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[bspachman]

I've never been a big "burner", but recently, I've been sending some albums to friends stationed in Iraq burning some music for personal use only and have hit some problems. I don't know if I'm doing something wrong, if I have media problems, if MC is having problems, or if I have hardware/OS problems. If anyone has ideas, I'm open to them.

The symptom is that when the CD is played back, it sounds like the tracks have "static" on them. The static varies in loudness and how often it repeats, but it's certainly there. The difficulty is that it appears to different degrees on different players. My high-end player seems to mask it almost entirely, but my low-end Discman is very susceptible to it.

Other things I've noticed is that it nearly always gets worse as the CD play--higher numbered tracks have more static than lower numbered tracks.

I've tried lowering my burn speed from the highest (16x) all the way down to 1x. Burning at 1x seems to help a bit, but the static is still there. MC9.1 is the only thing running (besides background services, etc.)

I'm using reputable media--TDK 80min CD-R discs. I lost the exact specs of the blanks, but I'm sure the max burning speed is higher than 16x.

Is there anything I should try in MC? Anything I should look at in my OS installation? Being a Mac user 98% of the time, I'm not familiar with anything to look for.

Thanks! Here's my system info:

Media Center Registered 9.1.250 -- C:\Program Files\J River\Media Center\

Microsoft Windows 2000  Workstation 5.0 Service Pack 4 (Build 2195)
Intel Pentium 4 1807 MHz MMX / Memory: Total - 523 MB, Free - 366 MB

Internet Explorer: 6.0.2800.1106 / ComCtl32.dll: 5.81 / Shlwapi.dll: 6.00.2800.1226 / Shell32.dll: 5.00.3700.6705 / wnaspi32.dll: 4.71 (0002) , ASPI for Win32 (95/NT) DLL, Copyright © 1989-2002 Adaptec, Inc. / Aspi32.sys: 4.71 (0002)

Ripping /   Drive Z:   Copy mode:ModeSecure   CD Type:Auto   Read speed:Max
 Digital playback: Yes /  Use YADB: Yes /  Get cover art: Yes /  Calc replay gain: Yes /  Copy volume: 32767
 Eject after ripping: Yes /  Play sound after ripping: No  

Burning /  Drive Z: TOSHIBA  DVD-ROM SD-R1202   Addr: 0:1:0  Speed:1  MaxSpeed:16  BurnProof:Yes
 Test mode: No /  Eject after writing: Yes /  Direct decoding: No /  Write CD-Text: Yes
 Use playback settings: No /  Normalization: None

[Omni]

I shouldn't reply to this since you are openly declaring your illegal activities.  <looking over shoulder for subpoena from RIAA>

Not to muddy your waters, but I had a static issue once with a drive (a Plextor, no less!) fresh from the store.  It was exactly as you described.  I took it back; replaced it with a Yamaha drive; problem solved.  (I'm back with Plextor now with their latest model.)

Can you burn "clean" CD's with any other program?  If not, then your drive itself may be defective like mine was.  If yes, then I am sure JohnT will jump in to help you any minute now.

Omni

[JohnT]

Here's an interesting thread on burned CD's with static:

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8995&whichpage=1

Is your burner the master drive on it's own IDE channel? If it's the slave drive sharing an IDE channel with the hard drive, that could be the problem.
Like Omni said, it could just be a defective drive, especially if you get the same result with other burn software.

[bspachman]

Here's an interesting thread on burned CD's with static:

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8995&whichpage=1

Is your burner the master drive on it's own IDE channel? If it's the slave drive sharing an IDE channel with the hard drive, that could be the problem.

Good call. The burner is the slave on the secondary IDE channel. This question also made me realize that my "Temp" directory was located on the HD that was the master on the burner's IDE channel. I'm going to try changing the location of my temp directory, if that fails, I'll try making the burner the master drive on that channel. If that fails, I'll try making the burner the only drive on that channel.

Some of the other burner threads talk a lot about something called DMA. What is that? Is it something I should investigate to make sure things are set properly?

Like Omni said, it could just be a defective drive, especially if you get the same result with other burn software.

I do have another burning program, but it can't hold a candle to MC for ease of use. I'll give it a whirl too if the hardware investigations don't pan out.

Thanks for the suggestions!
Brad

[JohnT]

Some of the other burner threads talk a lot about something called DMA. What is that? Is it something I should investigate to make sure things are set properly?

