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[Manni]

As some of you might know, until now I've been using JRiver MC solely as an external player for CMC (Chameleon Media Centre), my front end, which uses the MyMovies database.

I've looked at Theatre View in MC34 and I was very impressed by the progress made (I think the last time I looked was with V32), both from an aestetics point of view and from a features point of view.

So first of all, congrats and thanks to all involved, Theatre View looks and works great overall. Especially when using dark mode, it doesn't look dated at all. I've managed over the last few days to make it look mostly as I want, I've added the views I needed and I've resolved most issues.

However, there are a few limitations and things that I haven't managed to get to work yet, so I thought I'd summarise this in a post, hoping I can find solutions and move to JRiver fully, using the library and leaving CMC behind. Mods, please let me know if you'd like me to split each issue / feature request in a separate post.

Here are the main issues/limitations I have to resolve before I can use MC/Theatre View as a front end:

0) That's a small one, but is there a way to change the default background used when nothing is found online? In the default theme, it looks like a Van Gogh painting (it's displayed on the main menu in theatre view, and also as a background for titles without an online background picture), and I'd like to change it, but if I do so in the options (for example, if I select black or orange) I lose the ability to display the title-specific backgrounds. [EDIT: that's possible, see below].

1) When I import my shares, the TV series are mostly grouped by folders, as they should, so for example if I have a main folder for "Game of Thrones" and inside that folder, a folder hierarchy with seasons and episodes, MC does group them correctly and I can drill into seasons and episodes, as expected. However, for movies, there is no such grouping. For example, if I have a few discs in a folder related to the same title (say a main feature disc and a bonus content disc), the content isn't grouped and each disc is imported as a separate title, showing mostly the same info in Theatre View, with the same cover art, so there is no way to know which is which. I'm sure there is a way to group these manually, but I'd like to know if I'm missing an option to group these automatically on import, and if not if it could be added.

2) When I import all my shares (around 15,000 files in total for about 4,000 titles), around 2,000 files are imported without any info for compression or audio. I managed to get this missing info using the library tool (select the files with the missing info, then "update library from tags"), but any idea why is this happening? I looked and it happens on all the imported shares, with all file types, so I couldn't narrow the issue to anything specific. Also, the info can be wrong. For example, The Last Voyage of the Demeter is a 4K UHD Bluray with Atmos, but the file info in theatre view reports DTS-HD instead of Atmos (while in standard/file, the audio codec is TrueHD, which would be correct for Atmos).

3) While I can import titles from all my shares (most of them are DVD/BD/4KBD folders, but many series are MP4 files), there is one share that refuses to import any of the BDMV titles it contains. I can access the share, library can scan it, but it simply adds zero titles. I usually import only bluray for bluray shares (so .mpls option), and I've tried to extend this to all video files, but still no title is imported. If I import a folder manually, it does import the title, but it imports all video file types, so I don't really want to do this for a few hundred titles, and then have to delete manually all the .mpls files in the library. The files related to that manually imported title are updated in the next auto-import, which proves that library can access the folders, but no other titles are added. I tried importing the share as a single folder instead of auto-import, same result. The "ignore previouslty deleted files" is not selected, so there is no reason for the titles in this share to not be imported. How do I resolve this? [EDIT: That's a bug/unhandled exception in MC as my problem share was called "bdmv", which although a valid name is also the main folder name for blurays/4k blurays. I renamed it to "2kbdmv" and the problem went away].

4) The biggest limitation for my use is that MC doesn't support WOL to wake up a server when the file I try to play (on the local HTPC, I'm not using server/client) is located on a NAS that's on standby (all my titles are located on a dozen of shares in two UnRAID servers). This means that I have to know on which UnRAID server the file is located (not easy in theatre mode as the path isn't displayed) and switch it on manually before I can play the title. Any chance to implement WOL for title playback? I had helped Brian to implement this in MyMovies, and Paul to implement this in CMC, so I'd be very happy to help testing/implement this if that's a feature that others would find useful (and I would think that quite a few would, as having servers on standby when not in use is a great way to save on your electricity bill and reduce you carbon footprint). It's fairly easy to do (especially as MC already supports WOL for its server/client implementation). I attach the config screen for WOL in CMC. [EDIT: partially solved with zones and remote control, see below].

5) A smaller limitation is that unlike CMC (or WMC before it with MyMovies), it doesn't support automatic lights control, which is great in a cinema room. I understand that this is more for a niche, but it's a great feature as well as it allows to switch the lights off when the movie starts, dim the lights when you pause the film, etc. I can definitely live without it, but if others were interested I'd be happy to help implementing this, as I did with MyMovies and CMC. I also attach the settings for the Vera Lights setup in CMC, to give an idea of how it works.

A few feature requests in addition to those mentioned above:
a) An option to display the path for the selected title in Theatre View, as it helps to know where the title is located if you need to switch on a server manually in order to be able to play the file. [EDIT: That's possible, see below].
b) The ability to enable/disable any of the shares specified in Auto Import, so that we can auto-import only a specific share. For example, even if there are no new titles, it takes MC 20 minutes to scan all the shares. I usually add titles to the same two share (my 4K UHD Blurays), so if I could only select these two shares most of the time, I could get the relevant shares scanned (and save time / get titles added more quickly), and only check the others when new content is added on them. As it stands, I'll have to do one or two manual single folders import, which isn't ideal.

Again, I'd love to move fully to MC as my front end on the HTPC, so I hope that most of these issues/limitations can be resolved. Thanks!

[mattkhan]

Grouping is controlled via the theatre view options, it's similar to how remote views work but configured independently of those. I guess what you want is for the import rules to automatically recognise some particular folder layout and encode that into tags? Something like

<Name>/<disc name>/

?

What do you use right now?

I would think a feature like this for films would be generally useful, don't think it exists ATM though

[Manni]

Grouping is controlled via the theatre view options, it's similar to how remote views work but configured independently of those. I guess what you want is for the import rules to automatically recognise some particular folder layout and encode that into tags? Something like

<Name>/<disc name>/

?

What do you use right now?

