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[soren]

Jim,

When you deal with these companies, please make them understand that lossy formats are simply not acceptable in an online store.

If they want to last they will have to offer high quality and high definition audio.
I assume they have access to the masters as apple seem to have with itunes.
then 24 bit 96 Khz should be an option!

If not, lossless audio will have to do until they have.

/Sören

[m26]

When you deal with these companies, please make them understand that lossy formats are simply not acceptable in an online store.

Thank you for saying that.  I was thinking the exact same thing.  I am interested in digital music delivery, but I utterly detest reduced-quality formats, no matter how enthusiastically they are marketed or raved about by users.

It's bad enough that the sound quality you sometimes get when you buy CDs is slipping; I don't need to have double the audio detriment by paying for "lousy lossy" formats.

I understand that they'll probably never offer lossless formats, because of the storage and delivery burden it would impose, and the fact that most people don't know the difference.  This really distresses me.

[JimH]

At this point, we have little to say about exactly what is offered, but I expect that lossless and Hi Definition formats will be offered some day.  Bandwidth issues tend to go away over time.

[hit_ny]

When you deal with these companies, please make them understand that lossy formats are simply not acceptable in an online store.

Thank you for saying that.  I was thinking the exact same thing.  I am interested in digital music delivery, but I utterly detest reduced-quality formats, no matter how enthusiastically they are marketed or raved about by users.

It's bad enough that the sound quality you sometimes get when you buy CDs is slipping; I don't need to have double the audio detriment by paying for "lousy lossy" formats.

I understand that they'll probably never offer lossless formats, because of the storage and delivery burden it would impose, and the fact that most people don't know the difference.  This really distresses me.

I'm curious to know what genres of music you both listen to ?

[soren]

I listen to almost everything (although american mainstream r&b makes me sick). From classical and jazz to speedmetal (goes in phases).

And yes I have no problems hearing lossy from lossless encoded material. I have very revealing equipment at home, and once you hear the difference you know what to look for and you hear it even if you don't want to!

/Sören

[m26]

I'm curious to know what genres of music you both listen to ?

I listen to alternative rock much of the time, but also classical music.  No matter what I am listening to, I want it sounding good, without that garbled, under-water sound I get with even 192-kbps MP3 files.  (I know you were only asking about the genre...   )

[Mastiff]

Either you're insanely critical, or you haven't heard Lame VBR audiophile settings. That is good enough for me, and if you look at my HT (on my homepage) you will see that I spend good money on good picture and sound.

[soren]

I do have a lot of MP3s in my collection so I am not overly critical.
I hear the difference almost all the time (any rates or codec).. soundstage change, airness dissapears etc.
Sure I could probably live with mp3s but why? .. it's like going back to the tapedecks back in the 80s. Things should be moving forward not backwards. And considering how bad the cd itself is compared to dvd-audio or sacd it's even worse.

I see the (very near actually) future as follows:

All record companies join together to create a huge archive of all their master tapes converted into hidef audio on internet servers.

Music stores no longer have any stock cds, just a burner(s) and a cover art printer. Maybe some listening stations if some poor customer don't have a computer at home (maybe mobile phones have the bandwidth to sample songs that way by then?).

Customers can choose to download themselves or pay for that service at the local music store.

I see no future what so ever for the record companies to survive otherwise... they have to embrace the internet age or go out of business. But considering how the m..ons think today, we will probably see one or two going down the drain.

These archives will benefit everyone (maybe not the cd manufacturers) ... all music becomes available at any place on earth, smaller record companies can "hire" room in the archives and get a much wider audience etc..  I think you get the point.



/Sören

[cryst]

Either you're insanely critical, or you haven't heard Lame VBR audiophile settings. That is good enough for me, and if you look at my HT (on my homepage) you will see that I spend good money on good picture and sound.

No one is talking about LAME with audiophile settings.  Do any music services use that high a quality?

[hit_ny]

I listen to almost everything (although american mainstream r&b makes me sick). From classical and jazz to speedmetal (goes in phases).

I listen to alternative rock much of the time, but also classical music.  

Classical, rock, jazz !! For some reason these genres dont compress so well. I'm not sure if the reason is  the heavy percussion, lots of harmonics or richness of the music.