Here's a link with information at the end about switching between PIO and DMA modes:

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/hwdev/tech/storage/IDE-DMA.mspx

[jleerigby]

For info normal config for your IDE channels is as follows:

IDE 0 (Primary) Master (The one at the end of the cable) - Main Hard Drive

IDE 0 (Primary) Slave (The one in the middle of the cable) - A second hard drive if you have one

IDE 1 (Secondary) Master - CD-RW

IDE 1 (Secondary) Slave - CD-ROM

[bspachman]

Thanks for the input! I'm on my way to solving it. Here's the current situation/setup.

Primary IDE: master=C-drive
    slave=D-drive
Secondary IDE: master=DVD/CD-RW
    slave=E-drive

Moving my "Temp" folder from my E drive to the D drive helped a lot. A burn at 2x speed resulted in no audible artifacts! However, the same burn at 16x speed resulted in a very low level of static and a tendancy to skip and stutter.

Ripping a WAV from the 2x disc and the 16x disc with EAC and using the "Compare WAV" command showed that the WAVs were exactly the same.

So, a few followup questions:

1) Do you think it still will be worthwhile to move the burner to a separate IDE channel?

2) What will be the effect of turning the "Decode files directly to disc" option back on?

3) Any other hints to increase the burning speed?

Thanks,
Brad

[Markeau]

FWIW I too had static on cda's burned on a Yamaha, but the static was only on a GM automobile changer (Delco 12 disc unit, but it is really a rebadged Pioneer).  However, there was no static when playing the same burned cda's in any other player.   And the static increased in the higher numbered tracks, in fact on a few cda's the highest numbered tracks would also skip.

I found that reducing the burn speed from 20x or 16x down to 4x got rid of the static in that one cd changer.  But, now I've replaced that Yamaha burner with a Pioneer A06 DVD burner, and 16x cda burns don't have any static on that same 12 disc changer - weird.  I suppose the Yamaha was introducing jitter or something (might that be part of the reason they exited the market?

I realize the OP said they reduced their burn speed down to 1x but thought I'd at least report my results as they might help somebody else.  Oh, and I'm using Maxell 80min media.

[JohnT]

Moving my "Temp" folder from my E drive to the D drive helped a lot. A burn at 2x speed resulted in no audible artifacts! However, the same burn at 16x speed resulted in a very low level of static and a tendancy to skip and stutter.

Ripping a WAV from the 2x disc and the 16x disc with EAC and using the "Compare WAV" command showed that the WAVs were exactly the same.

The only thing I can think of is that it's a hardware problem in the burner. Perhaps there isn't sufficient laser power at the higher speeds to burn an easily readable data stream.  Possibly EAC in secure mode can read the data correctly but normal CD players have trouble.
Might be worth trying putting it as master on it's own IDE channel and turning off the "decode directly" option. Also defrag the hard disk and quit all other programs. If that doesn't do it, you may need to live with 2X speed or buy a new burner.
Is the burner firmware up to date? Is the IDE channel running in DMA mode (not PIO)?

[JimH]

Brad,
I think you're saying that the wav files on the 2x disk and the 16x disk are the same.

If that's true, the drive that's reading the disks is having trouble with one and not the other.

Have you tried different colored disks?

[bspachman]

Current setup:
    IDE0 Master=C: (80GB)
    IDE0 Slave=D: (80GB)
    IDE1 Master=Toshiba DVD-CD/RW
    IDE1 Slave=E: (120GB)

    All temp files in MC9.1 to D: drive

Current situation:
    I burn a playlist onto 80min media, using about 76 minutes worth.
    Some burns skip and track poorly (lots of seeking to find the start of a track)
    Some burns show static on later tracks
----------
Omni's suggestion to try another burning program:

Yes. Instant CD/DVD 6.4 worked better at both 8x and 16x speeds. Its temp directories were set to various subdirectories on the C: drive, but I was burning WAVs directly from the D: drive. I didn't get static, but the skipping was about the same.

Unfortunately, it puts a 2s. gap between tracks. I found out how to eliminate the gap, but there is an audible "click" when the gap length is set to 0s.
----------
JimH:

Yes, the WAV images from all burned discs are the same when compared with EAC's "Compare WAV" function.

I don't know what you mean about different colored discs. I've only seen silver & black, and someone told me a long time ago that the black ones were usually hard to get clean burns on, so I've always stuck to the silver ones.
----------
JohnT:

Yes, I think the drives and burner are running in DMA mode.