I would think a feature like this for films would be generally useful, don't think it exists ATM though

Thanks for confirming that grouping doesn't exist for movies (yet). The folder structure I use is the one recommended for MyMovies, so one folder per title (with the title name in the folder name), except when there is more than one disc for a title, in which case I would have a main title folder, and then one subfolder for each disc, each sub-folder with its name (Main Movie, Bonus Content, etc). I could add the title to each subfolder if necessary, but it's not necessary for TV Series so I don't think it would be for movies.

I still need to use MyMovies to manage my titles, as I use the iOS MyMovies app to start a title directly with network playback on the Dune or Oppo player. MyMovies creates all the folder.jpg and cover art for each title, and JRiver MC seems happy to use these in most cases for the library / theatre view, so that works well.

[mattkhan]

Does auto import get the film name right in this case atm?

You can create such a library field yourself (would think it's a calculated one based on the path) and then use that to add an additional level to the nesting in theatre view though not sure whether you can do an optional level in the hierarchy

[Hendrik]

Optional levels work fine, it can skip level that only contain a single option.

[Manni]

Optional levels work fine, it can skip level that only contain a single option.

Thanks Hendrik, how would you do that?
Also please could you comment on the other issues/limitations/suggestions/requests?

[datdude]

0 - Yes you can. Go to Media Center 34 > Skins > Theater View > Themes. Create a folder for your own theme, put whatever graphics you want in it, then select that theme in Options > Theater View > Theme.

1 - You could possibly create custom tagging rules on auto import to accomplish this, maybe. Otherwise this would have to be manual tagging.

2 - Check your Auto Import settings, just to be sure.

3 - What's different about that share vs the others?

4 - Does the NAS have to be on standby? They are meant to run 24/7. However, you could send a WOL command via a bat file under Options > Remote Control, when certain files are played back. If that doesn't work, you could, possibly, try your hands and an automation tool like EventGhost, then use MC's MCWS commands to monitor what files your remote is playing, then run some Python to output the MCWS status in Eventghost, then based on the the file name, you could kick off a bat file. Complicated, but doable.

5 - See above. But there are many third party tools that can allow you to control lighting. You could try something like EventGhost. Or just use your smartphone and smart speaker. Alexa and Hue Light work great together. I combine it with EventGhost to change the picture mode on my LG tv at the same time.

a - You can do that in Options > Theater View > Customize File Info Panel > Add field for Filename (path).

b - I'm not sure I understand what you are asking for on this one. What could MC do differently exactly? It sounds like you should limit the number of shares for Auto Import to just the two you normally do. Then when you add files to other shares, just manually play or drag them to MC or open them from MC, then Right click and select Import into library on those files.

I'd recommend searching Interact more by increasing the number of days beyond the default 999 (or use Google) as there is a wealth of knowledge on here that goes decades back, as many features have been developed for some time. The Wiki is of course also a great place to look as well. For more automation, search for MCC Core Commands and MCWS commands and likely most things you can't do via standard options, can be done there.

[JimH]

Thanks datdude.

[Manni]

Thanks for your detailed reply

0 - Yes you can. Go to Media Center 34 > Skins > Theater View > Themes. Create a folder for your own theme, put whatever graphics you want in it, then selection that theme in Options > Theater View > Theme.

That worked great, thanks, that one is solved.

1 - You could possibly create custom tagging rules on auto import to accomplish this, maybe. Otherwise this would have to be manual tagging.

Thanks, I'm trying to avoid having to do this manually. I'm waiting to hear from Hendrik as it seems to be possible to to this with optional views, I just have no idea how.

2 - Check your Auto Import settings, just to be sure.

I triple checked my auto-import settings, it's not that. Also I'm not sure why it would import this data for 85% of my files, on all shares, and fail for 15% of them.

3 - What's different about that share vs the others?

At first sight, nothing is different, but I think I found a bug. After clearing the library on my laptop, I was still having the issue, so as I know there is nothing special about the content, I looked into the share name. The way my shares are organised, I have two UnRAID servers, one called A4K, for 4K content, and one called B2K, for 2K content. The share that I can't import is on the B2K server and is called bdmv (for BD Movies). I think that there is a bug in MC that prevents importing content when the share is called bdmv, probably because it confuses it with a bdmv folder. Please could someone try to reproduce this? Simply call a share on any of your server "bdmv", put some BD folders in it and try to import bluray titles (bdmv/mpls). It should scan the share and import zero title.

4 - Does the NAS have to be on standby? They are meant to run 24/7. However, you could send a WOL command via a bat file under Options > Remote Control, when certain files are played back. If that doesn't work, you could, possibly, try your hands and an automation tool like EventGhost, then use MC's MCWS commands to monitor what files your remote is playing, then run some Python to output the MCWS status in Eventghost, then based on the the file name, you could kick off a bat file. Complicated, but doable.

The NAS doesn't have to be on standby, but I don't want to waste energy. I use the one with 4K content daily, but the one with 2K content I use much more rarely, usually only when I watch a 2K series. I don't want to have a NAS sitting idling for days or weeks doing nothing. My NAS are set to put disks to sleep after 15min idling, and to go to standby after 45min idling.
I use MCE controller (the equivalent of EventGhost) to control events manually with Roomie Remote from my phone/iPad, but I'd like something automated. I like your idea of launching a batch file with a WOL command when starting a file. That would be pretty easy to do: I already have the batch files, and I only need two situations: if (path) contains "A4K", run wake-up-A4K.batch, and the same for my B2K server. [EDIT: I've looked into the remote control options, but I don't see anything that would allow me to start a batch file depending on a string in the file path]. My only concern would be that the timeout isn't long enough to wait for the server to wake up, but it should be easy for the devs to add an option to make this time-out longer if needed.

5 - See above. But there are many third party tools that can allow you to control lighting. You could try something like EventGhost. Or just use your smartphone and smart speaker. Alexa and Hue Light work great together. I combine it with EventGhost to change the picture mode on my LG tv at the same time.

I have no problem using my phone or iPad to control lighting manually. I use MCE Controller and Roomie Remote for that. I even have a physical remote control for the lighting. But that's not as convenient / cool as having the lights controlled automatically on MC launch, title start, title pause, title stop, etc. I could live without this, obviously, but it's just something very cool to have in a Home Cinema setup. Not having to look for a light switch or bump into furniture when you pause the film for a convenience break is nice! Yes, I have an Echo so I can do this with Alexa, it's just a pain compared to having it done automatically by the front end.

a - You can do that in Options > Theater View > Customize File Info Panel > Add field for Filename (path).

