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[DocLotus]

Hi Madcow;

I agree with you totally.

MC is, & always has been a player for the Nerd, computer geek or power user, but not for the casual user that only wants to listen to some music without having to first go through a steep learning curve.

EXAMPLE: My first try at MJ was 7.1 (I think it was).  I basically liked it but was totally overwhelmed so I went back to RealPlayer / RealOne / Siren which were all very easy to use right out of the box (more simple & much faster to set up & get playing).  Plus, there was not an endless string of bug fixes.  Once RealPlayer, RealOne, or Siren was introduced, it would be at least two years before any updates became available.  The bottom line is that the user did not have to constantly worry about fixes or, do I have the latest version.

Microsoft is the same way with Windows Media Player... once you get it, that's usually it for a year or two.

Yes, MC can be pretty intimidating to the new user.

As far as endless bug fixes go, I only hope they can keep it up as 9.1 was less then great in my humble opnion.

We've all heard it before that "Microsoft Win 98 was the program that Win 95 should have been" & that "Win XP is the program that Win ME should have been".  Well, MC 10 is the program that MC 9.1 should have been (in my mind).

MC 10 is a wonderful product, feature rich & seems to be very stable.  Just the kind of product that a power user (or Nerd or Geek) like myself likes.

The only problem I have had about the high price is that I was told when I bought MC 9 that the registration would also cover MC 10... it did not as JRiver changed the upgrade rules after MC 10 was in development.  I did not say anything about this at the time but it did irritate me more then a little in light of the closeness of the timing between MC 9 & MC 10.  Yes, it was only $10 (at that time) but I was previously told that MC 10 would be a free upgrade.

Yes, there are some free media players out there but you get what you pay for.  Many media players are not really free. Many have a "free" version but will try to get you to upgrade (at a price) or buy one or more of their services such as Real Networks players.

Yes, MC is a lot harder to get used to then other players.  But, isn't it wonderful when you stumble across features you never knew were there, or find a new way to achieve something, or discover that yes, there is a way to do that.  None of the many other players that I have used could do that as they were more simple in design & use... in other words they were designed for the casual user & not the power user like us.

I was always looking for a more flexible player then ones such RealPlayer, RealOne, or Siren.  When I tried MJ 8 I was hooked.

Can MC be more simplified for the casual user, defiantly yes, if JRiver wants to.

There have been many threads on this subject in the past.  Some users, such as myself, would like it if MC had a Basic, Normal, & Advanced mode of setup to make MC more friendly to all users.  A new user would start in Basic mode & move up the ladder as he/she gained experience with MC.  This is a great way to learn a product without becoming overwhelmed (and turned off as I was with 7.1).

I believe one of the best examples of software that is usable by both the novice & the power user alike is ACDSee.  It can be made to look very complex or extremely simple.

The product that really put ACDSee on the map was the very popular version 2.1 (a very long time ago).  They are now up to v 6 yet it can be made to look like 2.1 which they call the Classic view.  ACDSee allows the user to change every aspect of the layout including where you want all the screens to appear (left, right, top, bottom, etc.).  Any element can be turned on or off & placed in any location.  This allows you to really make ACDSee "yours" as you customize it to your liking.

ACDSee uses a Tools / Customize Layout screen with Four tabs (Panel, Toolbars, Viewer, & Window Layout) with many items on each tab to make all the changes to how ACDSee looks; very slick indeed.

I would LOVE to see MC have the Tools / Customize Layout screen feature.  It would put the "icing on the cake" so to speak.

I agree with you, there is no turning back.  After trying a lot of media players over the years (including earlier versions of MJ) I see no reason to look elsewhere.  Now, if the whole world only knew that.

How do you sell something to people who don't even know they need it?  That's really a tough one.  I don't know if JRiver has a full time marketing team or not (Jim H is that you?).  I do know that MC is not "out there" as much as other media players.  I don't see references to it nearly as much as others.  Maybe a full time marketing team is in order to really get the message out there.

By the way Madcow, WHERE did you get that name ?