But otherwise i would agree, APE is probably the best way to go with these.

[geekbeats2]

whenever i hear an audiophile go on some rant about how poorly compressed music sounds, how his cds are the vinyl of the 70's and how trained his ear is i cringe. it seems to me that audiophiles are more concerned with how their equipment performs than they are of the actual music. I can listen to a scratched up record, a cd or a mp3 ripped at 128 and get the same response that if were listening to a live personal performance of bach himself. after all whats important in music is identifying the articualtion of notes, the melodies and the many other things that are harder to explain. I dont need the complete lack of hiss to distinguish between d major and d minor

[rocketsauce]

No one is talking about LAME with audiophile settings.  Do any music services use that high a quality?

EMusic uses LAME alt-preset standard.

Rob

[soren]

geekbeats2,

I get that feeling myself sometimes .. that I listen more to my equipment then the music.
But listening to a very good recording on high end equipment is a very nice experience.
Unfortunatly the producers today go insane with compressors etc and totally ruins the recordings .. I would sue if I was an artist, and they violated my creations that way.

Today I listened to a fantastic album.. well I listen to it alot actually.

Sara K. - Water falls higly recommended .. even in lossy format


/Sören

[JeffB]

 Bandwidth issues tend to go away over time.

There is always a use for more bandwidth.  When downloading current high quality audio becomes quick and easy people will want more bandwidth to download even higher quality audio.  I'm one of them.

It's the same reason many people didn't warm up to digital audio in the begining.  It can't match the full sound of analog so higher bit rates will always be desirable.

[xen-uno]

> It's the same reason many people didn't warm up to digital audio in the begining.  It can't match the full sound of analog so higher bit rates will always be desirable

Many didn't because they look at the specs on their TT's stylus (10Hz to to at least 30 kHz). Meanwhile they saw the CD-DA specs (20Hz to 20kHz) and thought CD & Digital Audio in general was inferior. It isn't. I won't argue that vinyl sounds different than digital (like warmer), but there is physical reasons for this (such as mass/inertia of a vibrating stylus/stylus arm...mastering compromises for the record pressing). Not one of these "audiophiles" could hear past 19 kHz or so (the lucky ones...a litttle over 20 kHz), and none of them had records with any real content at such high freq's. You ought to ABX a high quality/bitrate lossy file against the original...odds are you can't tell them apart (lossy encoders are that good nowadays).

Music services would be handy for filling in holes in your collection...you know...those one hit wonders where a particular album is forgetable, but they do have one that stands out...or the CD is no longer in print. You probably won't see lossless without DRM for mainstream artists, so again, music services are of limited use.

R_x

[cryst]

whenever i hear an audiophile go on some rant about how poorly compressed music sounds, how his cds are the vinyl of the 70's and how trained his ear is i cringe.

i see no one bragging in this thread, much less claiming to be an "audiophile".  some people just don't like listening to music that sounds like it was underwater.  i am generally happy with 256-kbps or higher LAME MP3s, but nothing less.  and forget about 128-kbps ANYTHING.

[Charlemagne 8]

No one is talking about LAME with audiophile settings.  Do any music services use that high a quality?

Yes they do! There is one that offers almost everything up to 384 KBPS (your choice - you pay by file size) and a growing selection of APE and similar lossless formats.

However, the legality of this particular service is in question so I won't say who they are.

The point is, this is a wonderful model in that the customer gets to choose the format, thereby satisfying whatever condition your ears and your wallet are in. If the mainstream (and definitely legal) providers started offering this same scenario, I think they would be on to a workable on-line music service. Paying by track and not by song/file length is definitely a dead end.

CVIII

[scott_r]

Slightly off-topic, but these are my general feelings about online music services and drm...