I did some shooting in the dark and updated my motherboard BIOS (Asus p4b533-VM) and installed all the latest Intel chipset drivers and the latest Intel Application Accelerator (v2.3). I know the Intel App Accelerator has something to do with the IDE bus, but I have no idea if it helps it or hurts it. Regardless, none of the updates seem to have made a difference. (Except for exasperating me...I want my Mac back) I also triple-checked to make sure my burner's firmware is up-to-date...it is.

The IAC report shows the drives are running in DMA5 mode and the burner is running in DMA2 mode.
----------
Making the burner the Master on the secondary IDE bus didn't really help. This time, instead of having static at 8x speed, I had static at 16x speed. I'm going to try a few more discs with my other burning program (while my drives are connected in my default configureation) to see if it really is producing good burns. One irritating thing is that sometimes the problems happen when burning slowly, other times when burning at maximum speed, sometimes when decoding directly to disc, and other times when not decoding. There hasn't been a pattern that I can discern.

Any other ideas for things to check in MC? Any suggestions for other DVD-CD/RW drives? The current one is out of warranty, so I guess I would look into replacing it if neccessary.

Thanks!
Brad

[JimH]

Brad,
Definitely try other brands of disks.  You'll see green and gold disks, too.  Some players don't like some colors.

Jim

[Sauzee]

This is almost certainly a media compatibilty problem.

When I first got into burning CD's I discovered this same static problem as you describe, except the static noise tended to be worse at the beginning of CD's in my case.

It drove me nuts. I tried absolutely everything with varying degrees of success.  There were so many variables involved it was difficult to isolate the cause.

Six months later and I still hadn't solved the problem.

Then one day I tried a Verbatim Data Life Plus CDR and and the static noise vanished on all my players.  Actually the static noise is not on the CD - It is created by your player.  That's why you get different results on different players.

I have found these CDR's to play on anything. Even when my DVD Rom died and wouldn't play any CD's, including factory pressed CD's, the Verbatim's still played.

The other key discovery I made was that, with less compatible media[in my case almost all other brands],  that slowing the burning speed helped. But some brands of CDr just won't play back properly no matter what you try.

I strongly recommend that the first thing you do is buy about 10 different brands of CDR media and try burning them all at the same [relatively slow, say x8] speed.

Don't change anything else about the burn [you can change the music, of course ].

It might save you an enormous amount of tweaking with hardware settings, changing burning apps, replacing CD burners etc etc.........

Once you find CDR media that plays back - buy loads of it.

Hope that helps

[bspachman]

I guess it's off to the store to see if other media can help....

More to come!
Brad

[bspachman]

An update!

Aside from the stuttering problem I'm experiencing with builds higher than .256 (apparently an APE or and ASIO problem), my burns are much cleaner with different media.

I found some 80min Sony & Maxell blank CD-R that are supposedly optimized for Audio use. Both brands are performing much better than the TDK discs I had been having trouble with. I also found some Maxell non-Audio discs that won't even play on some of my players.

So...what's the deal with "Audio" optimized CD-R media? Is it really a different formulation, or is it just marketing hype. Any experiences or pointers would be welcome.

Thanks!
Brad

[adiosjefe]

I have the same problem.  Decode files directly to cd is not available.  I have a 24X CDR and can decode directly to CD with anything else.

[MachineHead]

So...what's the deal with "Audio" optimized CD-R media? Is it really a different formulation, or is it just marketing hype. Any experiences or pointers would be welcome.

It means you get to add an additional tax to your purchase to fund the RIAA (it's true). Regular CD-R media is just labeled different. The only thing that might make a difference is another brand. Some are a bit better then others, but not because they are optimized.

[Sauzee]

MachineHead is dead right.  I've actually had more problems with CDR's "optimised" for audio.

But they might work for you.  It really is just a case of trying lots of different brands to find ones that work in your players.

My personal experience is that CD's with dark blue recording surfaces play well on my ageing Technics CD player whilst silver ones tend to have problems.

Having said that, you might find the opposite in your case  

[bspachman]

So...what's the deal with "Audio" optimized CD-R media? Is it really a different formulation, or is it just marketing hype. Any experiences or pointers would be welcome.

It means you get to add an additional tax to your purchase to fund the RIAA (it's true). Regular CD-R media is just labeled different. The only thing that might make a difference is another brand. Some are a bit better then others, but not because they are optimized.

That's what I was figuring, but I guess I'll work with my "Audio-optimized" CD-Rs until I'm out of them, then continue the search.

I'm just happy I found a couple of brands that seem to work well with every player I've tested.

Thanks for everyone's help!
Brad