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Author Topic: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content  (Read 1306 times)

SteveR100

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25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« on: December 29, 2023, 04:09:46 pm »

Hi All

The 'Display Settings Automatic Change Mode: On' feature plays all 25 fps content at 50fps (Double frame-rate). Is anyone aware of an option to change this so that 25 fps content can run at its native frame rate instead please?

Many thanks in advance.

Steve

EDIT: This is also affecting 30fps > 60fps

EDIT: Bob Sorel's great suggestion to re-word my opening question:

How do I get 25 fps source material to be displayed at 25 fps in "auto" mode, and where would I find that setting?" I really don't want to manually switch frame rates when 50 fps is simply wrong for 25 fps in "auto" mode...that would be a major inconvenience.
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murray

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2023, 05:06:03 pm »

You can set it up and force it to play in 25fps if you wish.
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SteveR100

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2023, 07:02:32 pm »

Well, that's great... How please?
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murray

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2023, 11:37:15 pm »

Just go into resolution settings and change from auto fps to manual, there you can select each frame rate and set to whatever you wish. Really its more correct to play all 25 content at 50 and I just leave mine on auto.
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jmone

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2023, 01:51:08 am »

Yeah - play 25fps @ 50hz.  Auto should do this.
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Bob Sorel

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2023, 05:19:24 am »

Are you talking about the GPU's resolution settings or are there resolution settings in MC that control the resolution? With external media player boxes, the resolution is set in the app's settings, and normally you can tell the player to send all video out at a fixed resolution or you can tell the player to "follow the native resolution" of the source material. The OP has a very valid question/concern, as 25fps video should automatically be sent at 25 fps, and 50 fps video should be sent at 50 fps. The problem with sending 25 fps video out at 50 fps is that it causes the "soap opera effect", something that I really notice and hate. In my humble opinion, "auto" mode should ALWAYS duplicate the frame rate of the source material and not to double it up. For gaming, the higher frame rates look great, but for film watchers, it kinda sucks due to the SOE. I mean, 24 fps film is not doubled to 48 hz, right? So neither should 25 fps get doubled to 50 hz, or at least there should be an option as to the definition of "auto" and how it handles various frame rates, as different people will have different needs.

So, the question should be "How do I get 25 fps source material to be displayed at 25 fps in "auto" mode, and where would I find that setting?" I really don't want to manually switch frame rates when 50 fps is simply wrong for 25 fps in "auto" mode...that would be a major inconvenience.

Edit: I cannot access my HTPC this weekend, so I can't search the program to find a solution right now. Hopefully there is already a way to fix this problem, but if not, maybe Hendrik would consider adding options or changing how resolution works in auto mode in MC.
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SteveR100

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2023, 08:36:10 am »

murray & jmone, Many thanks for your reply but I am less interested in your opinions (regardless of how correct/incorrect they may be) and more interested in sending video content in its original frame rate for the TV to handle its magic. I'm not going to inter into an argumentative discussion on the correct use of content transmission. Respectfully, all I need here is support from JRiver staff, not opinions.

Needless to say, doubling frame rates without frame-interpolation is pointless and simply taxes the GPU needlessly. Thankfully my TV ignores the duplicate frame for its own native interpolation which I have constantly enabled.

Also, using the manual settings, by which I assume you mean the 'custom' mode; 1.) ruins all other content that you may want to set to automatic (where this feature functions correctly) and 2.) interferes with resolution where you would want source resolution to dynamically be maintained.

Perhaps a feature request would be good hear to add a 'Same as Source' option on each of the manual settings. This would then allow me to use the 'custom' mode of this feature correctly.

I think a feature request for manual/automatic logic for each of the nodes would also make the 'custom' mode of this feature work better with reality.

EDIT: This is also affecting 30fps > 60fps
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BryanC

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2023, 01:25:50 pm »

Needless to say, doubling frame rates without frame-interpolation is pointless and simply taxes the GPU needlessly.