That worked great, thanks!

b - I'm not sure I understand what you are asking for on this one. What could MC do differently exactly? It sounds like you should limit the number of shares for Auto Import to just the two you normally do. Then when you add files to other shares, just manually play or drag them to MC or open them from MC, then Right click and select Import into library on those files.

What I mean is that currently, you can either save all your shares in auto-import, or import just one single share.
It would be useful to be able to define all the shares we import content from in auto-import, yet still have the ability to only check some of them depending on our needs, either for auto-imports, or for a specific import where we don't want to scan all the shares, but only some. It's a very easy change to make, just add a check box in front of each of the shares defined in the auto-import config, and only auto-import those that are checked.

I'd recommend searching Interact more by increasing the number of days beyond the default 999 (or use Google) as there is a wealth of knowledge on here that goes decades back, as many features have been developed for some time. The Wiki is of course also a great place to look as well. For more automation, search for MCC Core Commands and MCWS commands and likely most things you can't do via standard options, can be done there.

Thanks, I did do some searches (and found some of your posts) but as the resources are not always up to date, it's not easy to know if somehting that you want to do has been implemented in a more recent version or not. I think I've done what was easy to implement, I'm going to look into the batch idea for WOL and hopefully the bug for the bdmv import will be resolved soon if others/devs can reproduce it.

Thanks again for all your help!

[JimH]

You could rename bdmv.

[Manni]

You could rename bdmv.

Yes, I could, but it's still a bug and my whole setup is based around existing folder names, so it would be nice if it could be fixed.

[Manni]

Regarding launching a batch file when starting playback, would it not be in options/library & folders / Expressions / before playback expression rather than in options/remote control?
If so, does anyone know how would I code the following expression:
If [filePath] contains "A4K" run "A4K-wakeup.bat" Else if [FilePath] contains "B2K" run "B2K-wakeup.bat"
Thanks!

[datdude]

If that feature could be used for outside programs, that would be great, but I'm not sure if that's what it is designed for. Seems it's just for adjusting how things look in library views/Playing fields now based on what you are playing.

I was referring to the feature in the screenshot attached. You can see that you can run an external program for each zone. You could setup zones for each share and use Zone Switch Feature to only play certain files from each share in each appropriate zone, then use the Remote Control feature to kick off a unique bat WOL file for each zone's share.

[Manni]

If that feature could be used for outside programs, that would be great, but I'm not sure if that's what it is designed for. Seems it's just for adjusting how things look in library views/Playing fields now based on what you are playing.

I was referring to the feature in the screenshot attached. You can see that you can run an external program for each zone. You could setup zones for each share and use Zone Switch Feature to only play certain files from each share in each appropriate zone, then use the Remote Control feature to kick off a unique bat WOL file for each zone's share.

Thanks, yes I saw that, but once you enable EnGen the only thing you can do is add a single "player" zone or a single  "remote" zone. I could run an external program associated to each zone, but I don't understand how that would help me to run "wakeA4K" for some shares and "wakeB2K" for others...

[datdude]

Each zone is tied to playing only the files for a given share using the ZoneSwitch feature (tie it based on filename (path) field). For each share, add a wake command in Engen for that share to the specific zone where only those files for that share are being played. Player > Zone > ZoneSwitch... is the key here.

[JimH]

Yes, I could, but it's still a bug and my whole setup is based around existing folder names, so it would be nice if it could be fixed.

It's arguable whether it's a bug to use a name that is a default for another purpose.

[Manni]

Each zone is tied to playing only the files for a given share using the ZoneSwitch feature (tie it based on filename (path) field). For each share, add a wake command in Engen for that share to the specific zone where only those files for that share are being played. Player > Zone > ZoneSwitch... is the key here.

Thanks a lot, that's the info I was missing
So I renamed my player zone "A4K", assigned it for titles where file path contains "A4K", and added another zone called B2K, assigned for filenames where file path contains "B2K". I then enabled the Emgen commands for these two zones, and added the relevant batch file to execute as an external program.
This works great (it wakes up each server when needed according to the file path), however, as I feared, the timeout is too short, and even though MC sends the appropriate command to wake up the server, it also almost immediately returns as error saying that the file is not available. If, however, I wait 10-15 secs to wait until the server is online and restart playback for the title, then it plays fine, to that's progress

I don't really want to run a 15 seconds delay all the time to allow for the server to wake up, because if the server is already woken up, the file can play immediately.

Devs, would it be possible, if it doesn't exist already, to have an option to extend the timeout when a file isn't available (server/NAS offline) during which MC tries to play the file, so that a WOL command has the time to switch the server on if needed and the file becomes available before MC times out? That's all we need to have a perfectly functional WOL feature in MC

[Manni]

It's arguable whether it's a bug to use a name that is a default for another purpose.

Unless/until MC refuses the share name as invalid because it's used for another purpose, it's a bug (though I'll compromise as "unhandled exception"). That's not arguable
I have temporarily renamed the share "2kbdmv" and it works fine like that, but not having any clue why it wouldn't work with the name "bdmv", which is a perfectly valid name at the OS level, is a bug/unhandled exception.
I agree that the chances are limited for another user to run into it, so if you don't want to fix it, that's fine by me, I'll just regenerate my whole file structure, thumbnails and metadata for the Dune around that in MyMovies.

[mattkhan]

assuming the bat command is a blocking call, you could use https://devblogs.microsoft.com/scripting/powertip-test-the-presence-of-a-remote-share-by-using-powershell/ in a loop to block the bat file until the share is available

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/module/microsoft.powershell.management/test-path?view=powershell-7.5

[Manni]

assuming the bat command is a blocking call, you could use https://devblogs.microsoft.com/scripting/powertip-test-the-presence-of-a-remote-share-by-using-powershell/ in a loop to block the bat file until the share is available

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/module/microsoft.powershell.management/test-path?view=powershell-7.5

Thanks, that's a great idea, but I don't have the path in the batch file. Unless I can send the path as a parameter in the remote control section (there is a "parameter" field but I'm not sure it accepts MC variables as there is no pickup option).