I live in New Zealand, where we have just experienced a massive change in the way CDs are sold. Most CDs sold over here are now copy controlled, which means I can't play them on my current equipment (PC piped to home theatre system).
I used to download MP3's off Napster, Kazaa, etc... but that was when I was younger, and it was the "cool" thing to do.
Now that I've reached a point in my life where I want to (and can afford to) actually buy music, I'm finding that I can't, because the CDs that I want are copy controlled and therefore unplayable on my system.
I want to pay for music. However, when I pay for music I expect CD quality audio, not 96kHz WMA  files that I can only play through a proprietary player that comes on the CD.
I'm all for DRM, but not when it de-values the product for me. If I can get lossless compressed audio on MC, with a bit of DRM to stop me giving it to all my mates, then I'm fine with that. But if it means I can't copy it to a hand held player that I may or may not own in the future, or if I can't make backups of it on CD then I'd be annoyed.
It would also have to be cheaper than going out and getting a CD, although I'd still expect to pay a price that's fair for all parties. In New Zealand CD's are around NZ$34.95 for new releases, and generally range from $24.95 to $34.95, for a popular single disc package. Not sure how that compares internationally.
Anyway, if MC wants to integrate a music store, I'm all for it. It just better not be limited to 96kbit WMA's...

Scott.

[PhatPhreddy]

Charlemange, I assume you are talking about http://www.[web site removed].com (though I had not picked up on it offering APE or lossless encoding) the issue has been beaten to death multiple times over on AVS and it has clearly been shown to be legal.  The audio is subject to the same laws as all russian CD's and to say it is not legal would be implying that every CD sold in every russian store is illegal, something clearly rediculous.  It has been pointed out the RIAA is well aware of allofMP3.com and is unable to close the site and is afraid of publicising it by a high profile lawsuit.

Now the fact that russia does not compensate artists or operate the same copyright laws as the usa brings up a moral question and implication but not a legal one.  If the concience issue is troubling how about simply donating to the artist directly (they would see a much higher % than via a CD sale) or purchasing a T shirt etc via thier webstore or fan site.  All of these go to reward the artist directly rather than the industry.

All that aside they provide precisely the service that many people want, high bitrate, encoded on demand to your settings, lossless, pay by MB, etc.  If they were to make a commitment (or even an option) to 'donate' say 2 or 3 USD per album direct to the artist themselves it could be the 'perfect' solution.  Artists rewarded, users happy, middlemen cut out.

[enigman]

I've just started using this service, and have been downloading tracks at 384KBPs, since this seems like the native format that most CDs were ripped to, and I didn't want to take any quality hit from a re-encode.  

However, I can't seem to play these tracks with Media Jukebox (v.  Anyone have any suggestions for getting them to play?  Is there a plugin or a newer version (Media Center perhaps) that will play these files?

Thanks!

[Charlemagne 8]

enigman,
Unfortunately, there are very few players that will play 384 K and Media Center is not one of them. Zinf is the only one that I know of that will but it lacks the features of Media Center. I'm sure there are others that will but are equally spartan.
Although 384 is exceptionally high quality, it is still lossy. The "native" format for CDs tranlates to wav. (It actually isn't wav but has it's own format --- cda. Someone that knows precisely the mechanism for encoding cda's as opposed to wav's may correct me but that's OK --- then I'll know, too.) If you want lossless, which is what the source CD is, you must use ape or WMA lossless. You'll end up paying an average of $7 or $8 for a full album. The next compatable format down is 320 Kbps. Media Center WILL play those. The average price for an album would drop to around $3.


==================================================

Yes PhPh,

That's who I mean. I've heard all of the arguments for and against AOMp3's legality and I'm not convinced. I have reasons that would be inappropriate to go into here. The issue I brought up was not one of legality in the outside world but of the appropriateness of discussing it in this forum. It is clearly frowned upon --- or has been in the recent past.

I merely meant to show that a workable sales model does exist and the RIAA sanctioned companies that either do or will provide on-line content would do well to emulate it.

I don't have much hope, though. Their performance has been mostly Reactive instead of Proactive.

Dancing carefully,
CVIII

[enigman]

Well, I've found a solution to the 384K issue -

CVIII, you are correct, there are precious few players that support this format natively - Winamp will do it with the MAD plugin, and there are a few others too, but definitely not MC.  

The bulk of the [web site removed] library is encoded at 384 KBPS (who knows why they picked this), so I can't download songs most of these songs as lossless.  I'd also rather avoid having to transcode lossy to lossy (384 KBPS to 320 K) and suffer an additional lossy step to get a compatible format.  What I've been doing is to download the 384 KBPs versions of albums and then transcode them to APE, which is the format I've been using for the rest of my collection.  Sure, it's not lossless in the sense that it's already hit a lossy step during the first conversion, but it's at least lossless from the "original" ripped file, which is as good as I'm going to get.