[Rob L]

Sorry, but I really don't agree with you on SO many of those points.

Firstly, I think it's totally unfair to say that MC has a far steeper learning curve or is more difficult to just get working than the other players you mention. What do you think actually makes it so difficult? Certainly, switching it into the mini me mode it doesn't actually look much different than a lot of the other players. Even in normal mode, it's got big clear buttons for all the normal functionality. And the actual layout is pretty similar to how RealJukebox was.

I HATE MusicMatch, and I've never found it easy to use. Pretty much the same goes for RealOne, which was a big step backwards as far as I'm concerned. By default, they don't even have an interface for showing you your music for god's sake!

Outside of MC, I'd say that Winamp wins, because it really is simple - but then it doesn't do much either. OK, it does a bit more with more recent versions, but even so.

I agree with Madcow on the point about iTunes though - it probably *is* the best software that's free to get you ripping CDs and managing your music. Of course they manage that by having it all tied into the purchasing of music.

The statement about Windows Media Player made me laugh. Do you really think it's not updated very often? Have you actually looked through all the updates that have been available for it? And a large number of those were to fix actual *vulnerabilities* - things that could allow people to destroy your PC. It's true on the other hand that Microsoft rarely update the *functionality* of Media Player, but that's mostly because there isn't very much.

I've been using MC/MJ since version 7, too. And I'm really *glad* for all the updates there have been. Most of them haven't been to fix any big bugs - I really can't remember a time when I've fallen foul of anything that caused me a problem in MC, and I've used pretty much every point release.

It's annoying, frankly, for people to complain about the number of updates; JRiver have a really *good* policy of high visibility of the work they're doing. They could take a totally different approach and keep their updates out of the public eye - that's what most software houses do after all - but I for one and really pleased to be included in the process, and I'm sure that's what has lead to the following it's got. But I've never HAD to worry about fixes or whether I have the latest version, and I know people that use Media Center and don't bother applying updates at all. It's my choice.

9.1 vs 10? I could pretty much take it or leave it. There are certainly some nice things that have been introduced in 10 and I'm pleased to have them and wouldn't want to go back now,  but I was very happy with 9.1. It still worked TONS better than Musicmatch.

I don't really consider myself a power user, by the way. At least, I wasn't. There are loads of things in MC I hadn't touched until fairly recently. I actually think it's pretty easy to use the basic functionality of MC and ignore (or even be totally unaware of) the more complicated stuff - a comment that people make so often on here. That can only be a good sign, if you ask me.

[DocLotus]

Hi Rob;

I was afraid this was going to happen.  I think we are confusing Mini Me with full-screen functionally.  I seldom use Mini Me as it is too simple for my taste, but that is just my cup of tea.

What I think that Madcow & myself are talking about is a general ease of use (in the full-screen mode) when compared to other players.  If you like Mini Me, then fine, by all means use it.

Thru, most of the other players can not hold a candle to MC when it comes to real power; that is why we experienced users really like MC, for it's power.  But, that's not what we are talking about.

It has nothing to do with Mini Me, or the clarity of the buttons, or the general layout but rather a feeling that there are just so many features, & so many menu items that the new user often feels lost.  This is especially true when switching from another player to MC for the first time.  There are many threads on this topic so I'm not entirely alone when I say that MC can be simplified for the new or novice user.

After using a program such as ACDSee I realized there is a better way to customize a program for all users; this currently does not exist in MC. This topic has been discussed many, many times before in other threads over the last year or so.  So again, looks like I'm not alone on this subject.

I totally agree with you about MusicMatch & some other players; seems like they are trying too hard to make a bold statement of some kind.  I really do not care for software that is more interested in being sexy then useful & MusicMatch was not very useful for me.

Yes, I agree with you about Windows Media Player being upgraded for security fixes but that is just Microsoft security vulnerabilities & as you said not much about real upgrades which I was referring to.

As I power user, I too am glad for all the MC updates & bug fixes.  Most or these are only seen by the Beta testers such as us; the casual user should seldom see them.  But what I was referring to was that over the four years that I used Reals players (including RealOne) I only saw two or three actual updates & few bug fixes.