EDIT: Although I don't need the full path, I can just check the root, I'll give it a try! thanks again]

[mattkhan]

Thanks, I'm trying to avoid having to do this manually. I'm waiting to hear from Hendrik as it seems to be possible to to this with optional views, I just have no idea how.

what I mean is adding a calculated field that is based on https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/File_Path_and_Identifier_Functions#FileFolder(%E2%80%A6)

ultimately, for an item based on index.bdmv, it sounds like you would want the field to produce

Code: [Select]

filefolder([Filename],1)

e.g. if you have

//share/films/Lord of the Rings/Extended Edition/BDMV/index.bdmv
//share/films/Lord of the Rings/Standard Edition/BDMV/index.bdmv

then filefolder() would produce BDMV so filefolder([Filename], 1) gives the next level up which is your target name (you can call it whatever you like; disc name, edition or version or whatever)

I imagine you may need to wrap this in some conditional statement so that you produce an empty value when it's not a disc name

once that works ok then Options > Theatre View  and insert your new field into whichever view you want it to be in

I haven't tested this but I would think it should work (or can be made to work with some tweaks)

[Manni]

Thanks, that's a great idea, but I don't have the path in the batch file. Unless I can send the path as a parameter in the remote control section (there is a "parameter" field but I'm not sure it accepts MC variables as there is no pickup option).

EDIT: Although I don't need the full path, I can just check the root, I'll give it a try! thanks again]

So I've tried this, but the test-path command doesn't work in a command line, and if you start powershell (which I'm not sure MC can do) the test-path command isn't recognized if I start the batch file with /cmd /c. So not sure how to get it to work that way? Otherwise, as long as I don't test the server root ("\\A4K") but a share name ("\\A4K\4kbdmv"), test-path does return true or false according to the server state, but without a batch file I can't create a loop...

[Manni]

what I mean is adding a calculated field that is based on https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/File_Path_and_Identifier_Functions#FileFolder(%E2%80%A6)

ultimately, for an item based on index.bdmv, it sounds like you would want the field to produce

Code: [Select]

filefolder([Filename],1)

e.g. if you have

//share/films/Lord of the Rings/Extended Edition/BDMV/index.bdmv
//share/films/Lord of the Rings/Standard Edition/BDMV/index.bdmv

then filefolder() would produce BDMV so filefolder([Filename], 1) gives the next level up which is your target name (you can call it whatever you like; disc name, edition or version or whatever)

I imagine you may need to wrap this in some conditional statement so that you produce an empty value when it's not a disc name

once that works ok then Options > Theatre View  and insert your new field into whichever view you want it to be in

I haven't tested this but I would think it should work (or can be made to work with some tweaks)

Thanks, but that's too complicated for me
I've added the file path to the info displayed, and that allows me to know right away which "title" to start when there are more than one disc per title, as I can see the disc name in the path. For now, that will do. Maybe Hendrik will elaborate on what he called optional views, as that might be simple to implement.

[mattkhan]

So I've tried this, but the test-path command doesn't work in a command line, and if you start powershell (which I'm not sure MC can do) the test-path command isn't recognized if I start the batch file with /cmd /c. So not sure how to get it to work that way? Otherwise, as long as I don't test the server root ("\\A4K") but a share name ("\\A4K\4kbdmv"), test-path does return true or false according to the server state, but without a batch file I can't create a loop...

powershell syntax is fairly horrible so I can't write it offhand this should be the sort of thing some ai tool is good at .... this looks plausible but use/test at your own risk

Code: [Select]

$pathToCheck = "\\myserver\Path\To\Check"
$timeout = 15  # seconds
$startTime = Get-Date

while (-not (Test-Path $pathToCheck)) {
    if ((Get-Date) - $startTime -gt ([TimeSpan]::FromSeconds($timeout))) {
        Write-Host "Timeout reached. Path not found: $pathToCheck"
        break
    }

    Start-Sleep -Milliseconds 200
}

if (Test-Path $pathToCheck) {
    Write-Host "Path is available: $pathToCheck"
}

then save that as a ps1 file, check hte execution policy is set to allow ps1 script execution and away you go

[mattkhan]

Thanks, but that's too complicated for me

that's MC view configuration for you

[Manni]

powershell syntax is fairly horrible so I can't write it offhand this should be the sort of thing some ai tool is good at .... this looks plausible but use/test at your own risk

Code: [Select]

$pathToCheck = "\\myserver\Path\To\Check"
$timeout = 15  # seconds
$startTime = Get-Date

while (-not (Test-Path $pathToCheck)) {
    if ((Get-Date) - $startTime -gt ([TimeSpan]::FromSeconds($timeout))) {
        Write-Host "Timeout reached. Path not found: $pathToCheck"
        break
    }

    Start-Sleep -Milliseconds 200
}

if (Test-Path $pathToCheck) {
    Write-Host "Path is available: $pathToCheck"
}

then save that as a ps1 file, check hte execution policy is set to allow ps1 script execution and away you go

Thanks, I only got this now. In the meantime, I had converted your initial idea to a batch file equivalent using mapped drives to test, and unfortunately it's a no go as it only delays the error message from MC.

My batch code works, it only exits when the share/server is online:

Code: [Select]

@echo off
Echo Waking A4K...
d:/users/em/dropbox/documents/batch_files/mc-wol.exe C8:60:00:C5:9B:A1
Echo Command sent, waiting...
:LOOP
If exist N:\ GOTO END
GOTO LOOP
:END
ECHO A4K Awake!

Unfortunately, when control goes back to MC, I get the error message that the file isn't availble (when I know it is, as if one share is available, all shares on the same server also are).

[Manni]

Also, there are some bugs with the remote control execute commands:
1) The "invisible" flag doesn't stick. Even if you make sure it's enabled when you leave the remote control settings, the next time you open the settings it's clear and the command window shows during execution.
2) Even when the share is online, sometimes MC just displays "PLAY" when you click on "watch", but doesn't actually start playback. This only happens since I've enabled the two zones.
3) Sometimes nothing happens and you have to exit MC and start it again to restore playback functionality. I never had these two issues before I enabled the switch zones and conditional external commands.