According to Hendrik, this is untrue, it makes no performance difference.

For perfectly fluid playback you still want to do that, but there is no performance difference.
I run my TV on 100 (for 25/50 fps) or 120 Hz (for 24/30/60), and it doesn't cost any more then perfectly matched rates would - but it avoids rate changes in many situations, as 120 is just my desktop rate, so all I need to swap for is PAL content.
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SteveR100

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2023, 01:36:20 pm »

Again, I do not wish to enter into an argument about a subject which is irrelevant to my question. Please read my original OP question at post #1.

All this pointless irrelevant discourse is not getting my question answered.

Does anyone know of any way to get real support for this product? All I need is a simple question answered by JRiver staff.
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lepa

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2023, 01:54:54 pm »

Not a staff member as per requested but set 'Display Settings Automatic Change Mode: Custom' instead of 'On' and then set the resolutions and refresh rates as you like
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SteveR100

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2023, 02:00:13 pm »

Thanks for your reply lepa. But, again this has already been described in detail why this doesn't function correctly without affecting resolution which should remain dynamic (automatic). Besides, I did try this earlier today but the custom setting that i set for PAL 25/50 is ignored and it still doubles the frame rate.

Does anyone know of any way to get real support for this product? All I need is a simple question answered by JRiver staff. Many thanks.
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Awesome Donkey

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2023, 02:09:55 pm »

All I need is a simple question answered by JRiver staff. Many thanks.

Currently everyone at JRiver is off for the holidays until the 2nd. So it could be a few more days so you may need to exercise a little patience.

That said, I do agree with everyone else here.
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Bob Sorel

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2023, 02:19:16 pm »

According to Hendrik, this is untrue, it makes no performance difference.
Hi Bryan,

I am not the most technical person here, but I can assure you that I can very easily see a difference between 25 fps presented at it native rate versus at a doubled rate (50 fps). The first time I ran into this with MC I thought that my front projector had somehow changed settings and was displaying what I considered to be a HUGE amount of SOE....I blamed it on my projector. As I hunted down the problem, I found that the very same video displayed by 3 other hardware media devices (Vero 4K+, eGreat, and Zidoo Z9X) were all free of SOE. When I checked to see what the projector reported as incoming signal frame rates, the 3 devices correctly sent out 25fps, while MC sent out 50 fps, also verified in MC by using the CNTRL/J function. Maybe the problem exists only with front projectors...I don't really know due to my lack of technical knowledge, but I can UNDENIABLY see the difference between 25 fps and 50 fps, with or without Frame Insertion turned on.

Again, in my humble opinion, and apparently in the opinion of the hardware player manufacturers, the correct way to handle resolution/frame rate output is to have one control that sets the maximum resolution/frame rate (so that the output never exceeds the capability of the display) and then a second control which allows the player:
1. to either be "hard wired" to output the max resolution/frame rate regardless of the source resolution/frame rate, or
2. to have the player follow the source encoded frame rate.

In both cases, there is no option that doubles the frame rate of ANY source frame rate, so to be honest with you, I don't know why such behavior would ever be needed or wanted...maybe it is for some other type of display that I have no familiarity with.

So in that respect I humbly disagree with Hendrik (if that is truly his position)...It most certainly DOES make a difference, or at least to me and a ton of other people from AVS (the subject of frame rate doubling has been debated on many occasions, as well as the use of FI in an attempt to mitigate such problems).

@SteveR100, please be patient. This is a holiday weekend, so it might not even be read by the JRiver team until Tuesday. The discussion and mounting replies in this thread are actually healthy and will help insure that the thread is addressed at a later time.

Happy New Year to all!
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SteveR100

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2023, 02:31:48 pm »

Many thanks for your reply and for letting me know that everyone is off for holiday. This is truly a unique experience and a huge waste of everyone's time here.