One of the things that both Microsoft & Real have that MC does not have is Live Update where the user is notified automatically when an update is available.  Symantec, ACDSee, & others use this feature & it works very well.  You hardly are aware of the update & your program stays current automatically.

Programs can always be improved & we are only making some suggestions in that area based on our experience.  No two users are going to have exactly the same experience.  If you are completely satisfied with MC just the way it is then fine, so be it.

[edbro]

One of the things that both Microsoft & Real have that MC does not have is Live Update where the user is notified automatically when an update is available.  Symantec, ACDSee, & others use this feature & it works very well.  You hardly are aware of the update & your program stays current automatically.

Isn't this what we just voted down in beta .108?

[DocLotus]

Don't recall the vote

Was this a general vote open to all ?

[Omni]

Don't recall the vote

Was this a general vote open to all ?

It wasn't a vote, per se, just a strong community outcry against this feature.  (check out the thread for yourself)

The compromise was to have automatic updates enabled and on by default, but the user has the discretion of disabling it if he or she so desires.  

[DocLotus]

Thanks Omni

Boy, I really missed that one

[LonWar]

MC has a auto update??

10.0.111
Tools
Options
Under Actions, Check for updates every...... As long as you have the box checked, it will scan for updates.

[mkutsen]

I think that MC 10 is a huge improvement in both stability and ease of use over 9.0 and restores MC as the king of media players.  9.1 was somewhere in between.

I agree with DocLotus that there is still room for improvement in the ease of use category.

[Robert Taylor]

I gotta weigh in to this one!

I find that MC is perfectly easy to use for the casual user. I have exposed many of my (non computer geek) friends to it, and they find the basic functionality VERY easy to use. Of course, a short explanation of some of the functions from me is required to get em going, but that's about it.

When it comes to some of the more esoteric features, they either have no use for them, or ask me how to achieve a certain thing. Once a brief explanation is given, the usual response is "Wow! That's pretty easy", and they're off and running.

Many other people who have visited my place for social gatherings (where music is ALWAYS playing via MC client in the lounge), find it easy to use just to play music. (ie add tracks to Playing Now, change order of PN etc.), with only a brief explanation required.

I think anyone who finds MC hard to use is either lazy minded, or is a member of the animal kingdom.

Do you drive a car without learning to drive it first? No! These days, unfortunately, people seem to expect more and more to have access to things (technology, money or whatever) without expending any effort on their part.

I'm always happy to explain aspect of their PCs to my friends and family, and I pride myself on being able to explain stuff to them in a way that encourages them to learn more off their own bat. If they keep asking me the same questions over and over, it becomes obvious that they are not making any attempt to use their own brain to learn.

Any software (that has some complexity and richness of features), requires some effort to learn. If people choose not to bother to exercise their own brains, that's their loss.

My 2.2c worth (GST Included)

[Quisp]

I think anyone who finds MC hard to use is either lazy minded, or is a member of the animal kingdom.

I'm afraid I must disagree, I'm lazy minded and a member of the animal kingdom and I find MC very easy to use.

[JimH]

The only problem I have had about the high price is that I was told when I bought MC 9 that the registration would also cover MC 10... it did not as JRiver changed the upgrade rules after MC 10 was in development.  I did not say anything about this at the time but it did irritate me more then a little in light of the closeness of the timing between MC 9 & MC 10.  

Doc, I don't think we ever made that promise.  We're pretty careful about saying things like that (unless we mean them).

And yes, we have a full time marketing team.  He is Peter Sohal, VP of Marketing at JRiver.  He is presently in England for a family funeral.  Peter has been a vital force in the success of MC.  We owe him a big debt of gratitude.  And he's a pretty fair ice fisherman.

[DocLotus]

Hi LunchmeatVoom;

Interesting comments; thanks.

Yes, it is very easy to use once it is set up, even the casual user will usually have little trouble playing music that is already there & set up.  In fact, most players that are already set up are fairly easy to play music on.