As it doesn't look possible to work around it with a loop in a batch file/command file, please could the devs look into giving us an option to extend the time-out delay when MC tries to play a title, so that we have the time to wake up the server if the share is offline / the server is on standby? Some servers take 15 secs to wake up from standby, others take 10 minutes to wake up from power off, so it would be better if this could be a user variable. Thanks!

[Manni]

Two last questions:

1) I'm trying to customize the file info panel further. Does anyone know how to add the number of titles shown in the current movie view? I tried groupcount() but I think it counts the number of files for the selected title as it returns always one.

2) Also, I added the screenwriters between the director and the actors, but I can’t seem to add a leading space before "Writer(s): ", so that label is next to the end of the director's name.

[Manni]

I did more testing, and unfortunately it looks like MC is unable to work properly in Theater Mode when some of the shares are offline, so the issue isn't just to be able to switch the share on when we want to play a title that's offline.

When either of my two shares are off, I get delays of up to 20 seconds when switching between Theatre Mode and Standard Mode (no issue in the other direction). The cover to the right in grid mode doesn't get updated instantly when you scroll through titles, and the cover is often covered in black bars after a while. Occasionally, the interface will freeze for up to 20 seconds (which is the time out when accessing offline files). All these issues disappear when switching both shares on. This happens even with Zone Switch disabled and with the default theme.

Why is it that Theatre Mode can't browse a collection when the shares holding the titles are offline?

Please could someone double check and confirm that they have this issue as well?

Am I the only user who doesn't think it's a good idea to have all servers on all the time when some are only used a few times a year?

Or do people only have one server, which has to be on all the time because all their media is on that single server?

[JimH]

You're expecting high performance when the OS believes there are no drives available.  It will never be fast.

[Manni]

You're expecting high performance when the OS believes there are no drives available.  It will never be fast.

I'm not expecting high performance. I'm expecting the same behavior. There is absolutely zero need to access the media share until you want to actually play the title. The database is online on a local SSD and the metada, cover art and thumbnails are all in the database. Why would MC need to access the media share when browsing the collection? It doesn't make any sense.

If MC needs share access to access a collection of offline titles when all the data is available in the library, it should be looked at. That's not an issue in Standard Mode, only in Theatre Mode.

[EDIT: I guess the cover art isn't in the DB, that's probably part of the issue. CMC has all the info locally, but its database is 10GB for the same collection, not 1.5GB. I guess we'd need an offline mode for MC that would create a cache for all the info needed to browse the collection when the media shares are offline. Any chance for this to happen, along with a longer timeout before MC gives up accessing a title while we're WOLing it?]

[Manni]

As a way to mitigate this, is there a way to execute a command:
- When MC starts (the only option I could see is start playlist)
- When MC resumes fron standby?
- When a Zone is accessed?
I have added a "Disc" option to the Theatre Mode Menu that allows me to browse the content of either server (A4K or B2K). If I could send a WOL command for the corresponding disc (Zone) when it's browsed, at least I would only have to wake up a server when I actually browse its contents, and the cover art will be online for that server when browsing it.

I mostly play 4K content, so that would be an acceptable compromise. I would wake up the A4K server when I start MC or when it resumes from standby, and I would only wake the B2K server when I want to browse/play 2K content as well, which is only once in a blue moon.

What I can't have is both servers on all the time whether I use MC or not.

[datdude]

I don't think there is a great way to accomplish what you want without serious lag. Have you measured much power those unused drives actually using? I bet it's not more than your average LED light being on. I experienced your issues 10 years ago and decided my NAS wasn't consuming that much power and it was better to leave on so that MC runs smoothly. What I do is schedule the NAS to power down at night and turn on in the morning. If you are only using those drives a couple times a year, then its not much better than just having your media on Disk and popping those into a blu-ray drive every so often. So they seem like its more for archiving that daily usage.

MC was recently upgraded to include higher resolution thumbnails, per a request I made. It makes a big difference because I'm not seeing MC hit my NAS as frequently when browsing now and it is much smoother overall! However, there is still a size limit I think at which it will need to use the full sized image stored on those drives. Play around moving the scaling size down in Theater View to see if you can get it to use cached thumbnails only. Lepa has also indicated that you can use MCUtils to move your cover art to the same local drive that MC is running on.

[Manni]

I don't think there is a great way to accomplish what you want without serious lag. Have you measured much power those unused drives actually using? I bet it's not more than your average LED light being on. I experienced your issues 10 years ago and decided my NAS wasn't consuming that much power and it was better to leave on so that MC runs smoothly. What I do is schedule the NAS to power down at night and turn on in the morning. If you are only using those drives a couple times a year, then its not much better than just having your media on Disk and popping those into a blu-ray drive every so often. So they seem like its more for archiving that daily usage.

MC was recently upgraded to include higher resolution thumbnails, per a request I made. It makes a big difference because I'm not seeing MC hit my NAS as frequently when browsing now and it is much smoother overall! However, there is still a size limit I think at which it will need to use the full sized image stored on those drives. Play around moving the scaling size down in Theater View to see if you can get it to use cached thumbnails only. Lepa has also indicated that you can use MCUtils to move your cover art to the same local drive that MC is running on.

My two NASes are 24-bay, using a 3700K and 16GB of RAM (UnRAID), so yes when powered on they sip a significant amount of electricity (around 50-100W per server with all the drives on sleep, more when drives are active). The drives themselves don't use that much power as most of them go to sleep within 15 min of inactivity.

I'm not archiving my data, I just watch 2K content far less often that 4K content. Usually, it's TV series ripped as episodes so that I can keep track of watched/unwatched episode, so it's not like I can pop a disc once in a blue moon. When I watch a 2K series, I will use that NAS every day for a while.

Anyway, the issue is that currently, I'm doing exactly this with CMC, using MC only as a player. All the info necessary to browse my entire collection (4,000 titles) is available on my local drive, and either NAS is woken up only when/if I need to play something that's on it. To me, that's the best way to do it. It only takes 15-20 seconds to wake up the NAS the first time, and after that it will go to sleep automatically if I don't use it for 45 minutes. That's entirely transparent to the user and it allows me to access all media right away, irrespective of where it's stored. I have no way to predict when I'll need to access content on either server, so I want it to be readily accessible, yet I don't see the point in having a server up all day to do nothing if I don't need it.