I've been using FRONTAH -  http://home.vxu.se/mdati00/frontah/ - to automatically convert whole directory structures worth of these files to APE - it even maintains the tags - make sure you've got Monkey Audio installed, as well as LAME (it's one of the few progs that can handle the goofy 384 bitrate).  Just make sure you follow the frontah "Guide" to script editing, because out of the box it doesn't work with APE the way it should - you need to force it to dump to a WAV file first - there's a detailed description of how to do it for APE here:
http://home.vxu.se/mdati00/frontah/manual-scriptguide.html#macnopipes

Anyway, I hope this is of some help to anyone out there trying to figure out how to best use this service with Media Center.  The additional transcode step is a little annoying, but it's well worth it!  The service rocks.

--Tim

[Charlemagne 8]

I assume that they chose 384k because that is the closest mp3 there is to lossless.
The Lossless library is growing so maybe there will be more options later. They (Media Services a.k.a. AllofMP3) started out small and have been growing at a rate slightly faster than they can keep up with. They are striving to increase their library, increase their bandwidth and increase their server capacity at the same time increasing their subscriber base. The latter is outpacing the formers.

THAT is why I hope that RIAA is not only eyeing them with the idea of shutting them down (they would if they could and will if they can -- I seriously doubt that they've given up) but is also catching on to this sales strategy.

AOMP3 is growing at the rate it does with no advertising except for word-of-mouth. That means a practical, workable and consumer friendly business model.

Please, RIAA, pay attention.

CVIII

[zevele10]

I do not see how a crapy corporate from usa can shut down a service in Russia  if this service  is legal there.

There is more than us rules all other the word.

They cannot monitor who is using this site ever.
Cause they server is not in usa.

They are doing big with they new online way [all formats including losslees].
They catalogue will grow fast cause they spend a very large part of the money done on new cds.

I know it first hand.

Now , if your riaa wants this to be close down , you have to know that Putin himself would be involve in this .

Not by love of music but because this kind of services are see by russian authoritys as the future main source of income in foreing money.
no less.

[JimH]

Zev,
Have you heard about the Cruise missile that converts an IP address into latitude and longitude in real time?  I think some of the technology was developed in Israel.

Jim

[Deivit]

Zev,
Have you heard about the Cruise missile that converts an IP address into latitude and longitude in real time?  I think some of the technology was developed in Israel.

Jim

Oh my goodness!!

[zevele10]

Yes I heard about.
Because of it i changed from cable connection to ADSL dial up one.

You do not realize what $$ , english pounds ect mean in Russia.

My friend has a cousin in Saint Petesbourg.
She is retired- She was a well know cantatrice [?] at the opera.

From time to time we send her $50.

It is 3 months income to her.

So for Russia ,it is a clean and easy way to get foreing money.

I spoke to one of the guy from  the site not long ago.

And if next week you are able to offer same service as they do-- legal of cause- i can tell you that you may see $$$ coming stronger that a dogs and cats rain.

There is quite a few bands from here who are on it.
So i would be able to tell you if they get some money ,one day.

[Charlemagne 8]

I never said they would or could shut them down. That will never stop them from WANTING to.

I know that from the Russian side, it IS legal and it very well could be legal from the USA side but that won't make it legal for USA to USE the service. As long as RIAA is wisely (for once) keeping a low profile on it, it will stay out of the eye of the masses and won't be an issue.

It seems they actually DID learn something from Napster. I, along with some millions, never had heard of Napster until The Big Stink.

But think on this:
Russia needs the money. RIAA has SCADS of it. They wouldn't have to buy out the whole country, just the ones who make the decisions. Sounds kind of familiar ....

CVIII

[Charlemagne 8]

AND JimH,

As long as we're on the subject (or were), when you get time, see if you can find out how difficult it would be to bump the MP3 encoders and decoders to 384K.

CVIII

"It" uses LAME 3.91 MMX to encode to 384 Kbps.

[enigman]

I definitely don't think the RIAA has the legal muscle to shut down the service, and I doubt they'd be able to buy their way either - Russia is not as keen on foreign corporate influence as other countries - hell, the current government doesn't even seem to keen on domestic corporate influence these days.  