Yes, it is nice to have an experienced user at your side to get you up & running.  This will save literally hours (& in some cases days) of time scouring through endless help screens.

Over the years I have seen situations in areas, computer & non computer alike, where someone will spend hours & in some case days trying to figure out how to do something only to have a total stranger walk & in 1 - 5 minutes tell them how to make it work.  It has happened to me on several occasions, it has happened to almost everyone.  Sometimes we are the user, sometimes we are the explainer.  I think we have all been there at one time or another.

EXAMPLE: Most of us have had problems with Windows at one time or another that took us days to figure out & 10 seconds to fix, that is, once we know how.  I have seen Windows problems that no Web site was able to help with.  Sometimes the problem goes unresolved for months until one day you read an article in a magazine that like magic resolves the big problem.

Having the answer to all of your questions at your side in the form of an experienced user is not the same as being able to quickly figure out on your own how to make a certain function work correctly.

It is not that MC is hard to use, in fact it is pretty easy to use, once it is set up & you have an understanding of the general layout & have a little experience using it.  Getting to that point is what is in question.

And, it is not about being lazy.

True, most all software requires some effort on the part of the user to gain knowledge & experience to become proficient in that software.  How much effort that is required is the question.

I have seen similar software by two or three different companies & it seems that one usually stands out above the rest in the ease of getting up & running area.

It is not that MC is hard to learn, it is that there is always a better, easier way to do things.  MC could use a little "tweeking" to make it more user friendly to the new user that does not have anyone at their side to hold their hand during the learning process.

I gave MC to a fairly computer savvy friend (been using computers since 1982) & told him to install it, then use it & if he had any questions to call me.  I then let him to it & left.

A month later... yes he got it running but he knew almost nothing about what he could do with it other then play the music that was automatically imported.  He could of used any player for that.  It took me a couple of hours explaining what this & that did.

Sooo... lacking personal hand holding by an experienced user, MC should possibly have a Basic setup for new users to help them get started with a little more confidence.

This is to help shield the new user from the complexities of MC that can sometimes overwhelm a new user.

[Richard Berg]

I don't see why it's invalid to compare Mini Me to other minimalist players.  That's what it's there for.  Why ask them to pare down or hide the Mega-Me feature set when a simple button click (or ctrl-e) will hide them for you?

Listen, I'm very new to MC10.  There were some things it took me awhile to figure out.  But they were MC10-specific things -- general jukebox functions were not just intuitive, but drew on common knowledge from this genre of software.  What did you or your friends have trouble with, exactly?

I was an early beta tester for foobar2k.  If you want an unintuitive interface, that's the place to start complaining.  I appreciate the way they reject skins in favor of standard widgets, but it breaks just about every other conventional usage paradigm out there.  Not to mention leaving all of the search parameters, keyboard shortcuts, and so on completely undocumented....unprofessional, really.  And in the end, not really more powerful than MC10.

[Robert Taylor]

Doc,

Your comments about your friend illustrate what I meant by "lazy minded". I maybe used too harsh a term to describe what I meant.

You see, if someone gave me some software to use, and I played with it for a month, I would have discovered a lot of its nuances by messing around with it. I may have broken it a few times, and then spent time fixing it, or had to ask for help a couple of times, but I would've learnt a helluva lot in the process.

What I was getting at was that there are a significant number of people out there who expect the software to magically do everything for them, without putting in any effort themselves.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people use PCs who are completely oblivious to the magic F1 key. I know that reading online help is not as good as having an experienced user at your side, but you can learn a lot from it as well.

Maybe all that MC needs is a couple of "Wizards" for specific areas which can be identified by analysing common questions posted here on the forums, or maybe we (the community) should create some self-help video assistance (ie short MPG screen movies) showing common functions. If I had more time myself, I would do this (maybe I'll try to anyway).

How about the ability to set the Start Page to a custom one for new users, which has a list of the most common gotchas and how to set it up?

Either way, the product can only get better, and it still shits all over the competition in my opinion.

All this discussion is always a good thing...