It's a shame that MC doesn't have a proper offline mode to browse a collection, then a simple WOL to wake up a server if it's online when we want to play some media that's on it.
Devs, do I need to create a feature request post? That's really the only deal breaker for me at this stage. Everything else, I can live with or find a way to improve.

I'm tryign to see for now if I can browse only 4K content and not have these issues with Theatre Mode. I'll play with the scale option to see if I can resolve some of the issues that way.

I can't move the cover art etc locally, because these are needed for my other players (Dune and Oppo), so I need to have them with the media. A cache would work fine, as long as we can populate it automatically for all the titles, as with thumbnails.

[datdude]

Wow that's a lot of drives. Can you upgrade capacity and consolidate and use less power overall with fewer drives?

Seems like a very edge case for MC to be able to handle. If they could handle it better, that would of course be great, but seems like an extreme case to tackle. I'd love to see a video of how CMC does this better, just out of curiosity? I'm not picturing it and I've never used that software.

I'm a little confused when you say all the info necessary to browse your collection is on your local drive, but then you say your other software also needs it on the individual shares as well? If you 'move' the cover art to your local drive, for just MC, technically you could still have a copy of those images still on the local drives, MC just wouldn't point to them there.

I'm very curious to hear if anyone else on this forum has similar setup as yours and hear their experiences!

[Manni]

Wow that's a lot of drives. Can you upgrade capacity and consolidate and use less power overall with fewer drives?

Seems like a very edge case for MC to be able to handle. If they could handle it better, that would of course be great, but seems like an extreme case to tackle. I'd love to see a video of how CMC does this better, just out of curiosity? I'm not picturing it and I've never used that software.

I'm a little confused when you say all the info necessary to browse your collection is on your local drive, but then you say your other software also needs it on the individual shares as well? If you 'move' the cover art to your local drive, for just MC, technically you could still have a copy of those images still on the local drives, MC just wouldn't point to them there.

I'm very curious to hear if anyone else on this forum has similar setup as yours and hear their experiences!

I can't really upgrade the existing drives, they are 6TB drives, but I'm upgrading the two parity drives of the 4K server to 20TB so that I can add drives up to 20TB size, as I'm running out of 6TB ones (it's old drives I had from other NASes). Bigger drives won't make a difference, after 15min, all my drives go to sleep and only the drive I need for playback is active. So a bigger drive would in fact use more power, not less.

Regarding MC, it's not an edge case at all, again unless people are happy to have their NASes on all the time, eating power needlessly. The fact that I have two of them (I have a third one but that one is for backup, not for media playback) means that I have more of a reason to have one that's not on most of the time. That's precisely why I organised my media that way (all 4K content on one server, because that's what I watch most of the time, and 2K content on another).

I've played with the size in theater view, it doesn't make a difference. I use 70% because that's what I need to display all the info I've added, and the issue is still there even if I go down to 50%.

However, I think it's a bug with the grid view, for a few reasons:

1) When I use a non-grid view (for example, "Recent"), there is no lag issue, and the cover art is displayed much bigger than in grid view. I can see ALL the covers, whether the server is online or not.
2) When using grid view (video/movies/grid), I can always see all the covers without any lag in the grid itself. It's only the cover at the top right that has issues. a) It's not updated when you move between titles for at least 20 seconds whether the server holding that title is online or not and b) When you select a title in grid view to see the details, and when you go back to grid view, it displays black bars over the cover on the top right. That's a bug.
3) When I use a non-grid view (for example, "Recent", there is almost never a lag when switching between standard and theatre mode, which again suggests something specific to grid mode.

There is another bug in non-grid mode: when you select a title to see the details and the cast and recommendations have not been downloaded yet, MC leaves the details and you have to go back to details to see them, this time withe the cast and recommendations. Once that information is available, MC never jumps out of detail view for that title, but it will for any title that hasn't downloaded this information yet.

I don't think it would be fair or even useful to show a video of how CMC does it. Just imagine being able to browse your whole collection in any view (CMC has a wall view, so imagine grid) whithout any hickup even if all the servers are offline. Then when you press "watch" for a title, if the server holding that title is offline, CMC simply displays a message saying "Waking up server xxx, please wait". After a few seconds, the message disappears, and when the server is online, playback starts right away. It's entirely transparent and very family-friendly. There is no need to any any server online when browsing the whole collection.

If I don't hear from the devs, I'll split up the remaining issues in feature requests and bug reports for clarity and visibility. Thanks again for all your help (and thanks to Matt as well)!

[datdude]

Looking at WD Red Pro NAS drives, they basically all draw the same amount of power regardless of size. A 26TB drive draws only 3.5 watts at idle and 1.1 in sleep/hibernate mode. If you cut down the total number of drives to a fraction of what you have, then there will be SIGNIFCANTLY less power. I can't see how that wouldn't be true.

I haven't seen anyone else with your use case in a long time, if ever, but I could be wrong and would love to hear others like your setup to see how they do it because I'm always wanting to learn about the best practice for storing and accessing media. I'm assuming most people are at least running their hard drives during the day, if not 24/7, since that is what they are meant to do. Starting and stopping them a lot is actually a bad thing and makes them more likely to fail.

In regard to the thumbnails, I just tested this myself by shutting down my NAS, then browsed my 1K+ movie collection with zero issues using both grid and non-grid (3D) view. Movies could not play of course, but browsing showed all of the thumbnails and there was zero lag. I think you are going to need to record a video and post it to YouTube to show what is going on.

Maybe the devs could get what I think you are describing CMC to do, but I haven't seen anyone else request that exact scenario.

[Manni]

Let’s forget about the drives, it’s irrelevant. Unraid only uses ONE drive during playback. All the other drives go to sleep. The number of drives in the server only matters during the first 15 minutes. After that, you only need the ONE drive on which your title actually is. That’s one of the many reasons why switched from Raid (I had Synology and Qnap NASes) to Unraid. Number and size of drives entirely irrelevant for my use, trust me. And for the drive that’s active, it’s not the sleep or idle power use that matters, but the power used when reading/writing data. And larger drives tend to use a bit more power. But again, it’s irrelevant to this discussion.

