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[zevele10]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/2502399.stm

Have a look .
Not so much that p2p are here to stay .
But they may one day understand it and we would have good music online.

Think about it : Emusic at MP3 192 kps  ,around 2000 songs to download a month at -let say - $18 a month ,$15 if you take one year.
You get tags ,some infos about the band or he album .
If a song is no good ,you tell them and they fix it.
If you use MJ download manager,you even get the sleeve.

Would you use p2p to get this songs? With all the mess  with tags ,incomplete songs and so on?

If you say yes ,you are as much f.. b... than them.....

Now think about not Emusic doing it ,but the same thing for all labels.

Look like Kazza and others would have much much less people using they program

[ChicoSelfs]

Great news, let's see what Happens in the few days or months. Maybe they open their eyes

[MachineHead]

Better hope they don't come up with an idea like this...SELF DESTRUCTING MEDIA

[studentii]

TO  ALL USERS WHO STREAM AND/OR DOWNLOAD MUSIC  
     TRACKS FROM THE INTERNET

a) I always go out and BUY from my Store

b) If the Music Industry ever agree on the Downloading thing,
   the system SHOULD be

    - pay normal price, same as a Store
    - each Internet User should be registered
    - there should be a " cooling off " period
      between the release of music and it's
      availibilty on the Internet.

No,, I am not a Professional Musician, with vested interest. I'm a " fair dinkum " Australian. In Australia we hate " bludging " which is our way of saying that it's wrong to take someone else's work without fair exchange. A " Bludger " in Australia is a Loafer, a Person who lets everyone else do the work. These Musicians puts absolute millions of $$ into their work. They are entitled to a fair return for their efforts by People going to see their Live Performances or buying their CD's etc in the Stores.

This subject makes me angry !!!
Go and spend some money !!!

Tenderfoot

[KingSparta]

>> a) I always go out and BUY from my Store
I go to the Pawn Shops\used CD Stores it is cheeper

normaly I can barder with the CD store to take a $1.00 off the price of a used CD maybe bringing it down to $3.00 - $5.00 each depends on how many i buy. Pawn shops I can get them normaly from $1.00 to $2.00

I do not normaly go in and buy a new CD it is like buying a car as soon as you take it off the lot the value goes down.


Listening to: 'You Spin Me Round (Like A Record)' from 'The Best Of Dead Or Alive' by 'Dead Or Alive' on Media Jukebox Charted At 11 In 1985

[phelt]

studentii:
I'm curious as to why you think that the price should be the same as buying in a store. If you aren't getting the disc, the case, the liner notes, cover, etc., and the quality of the audio is not as good as it is on the CD, why should it cost the same amount?

Also, I dunno about musicians putting millions into their work - not that some don't, but certainly not all.

Last, please note that I'm not fight-picking - just interested in  opinions  

[studentii]

I'ts so g-o-o-d to have a lively discussion with people who obviously have an intelligent point of view on this subject.

Thank You !!!

One of the explanations for our independence of opinion in Australia is the vastness of this Country. I have heard that some of America is like this ( Texas etc ). In places away from the Seaboard in Australia,we don't have the resources at our " fingertips " we have to be completely self reliant and this attitude of self reliance colors much of our thinking and daily living. Did you know that the whole of Great Britain, for example, would fit into the South East Corner of the State of Queensland where I live.

I also believe that the United States of America would fit quite comfortably within Australai with a whole lot of room for more. I don't want to quote this one, as I did my Geography a long time ago.

As to the cost of making music videos, $200,000 - $500 000 would be pretty average.  I thought I heard that one of Michael Jackson's video efforts came in around a cool $1 000 000 USD. Costs of this order were quite normal for say Groups like FleetWood Mac.

The cost of Touring doesn't bear thinking about

In the studio I know that Avalon were charging $65-00 USD per hour. ( this information is available on their Web Site ). Six months in the Studio " ain't cheap "

I agree with the comment that streamed or downloaded music could suffer in quality for all sorts of reasons

Let's talk " turkey ". In Australia we would say " Let's not pull ( hold back ) any punches ". Has this Internet Music thing been designed and promoted by some very clever Marketing People, not necessarily with any direct connection to the Music Industry

Regards
Tenderfoot

[Charlemagne 8]

A " Bludger " in Australia is a Loafer, a Person who lets everyone else do the work.

[/size]

Here, we call them music executives.

To be fair, those millions that go into making a CD or going on a tour don't come from the artists - it comes from the record industry as an organization. That organization DOES, however, have a lot of "bludgers" in it.

