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[jctcom]

Hi all.

I am wondering if there is any difference at all between .thd & .mka files.  I have been ripping my Dolby Atmos Blu-Ray Audio disks so I can play them without having to load the disk up each time.  I extract the files to .thd using DVD Audio Extractor. 

I have been converting them to .mka (Just by renaming the extensions) because I seem to remember reading somewhere that .mka was taggable where as .thd is not.

That does not seem to be the case though.  At least JRiver does not seem to be able to save most of the tag information so I am wondering.

1. Am I doing something wrong that my .mka files are not able to have the tags saved within them?  or
2. Is there any point in changing them from .thd to .mka  Either way I only really play them in JRiver so not sure there is any point in changing the extension if it is not going to make them taggable?

Thanks in advance.

Carl.

[Hendrik]

Media Center does not support writing tags to .mka files at this time.

Additionally, just renaming a file does not change its type and add additional capabilities to it, the actual format is what matters.

[jctcom]

Media Center does not support writing tags to .mka files at this time.

Additionally, just renaming a file does not change its type and add additional capabilities to it, the actual format is what matters.

So I am better to just leave them as .thd?  Will Media Center play those?  Also I don't think .thd will ever be taggable where as I think some programs already can tag .mka?  Maybe Media center will be able to save their tags down the road?

Carl.

Edit:  Actually I just verified.  MC will not play .thd files.  Comes up with error "Media Center Was Installed For a different operating system" when trying to add them to the play window.  Maybe a bug?

Plays the files just fine once file type is changed to .mka (Except I think Gapless does not work?  Have to verify that), so not sure why it won't play them as .thd files.

Carl

[jctcom]

Media Center does not support writing tags to .mka files at this time.

Additionally, just renaming a file does not change its type and add additional capabilities to it, the actual format is what matters.

Hi Hendrik.

Can you take a look at my last post?  Is MC supposed to be able to play .thd files?

If not why would that be when it plays the same files as .mka files (after changing the extension)?

Thanks.

Carl.

[jctcom]

So I am better to just leave them as .thd?  Will Media Center play those?  Also I don't think .thd will ever be taggable where as I think some programs already can tag .mka?  Maybe Media center will be able to save their tags down the road?

Carl.

Edit:  Actually I just verified.  MC will not play .thd files.  Comes up with error "Media Center Was Installed For a different operating system" when trying to add them to the play window.  Maybe a bug?

Plays the files just fine once file type is changed to .mka (Except I think Gapless does not work?  Have to verify that), so not sure why it won't play them as .thd files.

Carl

Can I please get a verification on this?  Is Media Center not compatible with .thd files?

Thanks.

Carl.

[Hendrik]

Well as you have seen yourself, MC can play these files, as you have found out by renaming them. As I've mentioned before, renaming them does not change the structure of the file. The name is often meaningless, and may just be used to link to the right application, so giving it any name that MC knows as audio would make it work in this case.

I do not know what format those thd files actually are in, however. Maybe raw truehd? That would be a terrible format, audio should never be "raw". Maybe mp4 or mka with a weird name? Who knows.

Unless its some variant of mp4, its unlikely we'll be ever able to tag them. I can teach MC about the file extension, so playback works without renaming, however.

[jctcom]

The files are created by using DVD Audio Extractor and setting the export type to "Direct Stream Demux" which for music Blu-Rays and the TrueHD Atmos tracks creates the files with the .thd extension.

This is the only way I have found to create individual tracks with the TrueHD and Atmos components intact.

It may indeed be a "RAW" file as you suggested but I don't know of any other way to extract the Atmos audio tracks so I can add them to my library and play them as individual tracks with TrueHD and Atmos intact.

btw what is the reason why we should not have "RAW" versions of audio files?

Carl

[whoareyou]

Even if MC plays the file it's not going to play it as ATMOS unless you are bitstreaming to a device (avr).  Is that what you are doing?  For tagging I believe you could use sidecar files.

Have you seen the discussions on decoding ATMOS TO wav over on Audiophilestyle.com? For example:
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/immersive/lossless-truehd-atmos-just-got-much-easier-r1170/
Once you decode to wav, tagging and gapless playback are no longer issues.

If you want to go this route, you'll need the Dolby Reference Player.  You'd be best off asking some of the folks over in that group about the decoding process.

[jctcom]

Even if MC plays the file it's not going to play it as ATMOS unless you are bitstreaming to a device (avr).  Is that what you are doing? 

Yes I have been doing that for months now.

For tagging I believe you could use sidecar files.

Doesn't JRiver create those automatically?  I see them in folders throughout  my system.  Or is it primarily for Video related files?