I will also assume by your answer that this forum is the only way to obtain support... just like open-source software. Anyone would believe that I didn't pay for the software.

Regarding your comments about your opinions. I'll repeat again and again and again... No one's opinion is sought here... just an answer to a technical question.

Although, I am quite surprised here by the number of people who believe that sending a duplicate frame to a TV will actually do anything. My TV can interpolate 1200 fps. the duplicate source frame is ignored otherwise it would make useless any smooth motion frame-tweening. Could you imagine 600 frames of smooth motion in 0.5 seconds and then 0.5 seconds of still motion. Doesn't make sense does it.

Perhaps all of this is a waste of everyone's time as it would appear that many forum members here are only interested in stroking their own ego instead helping with facts like the instructions for how to achieve a work-around for this function's flawed logic.

It looks like I'll go back to HPC-BE for now as it does not suffer with the same logic issues. Many thanks to everyone who understands this situation and has chimed in.
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zybex

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2023, 02:41:06 pm »

Some AMD display chip drivers will automatically send 50fps for 25fps modes. NVidia may do the same, I don't know. There's likely an option to control it.

You've been told that JR staff is on vacation. You asked your question yesterday and you're already bitching today about the lack of support? Did you pay for 24h SLA or something? Good luck getting that kind of service. Try asking AMD for an answer and see how long they take to reply, if they reply.

You need to reflect on who exactly is stroking his own ego here. So many misunderstandings on what SOE is, how it happens, how a panel up-syncs and displays a given source rate to its native rate (not that fake 1200 marketing hz), what freq-doubling actually accomplishes, and so on and on. Unbelievable. Also, newsflash: you actually like and want SOE, which is produced by interpolation (nothing wrong with that).
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jmone

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2023, 03:07:16 pm »

How do I get 25 fps source material to be displayed at 25 fps in "auto" mode, and where would I find that setting?"

Presently, 25/50 and 30/60 are grouped as PAL and NTSC respectively, so you only get to choose one frequency choice for each of these frame rates.  It would be a feature request if you would want these decoupled so you could have 25fps --> 25hz and still have 50fps --> 50hz.

Hendrik and Matt (as well as the other devs) read these posts, so may respond next year after the holidays.
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JimH

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2023, 04:08:26 pm »

Steve,
On a forum, as in other parts of your life, people will sometimes give you their opinions, free of charge.  You can't and shouldn't try to stop that.  They're often valuable.  So roll with it.  You've got some great minds helping here.
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Bob Sorel

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2024, 10:13:14 am »

Presently, 25/50 and 30/60 are grouped as PAL and NTSC respectively, so you only get to choose one frequency choice for each of these frame rates.  It would be a feature request if you would want these decoupled so you could have 25fps --> 25hz and still have 50fps --> 50hz.

Hendrik and Matt (as well as the other devs) read these posts, so may respond next year after the holidays.
Or then again, maybe not... :(
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eve

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2024, 03:02:47 pm »

According to Hendrik, this is untrue, it makes no performance difference.

This is the way.

~100 and ~120 > Display

Not trying to shove my opinion in here but, it's the most ideal solution and personally, using an LG OLED I find this + all motion processing on the display off (or BFI on, depending on the material) to be better looking in motion. It's either a placebo or the higher rates disengage some low input framerate processing that's not disable-able (even through service menus)?



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murray

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2024, 04:03:55 pm »

Actually I would prefer to see the fps in JRVR to match the correct frame rate when set to auto, rather than any doubling as they currently have for 25 and 30 material.
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Bob Sorel

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2024, 04:15:29 pm »

Actually I would prefer to see the fps in JRVR to match the correct frame rate when set to auto, rather than any doubling as they currently have for 25 and 30 material.
Yes, I agree 100%. Playback should MATCH the source frame rate by default. If JRiver would like to include OPTIONS for frame rate doubling, tripling, or whatever, then I am more than fine with that, but by default playback should match source frame rate. I have seen several videos that have 25 FPS as the source frame rate, and to be honest, they look terrible (to me, anyway) when the frame rate is doubled. This opinion is based on front projection, not flat panels.
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murray