I agree on two of the above points:

1. If legal music of guaranteed high quality was available at a fair price, p2p's would slowly fade away ... OR at least be used as an FTP organization for the legal transmission of files.

2. A fair price for on-line music is NOT the same as a fair price for "store-bought" music. As was pointed out, for online music (to make a CD) the customer provides the media, the software, the hardware, the cases, the art work and all of the other things that come with a "store-bought" CD.
If all of that was a part of the on-lne deal (how, I have no idea) THEN it MIGHT be worth 90% of the cost. The customer would still have to provide hardware, software and the storage of the media, then assemble the pieces.

Before the advent of on-line music "trading", when confronted with the cost of a blank CD and the small percentage paid to the artist, the music industry claimed that the majority of the cost at the music store was in the packaging and enclosed documents. We don't hear that anymore now that it has dawned on the Industry that they couldn't provide that on-line.

Fair is fair, right is right and I don't advocate P2P's for stealing music, but, well, fair is fair and we need a decent deal. I don't want the music industry to steal from me any more than they want us to steal from them but the sad fact is that the majority of the artists are not going to get a fair deal no matter which way it goes.

Thanks for the soap box.

CVIII

[JimH]

student,
Welcome aboard.  Nice to 'ave another aussie 'ere.

I got in a related conversation over on Hydrogenaudio yesterday.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?act=ST&f=17&t=4572&hl=&s=50838d9816b0b933a0ca0ef475c1f224

It is crucial now that people who enjoy digital music give record labels a chance to deliver.  I think it's starting to happen.

[Charlemagne 8]

It is crucial now that people who enjoy digital music give record labels a chance to deliver.  I think it's starting to happen.  

I do believe you're right. EMusic and Rhapsody are definitely going in the right direction. There may be others. I have the feeling that these forays into the realm of thieves are experiments and are being closely watched by the Industry.
CVIII

BTW, Welcome, studentii, to the Media Jukebox Argumentarian Society. We would have regular meetings but we can't agree on a time so we just fire one up whenever we feel froggy and see what happens.

[JaredH]

Here is my opinion:

1: I download songs to see if I like the song, If i like the song (or songs) then i will go out and buy the CD. I am in full support of supporting the artists because contrary to what people may believe, they have a talent, and that is their career, therefore they are entitled to the profits made from those sales. Not only that but most artist get a screwey deal in their contract and usually only end up making about 10% of the entire revenue of their music and then certain percentages come out of what they make for production costs, touring, advertising, etc.

2: I think that by using the same technology as Kazaa, Morpheus, Napster, etc. all the record labels could combine efforts and tag each track so that if one is downloaded that is liscensed to BMG, BMG will get a portion of the sales. Then instead of charging an astronomical fee, charge a minimal monthly fee for using the server, and then charge $1 a track or $15 a album for complete albums with 15 tracks or more. It would all have to be perfect quality. Given the choice of different bitrates such as lossless format for those of us who like flawless music and 128 - 320 bitrate for those who want compressed files. Make the media transferrable to portable devices. With all the technology out there im sure they could even make the tracks burnable to blank discs with special encoding that make them non-ripable from cd.

3: The RIAA and other groups are making a mountain out of a mole hill in this matter and are not only biting, but devouring, the hand that feeds them. If they would take an intelligent step back, they could turn the problem they are facing into the very solution they need. They obviously have no intentions on dropping CD prices like they said would eventually happen so its only fair. But their defense in the CD prices not dropping is that they now add special media to most all CD's now. Most of which, no one gives a rats ass about. Dont get me wrong, its neat to see back stage clips and stuff, but when i buy a CD I buy it for the music, if i want bonus crap, ill go out and buy a concert DVD or music video collection DVD. Save that stuff for separate media, dont package it with the music and then use it as an excuse to leave prices at their astronomical point.

4: They also need to embrace the fact that no matter how hard you try, there are always going to be people that are going to find a way around paying for something when they can get it for free. Nothing will stop that, but they can lessen the problem by not being the bully and offering reasonable, legal, alternatives that are efficient and take advantage of the technology at hand.

5: This could all be very simple. But naturally, greed rears its ugly head and turns it into a virtual catastrophe.

[studentii]

Hello Everyone !!!
Saturday,, p.m. in " Aussie Land - Queensland version "

Thankyou for my Membership in the " Media JukeBox Argumentarian Society ". It's really good to have a " Board of Directors " who express open, honest, difference of opinion  This is the only way to get the best result.
( Yup, you guessed it, I run my own Company )

TO:   JIM H   Admin

Well, if I read your comments correctly, I should have known why MJ is so good - designed by an " Aussie "

However, I must add that being an " Aussie " myself, I should have got the Program up and running much faster than I did.