As far as legality in the US, the comparison to store-bought CDs is probably valid.  However, store-bought CDs - like online-bought MP3s - are subject to US customs restrictions when "imported" into the US.  I'm pretty sure customs prohibits the importation of material that violates __US Copyright__  Russia, as well as many other countries, has much more liberal intellectual property laws, including their public domain laws.  I think works lapse into public domain after 25 years.  Interestingly, this is very close to what the framers of the constitution wanted it to be in the US -  the original US copyright law was for 14 years, renewable once, for a total of 28 years, which is what it still should be, IMHO.  That perfectly public domain copy of Birth of the Cool that was perfectly legal where you bought it in Moscow can still be seized when you reach the US, because here it is not in the public domain and so would be considered a violation of US copyright.

So yes, the RIAA doesn't have any legal grounds to take down the site in Russia, but probably COULD try to coerce US ISPs to block it back home.  Given the recent battles between the RIAA and Verizon, I would imagine that it would be quite the uphill battle for them.  Knowing the sort of publicity it would give the site, I doubt they'd want to go there.  Honesty though, I'm surprised that Lawrence Lessing or one of the other big "CopyLeft" guys hasn't brought up this idea that in the world of globalized commerce and digitalized intellectual property, it has really become possible to "choose your own copyright law" by giving your business to the country with the copyright laws that most closely match your own values.  Think US copyright laws are too strict and favor the copyright holder over public interest and the consumer?  Then do business in Russia!  It makes for an interesting legal, ethical, political, and economic argument.

That said, I'm certain that if the RIAA really wanted to shut down the site, they wouldn't necessarily need to resort to legal means.  They've got much greater resources, and I'm sure they could take down the site with just the press of a button -  and probably keep it down indefinitely.  From what I've seen the servers are about ready to collapse under their own weight already...

Re: 384 Kbps, Lame and MAD are the only two decoding engines that I know of that can handle freeformat MP3s (and I think they are both based on the same original codebase)  Luckily they are both open source, so I'm sure someone could relatively easily write a MAD plugin for MC.  I myself am pretty happy with the transcoding solution I came up with (see my earlier post).  I've got plenty of free space, and the APE files are much more compatible than those silly 384 Kbps MP3s.

Peace.

--Tim

[rocketsauce]

If the concience issue is troubling how about simply donating to the artist directly

http://www.musiclink.com/

[Charlemagne 8]

Good idea RS. However, I've never heard of or listened to ANY of the listed artists.

CVIII

[Jazzwolf]

I do not see how a crapy corporate from usa can shut down a service in Russia  if this service  is legal there.

There is more than us rules all other the word.

They cannot monitor who is using this site ever.
Cause they server is not in usa.

They are doing big with they new online way [all formats including losslees].
They catalogue will grow fast cause they spend a very large part of the money done on new cds.

I know it first hand.

Now , if your riaa wants this to be close down , you have to know that Putin himself would be involve in this .

Not by love of music but because this kind of services are see by russian authoritys as the future main source of income in foreing money.
no less.

I got to admit that I love that site as sometimes you can find some obscure stuff in there.. BUT it doesn't beat vinyl! There is nothing like hearing a fresh clean LP. I've been buying a lot of LP's on Ebay as I had a major flood in my basement that ruined a few hundred records several years ago. When I get a clean LP there is a heck of a thrill in playing it. I am not an audiophile but believe me when I tell you that there is a lot of stuff that sounds better on vinyl than on CD.  

[Charlemagne 8]

You're "preaching to the choir" when you talk to Zev about the wonders of vinyl. He would rather it be in mono.

CVIII

[zevele10]

vinyl???

Until now , never heard the word.

Look at it if you have some change in your pockets.

http://www.elpj.com/

I'am digital right now.
I rip all my various artists psy/garage 60's.
Don't ask- Must be around 2 meters on the shelves.....

After that i will get all the ones i do not have from friends.
Last steep is to rip the LPs not on Cd.

After that , i will make custom cds.
All the Kinks covers , Stones , Yarbirds ect ect.

Concerning Yardbirds i may be able to make ONE song covers full cd.

Hudge task , but i do well.

RealOne saves my life concerning cd infos i have to say.

The Russians are cool.