I have done some tests here, and it looks like some of the issues come from a bug when using covers that have not been imported/created by CM. CM is very bad at guessing what a title is, so I tried to import titles as they were with the mymovies metadata, and the titles/covers were 100% correct. Unfortunately, there is an animation in grid view for the cover displayed in the top right corner, and this animation is what causes issues. I have asked CM to update the covers and film info (for more than 3500 titles, it took nearly three hours) and now my collection is full of garbage (wrong titles, wrong covers, wrong metadata) but most of these covers have the correct size for CM and don’t need the animation. I’m in the process of correcting all the wrong titles, which is likely going to take me a few days, but I hope that after that I will have less issues.

I’ll update the thread when I’m done.

[JimH]

If it helps, MC makes automatic backups and you can restore one if you have an event like that.

I wonder if you could put your cover art on a drive that is on all the time.

[Manni]

If it helps, MC makes automatic backups and you can restore one if you have an event like that.

I wonder if you could put your cover art on a drive that is on all the time.

Thanks Jim, but I think you misunderstood. I knew that MC would make a mess dinner of my collection, that's what it's done everything I checked it over the year. I don't know how the auto-select feature works for this when you don't pick the entry manually, but it's very poor. Even when the folder name contains the exact title of the movie/show and the year in braket, MC selects the first available (or a random) entry, unusally a completely unrelated entry (documentary, making of, or somehting that has nothing to do with the title). Anyway, I knew it would do that and I do keep a backup of my collection, so I could go back if I wanted.

My reasoning behind doing this was that:

1) When importing this cover art and info, MC would store it locally, as I don't think it stores it on the share with the title. If it does, I can't see it.

2) The covert art that I had were usingMyMovies format, which is a bit wider than MC's format. As a result, all the cover art had to be slightly resized when displayed in the grid view, and also as it was wider sone of the info (title, text on the cover) was cut. MC's imported covers are slightly taller, with no text info at the sides, so the cover is never cut and doesn't have to be resized.

3) I was hoping that it would get rid of the animation that takes place when you go back from the title details view to the grid view. Unfortunately, this animation still happens, and still causes black bars (or even fully black covers over the art cover on the upper right corner), and causes some glitches, for example the menus go black as well.

I will make a video when I report this bug, because it's definitely a bug (Datdude doesn't seem to have any of the issues I experience with grid view even with all his titles offline). It only happens here when the servers are offline, but if the cover was not available locally, it wouldn't display it, which is why I believe it's a bug. When the servers are online, there are no black bars or blck covers, the animation (spin/black effect) completes and the poster art remains visible in the top right cover of the grid view.

Getting all these wrong covers and titles has corrected the resize/cropping I was seeing with all the mymovies covers, so it will look better when all the wrong titles/cover art are manually corrected. The browsing with the servers offline also improved, the only remaining issue (apart from MC's poor cover art/info title picking algo) is the black animation in grid view that messes up the cover art.

I'm just finish doing my research in this thread, and I'll split the main outstanding bugs and feature requests in separate threads, as it will be clearer for the devs and easier to follow than a big thread with different topics, unless someone confirms that the bugs are logged and being looked at, and lets me know which feature request is under consideration.

I hope I'll get close enough to be able to use MC as a front end, otherwise I'll just go back to CMC and will wait until MC 35 or 36 to give it another try. I really love the look of MC and how customizable it is, but not being able to browse my collection with the servers offline is a dealbreaker for me. It's too much of a step backwards, even though I like the look better and appreciate all the custom info I was able to add.

[JimH]

MC uses the file name, not the folder name when it does a lookup.  It has to match.

I believe you could rename your files with an expression.

and ...

It would be helpful if you would report facts and not opinion like this:

I knew that MC would make a mess dinner of my collection, that's what it's done everything I checked it over the year.

and this:

I will make a video when I report this bug, because it's definitely a bug (Datdude doesn't seem to have any of the issues I experience with grid view even with all his titles offline).

Your job is to report a problem with simple steps to reproduce it.  It's our job to decide whether it's a bug.

[Manni]

MC uses the file name, not the folder name when it does a lookup.  It has to match.

I believe could rename your files with an expression.

It would be helpful if you would report facts and not opinion like this:

This is entirely unhelpful, my collection is ripped to dvd, bd and 4K bd folders. There are no file names. I could try to generate the jriver metadata sidecar file with mymovies, but in the pas this has proven unhelpful. Is it taken into account now? Given that MC supports BD and DVD folders, it should take into account the folder name to select the correct title. I will add this to my list of suggestions.

Regarding my comment, I didn’t make it in the first place, but there is no other way to describe what it does when dealing with dvd/bd/4k bd folders. It’s simply atrocious, I can provide some examples if you want, it would be funny if it didn’t take so long to correct.

I get it that most people use files, but one of the main reasons why I love MC is because it supports full menus, which means folders (ISO in’t an option as they can’t be played by my Oppo clone using network playback.

[JimH]

I believe most people rip with makeMKV and it creates an MKV file.  JRiver supports use with makeMKV.

Another example of language that is offensive and provides no useful information on the problem you have:

... there is no other way to describe what it does when dealing with dvd/bd/4k bd folders. It’s simply atrocious, ...

Start a thread on just that topic and describe the problem without opinionated  negativity.  Keep it brief and on point.  Verbosity can make it hard to follow.

[Manni]

I believe most people rip with makeMKV and it creates an MKV file.  JRiver supports use with makeMKV.

Another example of language that is offensive and provides no useful information on the problem you have:

Start a thread on just that topic and describe the problem without opinionated  negativity.  Keep it brief and on point.  Verbosity can make it hard to follow.

Jim, with all respect positive attitude and comments can be very alienating and not help the discussion.

I have kept it to the point and got no reply or aknowledgement from the team about any of the issues, bugs and feature requests I have made, which does lead to some kind of frustration, especially when the only comments from the team are coming from you, give the impression that you would like to sweep any issue under the carpet and don't provide any indication of whether I am wasting my time trying to use MC as a front end or not.

I have already indicated that I will split up the outstanding bug reports and feature requests into separate threads for clarity and visibility, so there is no need to make that suggestion. I was planning to finish my research in this thread first, but I might be wasting my time, so I will stop now until/unless I hear from the devs whether that's something they'd like to work on or not.