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2024, 08:18:01 pm »

Yes, I agree 100%. Playback should MATCH the source frame rate by default. If JRiver would like to include OPTIONS for frame rate doubling, tripling, or whatever, then I am more than fine with that, but by default playback should match source frame rate. I have seen several videos that have 25 FPS as the source frame rate, and to be honest, they look terrible (to me, anyway) when the frame rate is doubled. This opinion is based on front projection, not flat panels.

This is a fantastic idea and really the way it should be designed. madvr can frame match perfectly, what goes in comes out the same. This has to be easy to implement. Im not sure why JR has never allowed this in the settings, has no one ever questioned this before?
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zybex

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2024, 01:11:15 pm »

MC does do frame-rate matching, as you call it, it's in the Video settings. It does however treat 25fps as 50 and 30fps as 60 by inserting a duplicate frame. For film content (24/23.976 fps) there's no frame duplication. If you use MadVR custom settings you can set it up to change the display mode (instead of MC) and thus get all 24/25/50/30/60 modes. That doesn't seem to be possible with JRVR.

After some thinking, I agree that doing frame duplication with Smooth Motion (frame interpolation) enabled on the TV will cause severe juddering and weird SOE on action scenes.

blue - source frames sent by the PC
black - duplicate frames inserted by the TV
red - interpolated frames inserted by the TV

With a 25Hz signal and a 100hz native panel (10ms per frame), the TV will need to do a 4:1 pull-up either by repeating each frame 3 times or generating 3 interpolated frames.
25Hz signal, Smooth Motion disabled:
F1-F1-F1-F1--F2-F2-F2-F2--F3-F3-F3-F3--F4 ...
25Hz signal, Smooth Motion enabled:
F1-i12a-i12b-i12c--F2-i23a-i23b-i23c--F3-i34a-i34b-i34c--F4 ...

With frame duplication a 25fps source is converted to 50Hz on the PC and then the TV does another 2:1 pull-up:
50Hz signal, Smooth Motion disabled:
F1-F1-F1-F1--F2-F2-F2-F2--F3-F3-F3-F3--F4 ...
50Hz signal, Smooth Motion enabled:
F1-i11-F1-i12--F2-i22-F2-i23--F3-i33-F3-i34--F4 ...

And here lies the problem - half of the interpolated frames are just copies of the previous frame (i11 = F1->F1 = F1), so the sequence becomes:
F1-F1-F1-i12--F2-F2-F2-i23--F3-F3-F3-i34--F4 ...

So all the motion that is supposed to be spread out by interpolation between F1 and F2 is actually done only in 1 out of 4 frames, instead of 3 out of 4. This means each frame is static for 30ms and then comes a 10ms interpolated frame halving the distance between the 2 source frames, instead of the proper spread-out interpolation you get with a 25fps signal. I think this results in motion juddering that most people will be able to see.

Note: Black Frame Insertion (=back light strobing) without frame interpolation will likely cause a similar effect (probably reduced), the difference is that it's our brain doing the interpolation.

@Hendrik, comments on this?
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Bob Sorel

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2024, 05:16:59 pm »

Edited on 1/9/24 for clarity.