TO: JARED H  Senior Woodchuck

love your logo " I'm only partially right 100% of the time ".

I have three motivational boosters on my Computer Monitor which read -

#1   " Once I thought Iwas wrong but I was mistaken "

#2   " This Project is so secret even I don't know
          what I'm doing "

#3   " This life must be a test, if it was the real thing
         we'd be given better instructions "

I think #2 got me when I was trying to load MJ9

TO:  CVIII

       nice to see someones knows their LATIN. I was
       Latin "A" Grade at High School. Yes!! We Aussies
       know how to brag, we are renowned for it.
       My Latin teacher could speak, read and write
       fluent Ancient Roman.

       TO THE MATTER AT HAND.

        Yes, I agree that it should be a FTP Transfer
        ( controlled ). Each User should have what I
        would loosely call, " Internet Music Download
         Licence ", issued annually, fee to pay, and
         individually coded to the Person. And there
         should be Pre Qualifying Conditions to get
         the Licence in the first place.

          Your point about who gets the money in the real
          world is my main thing. I remember Groups like
          Credence ClearWater Revival in the 70's. If my
          information is correct, there was a lot of
          Revenue around and John and the Boys didn't
          see much of it. We had similar in Australia.
          A very popular Group here in the 70's,
          SHERBERT had a professional song writing Team.
          From what I understand, the Song Writers didn't
          go hungry too often. there are other examples,
          Both Marcia Barrett and Liz Mitchell ( of Boney M
          fame ) musical efforts were " choked " by their
          former Producer.even after the Group had
          disbanded.
          there is no legal " thin ice " here - its all on the    
          Public Record. I'm with you - I just hate being
          " ripped off "

I am now a " Digital Person "     Aren't we all !!!!
But I think some of my attitude to Music comes from my cultural background. I come from the earlier era The 70's ( and a little before that I won't own up to ). The 70's!! WOW!! It just kept coming at you. we saw it on TV, we went to the Concerts, we bought the Records, Dad used to " sing " to his Kids, thinking he was the next Rock 'n Roll Star. It was a LIVE EXPERIENCE.

Music in the 90's and now, has actually gone through a social revolution.  Its gone back to Techno and Videos
I'm not saying that this is bad - music is a very personal thing - if you like it, it's good. But what I am saying is that the emphasis on Technical Production in modern music lends itself very well to the Computer age. I agree, rather than the Music Companies seeing the download as their enemy, use it. probably one day I can say " Oh no!! I can't do that,, I'm with EMI - I'm not registered with Columbia yet ' ". the Record Companies themselves should take direct control of the downloading process through a system of Registered Users, b-u-t as we all say at a fair price.

TO:  JUNIOR WOODCHUCK

      I haven't forgotten you. You can't expect to pay
      the same on the NET as you would in a Store.
      My choice of words wasn't very good. What I was
      really getting at was People wanting something for
      nothing or next to nothing

Regards to you all and thank you
Long live the Media JukeBox Forum

Student ii,, Queensland,, Australia
Little 'ol Tenderfoot
   

[martinhw]

Here's just a thought................
I am originally from South Africa, now living in the UK.
The average CD in S.A used to cost around R80.00 which translates at todays exchange rate to £5.16. I bought Shania Twain "Up!" this week and paid £12.99 for it. This lead me to look up the South African online stores retail price and found it to be R92.60, after the exchange rate = £5.97. NOW WHO'S RIPPING WHO OFF ? Why is there such a vast price difference among countries, and if you buy online, which countries price structure are they going to use ?

[MachineHead]

Here's just a thought................
I am originally from South Africa, now living in the UK.
The average CD in S.A used to cost around R80.00 which translates at todays exchange rate to £5.16. I bought Shania Twain "Up!" this week and paid £12.99 for it. This lead me to look up the South African online stores retail price and found it to be R92.60, after the exchange rate = £5.97. NOW WHO'S RIPPING WHO OFF ? Why is there such a vast price difference among countries, and if you buy online, which countries price structure are they going to use ?

This probably has more to do with shipping, exchange, taxation rates amongst different countries. It takes more to send it one country than another.

On The Subject...

I still do not believe in file swapping without some compensation for those who put it out. I also (and I promise not to go somewhere else with this) don't think it is right for the big companies to slide the rug out from underneath everyones feet. 'Nough said on that.