Have you seen the discussions on decoding ATMOS TO wav over on Audiophilestyle.com? For example:
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/immersive/lossless-truehd-atmos-just-got-much-easier-r1170/
Once you decode to wav, tagging and gapless playback are no longer issues.

Cool.  i will have to take a look at that.  So wav maintains the Atmos coding?

If you want to go this route, you'll need the Dolby Reference Player.  You'd be best off asking some of the folks over in that group about the decoding process.

Why do I need the Dolby Reference Player?  Does JRiver not read the additional coding from the wav files for atmos?

[whoareyou]

Only licensed hardware (such as AVRs) or software i.e.  the Dolby Reference Player can decode TrueHD Atmos.  Mac hardware can also decode Atmos, but it decodes at lower bitrate codec (similar to Atmos streaming services) , so you lose full resolution of TrueHD. 

The wav file created by the reference player represents properly decoded TrueHD audio per your selected configuration i.e. 5.1.2, 7.1.4, etc.....  I believe that when you decode with DRP it basically plays back each track and writes it out to wav file.
Once you have figured out howe to get DRP, the Music Media Helper tool (free) makes it all pretty easy. 
JRiver just added a 5.1.4 and 7.1.4 output format that works perfectly with these wav files.
You'll get a bunch of great information by reading through the comments in the article on audiophilestyle that I provided link.
Everyone over there is great and it's best place to get questions answered regarding decoding if you go that route.

[jctcom]

Hi.  I just read that article.  I see they are trying to reproduce the atmos sound and I guess send it out via PCM?

I am actually quite happy with bit streaming it to my receiver.  The sound is amazing and I know it is authentic because the receiver tells me it is decoding TruHD / Atmos.

Doing via Wav files you will just have to trust that the software did it properly.  No real way to be sure.  It could be just some approximation like the surround Matrix profiles that exist in most receivers.

I would like them to be taggable.  But really the only place I play them is in JRiver and it keeps all the metadata so the tagging though it would be nice it's not essential to being able to organize and listen  to the music. (At least not till I get Atmos in the car! jk)

Carl

[TheShoe]

Use MusicMediaHelper.  Once you rip the full disc (eg use MakeMKV full backup), Music Media Helper can then extract the Atmos tracks to mka files.  These will play back full Atmos when bitstreamed to a supporting AVR.  I'm doing it as I type

I don't think gapless playback works however

[jctcom]

Actually that's great if it works.  It will cut out a step since AnyDVD HD went away.

I have been using MakeMKV to backup the disc and then using Daemon Tools Ultra to put it back into ISO Format without the encryption so that I can rip using DVD-Audio Extractor.

This way I shouldn't need to create those ISOs.

I think I played around with MusicMediaHelper in the past but I didn't realize it could extract from BDMV folders.

Thanks.

Carl.

[whoareyou]

Hi.  I just read that article.  I see they are trying to reproduce the atmos sound and I guess send it out via PCM?

Doing via Wav files you will just have to trust that the software did it properly.  No real way to be sure.  It could be just some approximation like the surround Matrix profiles that exist in most receivers.

Well, then you can use the sidecar files for tagging.  I think I also tried cue files at one point and that also worked.
And yes, the wav files are intended to be sent to multichannel DAC.
But as far as trusting the software I think there's some misconception here.   It's written by Dolby and used by engineers creating Atmos music for playback.  They wouldn't want to playback via an AVR because they probably wouldn't trust the AVR .  I

[jctcom]

But as far as trusting the software I think there's some misconception here.   It's written by Dolby and used by engineers creating Atmos music for playback.  They wouldn't want to playback via an AVR because they probably wouldn't trust the AVR .  I

Not sure what you mean by that?  Since it has been decoded and played via AVR since it's inception in pretty much every home via bit streaming?

Unless I am not understanding what you are saying.   In any case it looks like I would have to pay $300 to get the software required to do it this way.  And that's probably in $US. 

Not going to spend that when I already have a working solution (Except for tagging and Gapless).  But even at that Gapless only really comes into play when listening straight through an album and I can do that by playing the Index.bdmv file.  So again.  it would be nice but not going to spend $300 to get something I already have for the most part.

[whoareyou]

Just saying that the software is written by Dolby and completely reliable.  It's doing the same thing as AVR and if Dolby isn't getting it right then ....

I also use AVR for Atmos movies but prefer the WAV for the tagging and gapless playback within JRiver (and ability to apply DSP of my choice with Atmos).

I wasn't trying to convince you to switch from the AVR to anything else.  I was simply providing alternative (without knowing what your hardware looked like), that allowed for the tagging as you desired.  Plus gave you some info on other tools available.  Sorry for any confusion.