MC does do frame-rate matching, as you call it, it's in the Video settings.
Great! ...a good start!
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It does treat 25fps as 50 and 30fps as 60 by inserting a duplicate frame.
Bad idea. I specifically DO NOT WANT any duplicate frames inserted. I want 25 fps to be presented at 25 fps, not 50 fps. Let ME deal with the consequences, please.
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For film content (24/23.976 fps) there's no frame duplication.
...as it should be. Why the change in policy at 25 and 30??? I don't understand the reasoning as to why frame doubling is done in the first place.
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If you use MadVR custom settings you can set it up to change the display mode (instead of MC) and thus get all 24/25/50/30/60 modes.
Yes, you are right again. When I run into 25 and IF I run into 30 fps source material (I have not as yet), I am forced to switch from MC to ANY other program and/or device (not just madVR) in order to have the proper frame rate employed. This sucks, as I would like to be using MC exclusively.
Quote
That doesn't seem to be possible with JRVR.
Bingo! That is why this thread exists:

1. To find out WHY frame rate doubling is happening in the first place.
2. To make exact frame rate matching the default  "AUTO" choice.
3. If there is a good reason for it, then make frame rate doubling an optional choice.

I am not the brightest bulb on the tree, but it seems to me that it should be a relatively easy task to simply make the default  AUTO mode USER EDITABLE, so that each person can set up the defaults as he pleases, a win for everybody.

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zybex

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2024, 05:31:22 pm »

The reasons for frame doubling are historical, from before there was any fancy TVs with frame interpolation capability - that's a fairly recent development in consumer electronics. Most sets were either 50 or 60Hz fixed frequency panels, so the output device always had to pull-up all source rates to the supported display rate. This was usually done via frame duplication - for PC graphics cards, it's just a matter of presenting the same buffer again for the next frame. Even nowadays most laptop screens only support a fixed 60 or 75Hz rate, so the hardware or software needs to adjust. The 25/30 to 50/60 frame duplication was always the norm on playback software/hardware because it's an easy change that made content compatible with most sets out there. It may be time to get rid of it as all hardware now takes care of that if needed, and it messes up interpolation.

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I don't understand the reasoning as to why frame doubling is done in the first place.
Duplicate frames will still be inserted by the TV itself if interpolation is off, as it needs to follow the native refresh rate of the panel. A 120Hz panel needs 120 frames per second (but VRR tech is now changing that as well), regardless of how those frames are generated. So with interpolation OFF it doesn't matter if you duplicate frames on the source or let the TV do it, the result is the same.
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Bob Sorel

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2024, 05:42:16 pm »

Thanks for the explanation zybex!

I agree with you that it is probably time to ditch that kind of thinking these days. If there is anyone who still needs/wants doubling, then leaving the option for it would be welcome by those people, but I think it is time to get rid of doubling as the default...just my opinion.
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murray

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2024, 09:01:01 pm »

Thanks for the explanation zybex!

I agree with you that it is probably time to ditch that kind of thinking these days. If there is anyone who still needs/wants doubling, then leaving the option for it would be welcome by those people, but I think it is time to get rid of doubling as the default...just my opinion.
I to would love to see doubling removed, its so old fashion these days! Hopefully Hendrik can update MC 32 to fix this old historical setup that seems to be running on MC 31 and all the other versions before that.
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Hendrik

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2024, 02:11:01 am »

To clarify first, there is no "doubling" or anything like that, a video indicates that a frame should be shown for 40ms (at 25 FPS), if the screen refreshes once or twice in that timespan does not change how long the image is shown - and thats all a video renderer does, it shows the image for the time specified in the video file.
Based on this alone, there is no difference to the resulting image, as long as every frame is shown right as long as it should be. The video renderer only has one job, show the frame as long as it should be shown. And as pointed out above - this costs literally zero performance, as its just not rendering a new image, its not rendering the old one twice (hence no "doubling")

Now, its certainly possible that some display devices can't really cope with that, while many others to. Its actually a big testing category for TVs, if they can properly handle integer-multiple refresh rates, or even mismatched ones. Many modern TVs can extract 25 from 50/100, or even 24 from 30/60 without losing any features, which is important when playing using their built-in apps or cheap playback devices like FireTVs, as things like Netflix/Disney+ etc will generally not do refresh rate matching. Instead, the TV can detect the pattern and just handle it.