If there were secure means for the artist and label to deliver high quality files at a reasonable rate, and still make a buck, then I wouldn't mind using that at all. But for the time being they have no way of knowing that purchaser X isn't going to immeadiately turn around and upload that file to some P2P network. Dilemma. How do we both get what we want? I want a great sounding file at a reasonable rate. That I can also use as I see fit. That does not mean swapping it. They want to make profit and not have same file I just downloaded posted in P2P wonderland.

It is going to take a long time before someone comes up with a deal that is appealing to both parties interested. And at this point in time, neither is really helping out the other.

[Roger_the_Shrubber]

I live in South Africa (the thriving metropolis of Kenton-on-Sea...pop. 4000) and have it on extremely good authority that the cd stores in SA mark up by 100% (meybe even more)........hmmmmm.....paying a premium for overstocking & lack of market knoeldge??

Make the dl price half of "hard copy" retail and I'll go beserk...

Also......SA cd's are locally manufactured....quality known to be suspect....imported cd's cost at least twice as much.

I remember  the good ol' vinyl days well.....buy a "local pressing" and tape the darn thing before it deteriorates (i.e. magically appearing clicks & pops), which they did rather quickly.

btw, just bought MC9....wow....EXTREME EXCELLENCE, people. I'm really knocked out.

Another btw....ain't summer cool? Greetings from sunny SA.......

Hey JJ (ex Peterborough)......had a good few for you the other night dude....

[PhatPhreddy]

Hi all,

Great to be back in a discussion forum where IP rights and audio content are respected as well as (occasionally) abused....  Spent a couple of months on the road... Had a few lucky moments with (as us Brits say) having my collar felt... But still living free and lucky.... Please forgive any typo's but its 7:45 AM with me and all my compadres are dead to the world (house full of zombies... Damn this insomnia) ... I have to resort to the faceless typographic tools of the forum world...

Anyway... I am a self professed audio snob... Matt first gave us the tools to go lossless (ot at least first easily made them availabe to winblows fools like me) and unless I can get my feeds at CD or better quality then an still going to act snooty !! As much as I love APE, WMP9 is giving us lossless at 24/96 multichannel... This opens up DVD-A ripping solutions (and I dont mean the creative toytown junk... M-Audio have a SW DVD-A player for jan / feb next year....

So what will I pay... I by a lot of CD's... Many by mail order... Even on my wierd Asian sat hookup that charges me per 100MB over my monthly limit it is still cheaper to DL than buy... I dont want the disk (I RAID my storage and so have some security) and really the covers / lyrics are nothing more than fluff....

When the distribution community will understand that I will pay for purely distributable bits (but good bits... No MP3 / Musepack / etc... Lossless or nothing !!!) then they have a revenue source from me (not a trivial one either)... I know that many see MP3 as the solution to the bandwidth problem, but bandwidth gets cheaper by the day... I am not happy to invest in anything less than 44.1/16 and even that is starting to sound limited !!

Many times I am happy to kick MS in the ass, however... With WMP9 encoding tools, there are lossless abilities... The abiltity to encode HD video (to 1080p no less) with multi channel sound... And with the leaked elecard renderers these are usable on P2.2 and up machines... I have friends in Japan and Korea with optical fibre to thier apartment blocks... These are 100 mbps links.... with HD being 19.2 mbps you are talking > 50 HD channels streamed on demand down pipes like that...    
   
The future of TV is IP... Same as the telcos are reluctantly learning so will the media giants...

These are my hobbies... these are my fascianations... If anyone needs a consultant that cant sleep and when is involved in a project commits more energy than a ghibli (look it up... I spent time in the deserts) on dexadrine... Mail me... Projects with profound implications in the way we consume media v the old school of one way suck it up and like it feeds prefered...  

[JimH]

zzzzzz.... sweet dreams, phred....

[Charlemagne 8]

"ghibli"
Apparently it's a movie studio, a vacuum cleaner and a Maserati that looks suspiciously like a cross between a Corvette and a Jaguar.
However, the clue to what you MAY mean is on the Maserati Ghibli web page: "Ghibli - a hot dust bearing wind of the North African desert "




\http://www.maserati-indy.co.uk/alfieri69.htm

[JimH]

"One can always trust a land surveyor."

-- H.D. Thoreau, West Concord, Massachusetts, 1857

[studentii]

zzzzzz.... sweet dreams, phred....

Dear  Jim,, Mr Chairman

It's just " grouse,, great,, and groovy " being able to write to Someone who " speaka the same 'Lingo ".
For the benefit of Forum Board Members, " grouse " in Australia means " fantastic ", " perfect ".