[jctcom]

No worries.

I do appreciate the suggestions. 

But for the number of Atmos albums I have so far (Sure to grow but still) Spending $425 (Canadian) just to get tagging and gapless just isn't going to happen at the moment.

Carl.

[mlknez]

No worries.

I do appreciate the suggestions. 

But for the number of Atmos albums I have so far (Sure to grow but still) Spending $425 (Canadian) just to get tagging and gapless just isn't going to happen at the moment.

Carl.

Carl,
I too use DVD-Audio Extractor with the same options to get my .thd files.  I then also rename to .mka just so JRiver will play them.
I have been telling jriver to create the sidecar files.

Hendrik, we would be appreciative if you would allow .thd files to be bitstreamed like .mka.  Is there a way to do that with dtsx, auro3d and mpeg-h files as well?

[jctcom]

Carl,
I too use DVD-Audio Extractor with the same options to get my .thd files.  I then also rename to .mka just so JRiver will play them.

What have you been doing since AnyDVD died?  Same as me backing up to BDMV using MakeMKV?  Then creating ISOs from the BDMV Folders?

Or have you found a better solution?
Carl

[mlknez]

What have you been doing since AnyDVD died?  Same as me backing up to BDMV using MakeMKV?  Then creating ISOs from the BDMV Folders?

Or have you found a better solution?
Carl

DVDFab

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, we would be appreciative if you would allow .thd files to be bitstreamed like .mka.  Is there a way to do that with dtsx, auro3d and mpeg-h files as well?

Bitstreaming was added to pure audio files a while back, there is no limit to what the file is, as long as its using an audio codec supported for bitstreaming (which are your typical Dolby and DTS formats, irrespective of spatial extensions). MPEG-H is not supported.

[jctcom]

I don’t really understand your response here?

We know that jriver can play these files because it plays them just fine after we rename them to .Mka.

You have already told us that renaming the file does not change the file itself.

We know that it won’t play them unless unless we rename them as we have given you the reproducible errors that we get when trying to play them.

You mention “typical” Dolby & dts files. Does that include dts-HD, Dolby TrueHD & dts:X

Because if it does then why won’t it play them?

Not sure what “MPEG-H” is?

Carl

[TheShoe]

Actually that's great if it works.  It will cut out a step since AnyDVD HD went away.

I have been using MakeMKV to backup the disc and then using Daemon Tools Ultra to put it back into ISO Format without the encryption so that I can rip using DVD-Audio Extractor.

This way I shouldn't need to create those ISOs.

I think I played around with MusicMediaHelper in the past but I didn't realize it could extract from BDMV folders.

Thanks.

Carl.

DVD audio extractor can rip from folder backup that MakeMKV provides.  no need for ISO conversion.  i have done it for years.  you may save another step there unless you want iso.   i don’t use iso, but folder backups.

so my workflow is simple: Bakup (MakeMKV) -> Rip atmos from backup to MKA (Music Media Helper)

MMH isn’t the best UI but it is quite powerful now, and free. 

I continue to use DVDAE for ripping the occasional MLP album (rare these days if it is used at all anymore) and for extracting DTS-MA, TrueHD, DTS-HD to flac.  typically concert videos.

-

now if gapless could be supported for bitstreamed audio….

[jctcom]

DVD audio extractor can rip from folder backup that MakeMKV provides.  no need for ISO conversion.  i have done it for years.  you may save another step there unless you want iso.   i don’t use iso, but folder backups.

Are you talking about BDMV folders here?

I have never managed to get DVDAE to be able to recognize / extract from BDMV folder sets.

Not sure what other type of folder(s) or how to get them from MakeMKV?

Carl

[TheShoe]

Are you talking about BDMV folders here?

I have never managed to get DVDAE to be able to recognize / extract from BDMV folder sets.

Not sure what other type of folder(s) or how to get them from MakeMKV?

Carl

Yes - BDMV.  In DVDAE you can "open folder", and just navigate to the BDMV folder.  Whether Mac or Windows versions, this has worked fine for me.  It will scan the video files and identify all the audio, flagging it as PCM, TrueHD, DTS-MA/HA, MLP...  but in any case, you could use MMH as well.

[jctcom]

Yes - BDMV.  In DVDAE you can "open folder", and just navigate to the BDMV folder.  Whether Mac or Windows versions, this has worked fine for me.  It will scan the video files and identify all the audio, flagging it as PCM, TrueHD, DTS-MA/HA, MLP...  but in any case, you could use MMH as well.