[Sauzee]

What I was getting at was that there are a significant number of people out there who expect the software to magically do everything for them, without putting in any effort themselves.

This is what we ALL expect when we buy products, e.g. TV's, Freezers....

And it is why most PC software will never become mass market.

[DocLotus]

Hi guys;

Isn't this a wonderful discussion ?

Back in the late eighties, I & some other computer "power user" friends of mine were at a HAL PC users group (Houston Area League of PC... the largest PC users group in the world). The keynote speaker was Peter Norton of Norton Utilities fame.

Peter had some extremely interesting comments that none of use has ever forgotten.  He talked about how software will never be truly useful to the masses until it can become as easy to use as a common telephone or a refrigerator. He said that we do not have to know how a telephone works to use it... you just pick it up & use it.  The same goes for the refrigerator & TV set, any kid can use them.  Once you learn how to drive a car you do not have to relearn again for each new car you buy... so why should you have to relearn each new piece of software?

He also said that the family car may be closer in complexity to the computer but you do not have to know how it works to drive one... with a little safety training anyone can drive it.  Kids on farms have been driving tractors & cars for almost a hundred years with very little training.  In other words, we don't have to know the details of the electrical system or of the engine to start & drive a car... you just insert the key & start the engine.  Cars today have more computer power then what is setting on our desks yet that power is hidden from us, we see only the results.

It has taken the auto industry many years to implement so many computers into cars; there were a few false starts, but today it all works remarkable easy & reliably.

Oh, my "lazy minded" friend is not really lazy, he is a professional engineer that is extremely busy like so many people are today & has very little time to spend "messing around".  In the early days (1981- 85) he was very involved in our computer users group & was a board member, as was I, so I know he is defiantly not lazy.  Due to his very busy schedule, a computer has to be like the family car... you get into it & drive it.  If software has a high learning curve & it does little or nothing to help in his business, he often will never learn anything more then the raw basics as he simply does not have the time to "mess around".

There are millions of people out there that are so busy just trying to run their daily lives that they simply do not have the discretionary time that we geeks, nerds, & power users have.  Couple that with the virtual flood of new software, bug fixes, & upgrades & it is enough to drive many people to say "If it isn't broken I'm not going to upgrade" or "My old software works good enough & I don't have time to learn a whole new program from scratch".  Most of my early day's computer power user friends are in the same boat now, they seldom upgrade due to being so busy just trying to earn a living & they seldom upgrade because they simply "do not have the time".  Oh, they are still using Office 97 as it is "good enough".

I do like the idea of Wizards, Mpeg movies, & Common Problems Start page.  This sounds good & would certainly help the very busy person to get up & running faster without personal hand holding.

So many people are so busy today that I heard on NPR news the other morning an interesting comment for computer power users, geeks, & nerds... "What to tell your friends when they try to get you to help them with their computer problems & how to get out of it".

Remember, to most people a computer is just a tool, like a typewriter... it has to work very easily or it won't get used.

It's a very busy world out there & software can ALWAYS be easier to use.

[Madcow]

Exactly.  The users of this board are not exactly typical of the average computer user out there.  The fact that we participate in technical discussions, download daily builds, enjoy trying out new features that may or may not work and cheerfully tolerate features that don't work properly and even the occasional FUBAR build - and don't get me wrong, I genuinely love all this stuff - makes us entirely unlike the average user, who seems to resent large downloads, wants stuff to "just work", rarely applies critical security patches let alone minor version upgrades, and will give up on a piece of software the very first time he or she finds it to be counter-intuitive, over-complex or not working properly.

Likewise, the J River developers, like all developers, are far too close to the product to make reasonable decisions about ease of use.  They're so used to things working in a particular way that they won't perceive it in the way that a new, fresh user might... especially someone with substantially less PC knowledge than them.