Like i got few Little Feat albums to put on a MP3 cd.

Was much less a PITA than rip the LPs.

And YES Vinyl sounds much better than most of the cds.

But , i got the 16 cds Rolling Stones box set.

Remastered.

And , in this case i have to say that they sound better than LPs
Even the 180 grammes LPs.

Now , if they put out  the same box set on vynil, the lps would sound better.

Anyway  , when fast food is haute cuisine , rap is  culture , plastic pc speakers hight fi, playlist  the taste of the day , cd are still good stuff.



Listening to: 'Broken Dog / Will There Be Drinks?' from 'The Pot Machine Turns You On -- POT 29' by 'VA Terrascope 29' on Media Center 9.1

[Jazzwolf]

>>And YES Vinyl sounds much better than most of the cds.<<

Yep, it sounds much warmer. Yes the clicks and pops can get to you BUT when it is a clean LP: Watch Out!
I still prefer to hear Jethro Tull's Aqualung on vinyl. I have 2 cd's the 1st released CD (what a disaster that was!) and the 25th anniversary remastered cd and I still prefer to put on my old Reprise LP  

[rocketsauce]

Good idea RS. However, I've never heard of or listened to ANY of the listed artists.

CVIII

from the musiclink faq:

What if my artist is not on the list or in the database?

We are currently constructing a new page on our site to handle this issue. For the mean time, please submit us an email with the artists name and information (send to contact@musiclink.com). If you have any information such as email, town, state, type of band or record label, please submit this as well. Our team will attempt to track your artist down. If your artist can not be found or refuses your payment, the funds will be distributed evenly to the registered artists in the music genre of your choice. The default pick is always the same genre for the artist you originally wanted to contribute too.

Rob

[Charlemagne 8]

I'm thinking seriously about going back to cassette in my truck --- cassettes NEVER skip. Maybe an MP3 player -- the flash-drive type -- no moving parts. I suppose THAT wouldn't skip.
The main problem I have with vinyl is that I can't dampen the turntable vibrations at the volume I like to listen to. I've even tried putting it in another room, suspending it from the ceiling, super "anti-vibration" padding underneath -- the arm still dances across the record when the bass kicks in. Headphones? --- I hate 'em. Before CD's, I would record the vinyl on to cassettes (before that it was reel-to-reel - at 7½ ips, it seemed to sound BETTER than the record) and I could listen as loud as I wanted.

CVIII

[tombo77]

AllofMp3 is a great way to get some music. Better than P2P and the cost is pretty minimal.

Oh and CD is better than vinyl in one very important way.  dynamic range. vinyl has about 60db of dynamic range to CDs >90db. How does that translate to todyas music? Not much as  the music is mastered for LOUDNESS and squeezes all the dynamic range out of the song in favor of compressed loudness. The original tape medium is what gives vinyl the warmth, not the playback medium! Jethro Tull will sound just as "warm" on CD as he original vinyl as it was recorded and mastered to naturally compressing tape.  

So the only music that really takes advantage of CD is music with great range from soft to loud like symphonic and acts like Norah Jones and John Mayer. Anything dense and loud may as well be on vinyl. Onlt the very few "wannbe esoteric audiophiles" would want that.

I  dug out  450  circa 1960-85  pristine plastic sleeved vinyl albums and cherry picked songs and began transfering  them via Dart Pro to CD, and to Mp3. I quit after about three albums.  I still cannot stomach the inherant noise and "static" on vinyl even after "cleaning them up"  I ended up finding many on used  CDs here and there ,ripped them and sold the vinyl to a used record shop.

You want warmth? just remaster  your CD music through a tube compressor at a 5:1 ratio. You will have the vinyl sound without the issues (and the dynamic range). This works well for those vintage rock and roll CDs even though  the original tapped masters are really what delivers the "warmth" many speak of NOT the needle and grooves.

Early  digital recordings  from track to CD are responsible for any lack of warmth many seem to notice today even though now  there are excellent DSP plug ins that can and do warm up the sound to make it sound  as warm as vinyl and still retain the dynamic range. But alas the mastering engineer squezzes the crap out of the final mix so its just loud anyway.

Then on tp of that FM radio extremily compresses the signal again so by the time it's heard on the radio its flat and lifeless...................kinda like vinyl.