That’s strange. I am sure I tried that & DVDAE did not recognize it as a viable source. Will have to try it again. So when you do it this way are you still extracting the tracks as .thd?

I looked at MMH at some point briefly & found the interface to not be very user friendly. But I will read up more on it & take another look.

Either way though you are not ending up with taggable files though right?

If still extracting to .thd are those files playable directly in JRiver?

Thanks

Carl

[jctcom]

Yes - BDMV.  In DVDAE you can "open folder", and just navigate to the BDMV folder.  Whether Mac or Windows versions, this has worked fine for me.  It will scan the video files and identify all the audio, flagging it as PCM, TrueHD, DTS-MA/HA, MLP...  but in any case, you could use MMH as well.

So I just tried this again.  I put in in Folder Mode and navigated down to the BDMV folder for a Blu-Ray Audio disk I ripped and on my system it will not recognize it.  I click "Open Folder" and get nothing.  I have also had this discussion on the DVD Audio Extractor boards and the author Poikosoft has indicated as much.

It looks like it would open the .m2ts file.  But it only offers a single track for that which is not much use to me.

I have used this in the past for DVD-Audio folders with the Video_ts structure.  But I can't get it to recognize a BDMV folder.

Haven't had a chance to look at MMH again yet.

Carl

[mlknez]

I don’t really understand your response here?

We know that jriver can play these files because it plays them just fine after we rename them to .Mka.

You have already told us that renaming the file does not change the file itself.

We know that it won’t play them unless unless we rename them as we have given you the reproducible errors that we get when trying to play them.

You mention “typical” Dolby & dts files. Does that include dts-HD, Dolby TrueHD & dts:X

Because if it does then why won’t it play them?

Not sure what “MPEG-H” is?

Carl

jriver 33.0.37 now works with .thd files without renaming them!  Thanks Hendrik!

[TheShoe]

So I just tried this again.  I put in in Folder Mode and navigated down to the BDMV folder for a Blu-Ray Audio disk I ripped and on my system it will not recognize it.  I click "Open Folder" and get nothing.  I have also had this discussion on the DVD Audio Extractor boards and the author Poikosoft has indicated as much.

It looks like it would open the .m2ts file.  But it only offers a single track for that which is not much use to me.

I have used this in the past for DVD-Audio folders with the Video_ts structure.  But I can't get it to recognize a BDMV folder.

Haven't had a chance to look at MMH again yet.

Carl

Ok.  You don't open the BDMV folder.  Backup a disc using MakeMKV to some folder, which itself will containt the BDMV folder, CERTIFICATE folder, and an MAKEMKV folder.

Open DVD Audio Extractor, and in the "DVD Source" drop down, select "Folder - Open DVD Files From File Folder..."

Next, click on the FOLDER icon to the right of this drop down.  Navigate to the folder containing the BDMV, CERTIFICATE, and MAKEMKV folders.  DO NOT navigate to the BDMV folder itself.

Click "Select Folder", and DVD AE will scan and present all titles.  Click on a title to see the audio tracks within the title and codec(s) used.

You can then download meta data as well.

I'm starting to wonder if we're using the same software...  There is no option to save a .thd in DVD AE.  I am using this: https://www.dvdae.com/

This software does NOT extract DTS:X or Atmos.  Need to use MMH for that, which extracts to MKA which supports those formats.  Flac does not.

[jctcom]

Ok.  You don't open the BDMV folder.  Backup a disc using MakeMKV to some folder, which itself will containt the BDMV folder, CERTIFICATE folder, and an MAKEMKV folder.

Open DVD Audio Extractor, and in the "DVD Source" drop down, select "Folder - Open DVD Files From File Folder..."

Next, click on the FOLDER icon to the right of this drop down.  Navigate to the folder containing the BDMV, CERTIFICATE, and MAKEMKV folders.  DO NOT navigate to the BDMV folder itself.

Click "Select Folder", and DVD AE will scan and present all titles.  Click on a title to see the audio tracks within the title and codec(s) used.

You can then download meta data as well.

I'm starting to wonder if we're using the same software...  There is no option to save a .thd in DVD AE.  I am using this: https://www.dvdae.com/

This software does NOT extract DTS:X or Atmos.  Need to use MMH for that, which extracts to MKA which supports those formats.  Flac does not.

Well thank you.  I guess I was just selecting the wrong folder level.  But I am going to help you out in return.

On the second page where you would normally select Flac, etc...   You drop it down and select "Direct Stream Demux".

If the source is TrueHD It will extract it to .thd and include Atmos if it is included in the original Disc.

Thanks again.

Carl.

[TheShoe]

Nice.

Thank you!  Completely missed that option.