.
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Hendrik

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2023, 05:06:18 am »

Changing the driver fixes the behavior. This is clearly a driver-related problem. The behavior of other software is entirely irrelevant to that discussion.
That doesn't mean it can't possibly be worked around in some fashion, but it doesn't change that some change in the driver is causing this to occur when it was previously (eg. with older drivers) fine.
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Manni

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Re: Dropped and Repeated Frames
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2023, 05:13:57 am »

Changing the driver fixes the behavior. This is clearly a driver-related problem. The behavior of other software is entirely irrelevant to that discussion.

Or it could be that there is no problem in the new driver, just that JRiver needs to adapt its JRVR code so that it works with recent drivers too.

Other software give a frame of reference. If there is no issue with madVR, MPC-VR and other renderers, don't you agree that the problem lies with JRVR?

I don't see how getting stuck with an old driver is a solution. No user can report an issue to nVidia if only one software has the issue.

Let's discuss in the thread I opened, so as not to double post, I won't post here anymore.
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