Again, one of JRiver's USPs is full BD menu support. There are no software players that do it as well, and that's one of the main reasons why I'm using it as a player. This means that folders should be properly supported when importing information. I have already explained why I can't and won't move to mkv. This has zero value to me. 1) I need full menus for many reasons and 2) I need folders because one of my players, the Oppo 203, needs folders for its network playback feature. As JRiver MC doesn't support Dolby Vision with folders, I still need the Oppo to play titles that require FEL.

If you prefer, I can simply give up now about using MC as a front end, and not help regarding improving cover art and movie info updating. I've been happy like this for years, and only thought that I would give this a try because I was impressed by the progress made in Theatre View in the last couple of years.

I'm happy to spend some try trying to help improve an already great product, but I'm equally happy to save a lot of time and simply give up on using MC as a front end and go back to using CMC as a front end and MC as a player only.

If WOL doesn't work, if nothing can be done about it and if I'm the only one with these needs, I'll understand.

That's why I've been asking a few times, in vain, for devs to let me know what they want me to do. Drop this topic entirely or split up the bug reports/feature requests into individual threads to improve clarity and visibility?

[mattkhan]

I didn't get what the actual issue with folders is with respect to naming,.is it just that the automated lookup of metadata can be a bit weak and hence is error prone?

[JimH]

Jim, with all respect positive attitude and comments can be very alienating and not help the discussion.

I don't understand.

I have kept it to the point and got no reply or aknowledgement from the team about any of the issues, bugs and feature requests I have made, which does lead to some kind of frustration, especially when the only comments from the team are coming from you, give the impression that you would like to sweep any issue under the carpet and don't provide any indication of whether I am wasting my time trying to use MC as a front end or not.

That is insulting.

I have already indicated that I will split up the outstanding bug reports and feature requests into separate threads for clarity and visibility, so there is no need to make that suggestion. I was planning to finish my research in this thread first, but I might be wasting my time, so I will stop now until/unless I hear from the devs whether that's something they'd like to work on or not.

I don't want your laundry list of suggestions.  I am interested in any problems we can correct, provided they aren't just your problems.  datdude did a good job above of describing why you've got a fringe case.  It's not a common problem.  Most people know how to keep their data on drives that are accessible.

Again, one of JRiver's USPs is full BD menu support. There are no software players that do it as well, and that's one of the main reasons why I'm using it as a player.

Thank you.

This means that folders should be properly supported when importing information. I have already explained why I can't and won't move to mkv. This has zero value to me. 1) I need full menus for many reasons and 2) I need folders because one of my players, the Oppo 203, needs folders for its network playback feature. As JRiver MC doesn't support Dolby Vision with folders, I still need the Oppo to play titles that require FEL.

OK

If you prefer, I can simply give up now about using MC as a front end, and not help regarding improving cover art and movie info updating. I've been happy like this for years, and only thought that I would give this a try because I was impressed by the progress made in Theatre View in the last couple of years.

I'm glad you're trying, but so far I'm not convinced you've got an issue that is worth JRiver spending a few thousand dollars fixing or changing.

I'm happy to spend some try trying t help improve an already great product,

So far, you're not doing that.  I suggested a concise description and you came back with a wall of text about our lack of attention to your problem. 

Believe me, your trouble accessing your data is your problem, not ours.

but I'm equally happy to save a lot of time and simply give up on using MC as a front end and go back to using CMC as a front end and MC as a player only.

You've said that.

If WOL doesn't work, if nothing can be done about it and if I'm the only one with these needs, I'll understand.

WOL isn't relevant.  You could organize your drives into categories and use Windows to access them before you start.  Or turn on your arrays before you do anything and pay the couple of dollars it might cost per week.

That's why I've been asking a few times, in vain, for devs to let me know what they want me to do. Drop this topic entirely or split up the bug reports/feature requests into individual threads to improve clarity and visibility?

I am a dev.  I'm telling you what to do. 

Drop the argumentative tone and tactics first.

Post a simple and concise description of any proposal.  Don't tell us what we have to do to work around your use case.

[Manni]

Apologies if anything I wrote was read as insulting, that was definitely not the intention.

Thanks, I'll restore my back up and am going back to using CMC as a front end and MC solely as an external player.

My issues with WOL and the libray are certainly not worth JRiver spending a few thousands dollars to solve if that's just to benefit myself. I thought that improving folders import and adding power saving features as well as fixing bugs in the interface was adding some value to MC, and that's the spirit in which I was spending that much time trying to make this work, along with the fact that I liked the recent improvements in Theatre View (congrats again to the team for that).

It's certainly not worth my time either if you're not interested in my suggestions and if you believe that no one else is or will ever be interested in saving energy and help the environment. Believe me, this has NOTHING to do with the few dollars saved per year. It's about reducing my carbon footprint as much as I can and preventing avoidable energy waste. I fully understand that not everyone cares about that, or even believes it matters.

[BryanC]

I have an unrelated but relevant issue on MC for Linux regarding (what I believe to be) unnecessary filesystem accesses when using the modern tag editor. I work around the issue by using an MC Library Client to perform tag editing, which seems to operate purely on the shared database and doesn't lag like working directly on the server.

I haven't tracked all of your posts Manni, nor understand your third-party integration, but maybe you could try using Theater View on a Library Client to see if it still causes your NAS headaches during browsing.

[JimH]

For the record, I've not said that saving energy is unimportant.  We've offered the JRiver Id for a decade in part because of energy savings.

I've also not said that I'm not interested in your ideas. 

If I'm not mistaken, Wake on Lan wakes up a network device like your NAS itself.  The NAS software is deciding whether to spin up a particular drive.  So it isn't WOL that you need.  Simply doing a directory of the drive would spin it up.

Give makeMKV a try.  It's free and easy.

[mattkhan]

The issue is that the nas in this case is a server rather than some low power device hence the need to wake the server as well as spin up the drive

Currently managing such problems requires use of an external remote to drive everything as that can then be programmed to make things work. This is obviously only practical if you already use such a remote though.

Mkv is not relevant either as there are valid reasons for someone to use bdmv