But , I agree with you, we have to sleep sometime
or did you mean
Can we talk about something else. There are other items on the Agenda.

No , I don't sit at my Computer 24 hours a day, I really
do some work. I just wanted to get my " two bob's worth " in.  I had no idea how much the Media Forum's Ratings would skyrocket. Let's keep it going. Maybe, someone out there in the Music Industry will take notice and come to a balanced view on this subject.

Long live Music

Kindest regards
Studentii
Australia

[Charlemagne 8]

student ii,

"Grouse" here, when not talking about the bird, means to complain incessantly about everything. That's my definition. Webster may have other ideas. I'm fairly sure so I'm not going to look it up. I'm sure someone else will.

And "taking notice" or coming to "a balanced decision" is not something the Industry does well ... so far. There is always hope.

JimH,
Thanks for the quote. I made a pilgrimage to the gravesite of another famous surveyor that I believe passed through your area at one time.







If you're interested, here are more on the same trip:

\http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=331&folderid=45782&groupid=64865&folderview=thumbs&ck=

and

\http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=331&folderid=45781&groupid=64865&folderview=thumbs&ck=

CVIII

BTW, How do you make a url link with just a word or phrase?

[Charlemagne 8]

A boy with his dad.

[Charlemagne 8]

Almost Famous.



All but one was a legitimate post. But then I was so close, I had to go for it.

Hmmm. Nero fiddled while Rome burned. I, on the other hand, am having a great time on December 1.

CVIII  

[JimH]

Remember December Xen Uno!

[zevele10]

Hmmm. Nero fiddled while Rome burned. I, on the other hand, am having a great time on December 1.



Many references to first of December
Why?
MC9?

[Charlemagne 8]

Zevele,

I may be way off base but it seemed to me that the JRiver folks were having a great many fires to put out yesterday.
I, on the other hand (I love saying that) have had a very crappy day where Mr. Murphy was an integral member of my crew. Serves me right for my blase attitude yesterday.

I'm home, now and all is well.

CVIII

[JimH]

Wat can go wrong dude?

It's all part of the pleasure of doing [fill in the blank].

Thanks for noticing our fires.

All is well now.

[Lucy]

I want to believe in digital music subscription but there are something which should be careful.

1. would the distribution company pay good price to the record labels and singers who give them permission to distribute their music online? I don't want the distribution company to earn a great deal while sort of cheating the record labels and singers.

2. If they do not pay a good price to the labels, who is stealing the intellectual right?

3. and the "US Residents only" issue. I was VERY discontent when Emusic did not allow me to download their new arrivals because I am not US residents. While musicmatch and Weblisten are for all countries, Rhapsody, Pressplay, Full Audio are for some people only.

Oh, Radio Free Virgin now offers the subscription service of streaming for only $4.95 month, but I have not tried it. Anyone have comments?
Lucy

[Azure]

In the thread Jim linked, it's a pretty interesting (yet typical) debate that's going on.  Is it piracy to download music online?  Is it wrong?  Or is it justifiable by comparing it to the evils of the music industry?  Everyone gets pretty wound up, they stop listening to each other and try to beat each other down with opinions.  It's interesting, though.

Right now, I'm listening to an obscure artist that was recommended to me.  I have the entire album downloaded and I love it.  As a result, I'm having a local independent music retailer order the CD and I'll pay the even higher price from him.  

I, for one, operate on these beliefs:

1)  CDs are too expensive for me to buy one on the basis of having heard one or two songs on the radio.  Stations have a tragic lack of variety here and I don't have the luxury of crossing my fingers and hoping when I buy a CD.

2)  If I like the majority of the music on a CD, I will gladly purchase it for $10 - $20.  Even more.  It's worth it for music I really enjoy.  Exactly the same stance I take with movies, though I rent them to get the test I do with music.

3)  I download music on the internet.  That is wrong and I regret it, because the only songs I keep are the ones I like.  I've chosen between the lesser of two evils (piracy vs. poverty).  

3b)  Finding good copies of music online is a pain.  Not just high bitrates, but even just simply a full song without defects.

4)  Given a legal way to pay for the tracks that I love, but wouldn't buy the entire CD for, I would gladly do so.  Music, again, is worth it to me.

I may sound a lot like most people out there.  I hope that I do.  Most I've talked to aren't downloading music as an act of revenge but rather as taste-testing to make informed purchases.  

I also hope that services like E-music and similar sorts thrive.