As for why it is how it is?
Lets start with 30/60 first, because its more obvious there. 30 fps content is practically non-existent. You have 24 fps movies, and 60i TV transmissions. 60i may present as 30 fps, but during playback you want it to come out as 60 fps. There might be the odd home video at 30 fps, but commercially produced content at 30 fps is exceedingly rare, and any content flagged as 30 has a high chance to actually want to play at 60 after deinterlacing.

25/50 is more complicated. The same interlacing problem applies for (older) TV transmissions, but at the same time, movies are pure 25 fps (and sometimes TV too). 50 is the safe choice that has both play reasonably well, perfect even with many TVs that handle it, and might historically just have been copied from the NTSC 30/60 option as-is anyway.
These settings actually exist longer even then I have worked on MC, and I've never really given them much thought because I've always had a TV that does the thing talked about above anyway, and even living in a PAL country myself, 25 fps content it still rare, as I don't watch our local TV.

For 25 in particular, there is also the aforementioned problem with some displays actually not being highly compatible with such a mode, and 50 working better.

So what do we do?
I can certainly add separate 25/30 options to manual mode, and when unset use the 50/60 options for compatibility. What I'm wary of is changing the default automatic behavior to favor 25/30. Even if we have some information in the library these days that a video is interlaced (which we never had before recently, which would've made a proper choice impossible), I feel like playing an interlaced 50i file at 25 accidentally is worse then playing a 25p file at 50, which in over a decade of MC i don't remember anyone complaining about before (although I'm not ruling out having forgotten over the years)

Of course manual mode should be just fine for you guys, Automatic is essentially the same but selecting the refresh rates to use on its own.

Needless to say, doubling frame rates without frame-interpolation is pointless and simply taxes the GPU needlessly. Thankfully my TV ignores the duplicate frame for its own native interpolation which I have constantly enabled.

As was point out before, and confirmed by me, it does not in fact tax the GPU at all. And if your TV handles it perfectly otherwise, 50Hz is actually favorable, as it gives you smoother menus, and an extra refresh cycle to deal with frame drops/repeats, if they happen to be needed.

In general, this behavior does not affect people with display device without any processing (PC monitors, many projectors, TVs without interpolation, or disabled interpolation), or those with processing that handles this just fine (many TVs)
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zybex

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2024, 02:41:25 am »

Thanks Hendrik. I think adding the options to configure 25/30 fps separately from 50/60 in manual mode is a good start. Perhaps an extra checkbox for "Automatic (no frequency doubling)" can be considered.

Regarding display compatibility, isn't that taken care by capability checks/negotiation? On a laptop supporting only 60Hz, what happens when the user configures an unsupported freq? In the old days it would just blank out, but I think that's not even a problem with digital displays.
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Hendrik

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2024, 02:52:54 am »

Regarding display compatibility, isn't that taken care by capability checks/negotiation? On a laptop supporting only 60Hz, what happens when the user configures an unsupported freq? In the old days it would just blank out, but I think that's not even a problem with digital displays.

Its fine if the display doesn't advertise a certain rate at all. But in the past there have been displays that only accept 25 as interlaced, causing all sorts of issues. I want to hope this is improved these days, but of course they might still be around.
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Bob Sorel

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Re: 25 fps for 25 fps Video Content
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2024, 04:48:24 pm »

@Hendrik, thank you for the information...very educational!

But the information you presented does not help me with my problem, as my particular front projector (Epson LS12000) displays 25 FPS with no issues at all, while a 50 FPS presentation of the 25 FPS encoded file very noticeably creates a lot of SOE, regardless of how hard I try to explain things to the projector that it should not matter (just joking).

My question remains, is it possible will you be willing to make the "AUTO" setting user editable/configurable? This would solve my problem, and I would bet it would solve problems for other users as well.

Off topic, this request reminds me of a request I/we made a while back in regard to making the default subtitle position user configurable as well.

Is there any chance we will see either/both of these requests fulfilled in MC 32?
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