That's why I have been encouraged by the various cryptic comments JimH and others have been making about "big developments" and "important partners".  In particular, it's seemed to me that a lot of the bug-fixing of recent weeks has been driven by these mysterious partners - I think Jim said as much in at least one post and it's been the first time for a while that multiple bugs are being fixed without first being reported through Interact.  Although I don't much care about the new direction for MC (I can't see it being anything other than a music/media store, and I have no interest in buying music online), the fact that a new set of people are involved with MC, who are neither J River employees nor MC's usual enthusiastic but geeky user base, seems to be a positive development.  The stability and robust nature of MC10 (especially compared to the bugged and rather abrupt release of 9.1) would already appear to be paying tribute to this.

[GRAYDOG]

Hey Guys, being a carpenter  for 25 years I do not consider Myself a nerd or power user by any means ,Having said that I do not find  MC to have a big learning curve or being that hard to use in anyway . there are somthings that take alittle time but  I think that is with just about everything . If you just want it to play Your music it is very basic  if you want it to do more You  need to put  a little efort in ,but that stuf is custom  and that makes MC the  best media player out there .(I love this forum)

[groovedaddy]

This discussion seems vaguely reminiscent of others that have been launched previously. I guess I would agree the MC can be more for the high end user - those who want to organize their music and other media, want to sync with their handhelds...well what I dig about MC is the fact that I can do so much with it.

I've encouraged my wife to use WMP because it simply plays what she wants it to play. She can create playlists and rate her songs and that's about the extent of it.

He talked about how software will never be truly useful to the masses until it can become as easy to use as a common telephone or a refrigerator. He said that we do not have to know how a telephone works to use it... you just pick it up & use it.  The same goes for the refrigerator & TV set, any kid can use them.  Once you learn how to drive a car you do not have to relearn again for each new car you buy... so why should you have to relearn each new piece of software?

DocLotus, you mention Peter Norton's argument on software simplicity...I can't resist mentioning the holes in it. If you want a simple phone, there are those $25 ones sold in every Wal-Mart (I'm actually a proud owner of one). But, there are some really top of the line phones that will do so much more if you actually need it like be an answering machine, speakerphone, caller ID, etc. Do you need this? Depends on what you want and need. Yes, anyone can use it and I would say the same about MC. The play and stop button are there and for playing music that's about all you need.

As for the analogy to buying a new car, it always takes me a few months to figure out where everything is. I'm still finding interesting things on my Honda that I've had for a couple of years. Yeah I could still drive it off the lot. I'd again argue the same for MC.

I guess if I'm going to get to a point, here it is: regardless of how much a product wants to be all things to all people, it usually fails at some point in trying to reach this objective. If someone wants a simple player, there are an abundance of options out there. If you want something that does more (a lot more), then MC is a perfect choice. I would hate for JRiver to clutter their product to with wizards and other things just to appeal to the larger masses. In this competitive world, you've got to stick with your bread and butter. IMHO, JRiver has done this well.

Cheers (and sorry for the long-windedness),
GDaddy

[JimH]

GRAYDOG,
Not that it matters a whole lot, but I was a carpenter for most of the first ten years out of school.  It was one of the best jobs I've ever had.  I could always look back at the end of a week and see what I'd done.  A lot of jobs aren't like that.

Thanks for your kind words about Interact.  

Jim

[Richard Berg]

MadCow / Doc -- I stand by my post.  Being feature-rich doesn't imply being unintuitive.  MC10 draws on visual metaphors very common to this genre of software; I have trouble believing a simple user would have trouble with simple tasks.  If you don't agree, it's high time you posted examples.

Complex tasks specific to MC?  Sure.  But there's no avoiding that, and when the rubber meets the road, but documentation is pretty decent.

[hit_ny]

I use MC because it allows me to see my collection using a tags based system, thats it. For media (audio, dont do much video atm) management its tops (for the moment).

If i wanted something simpler i would stick with winamp, its light and works well.

But using MC for me was taking it one step further, it allows more control to the user experience that i was not even aware of nor thought about.

I don't know if MC will ever appeal to a beginner user, might seem overwhelming, like overkill. Having played with Music match a cpl of versions ago, i was less than thrilled about another program like it. Had it not been for a friend repeatedly telling me bout it, would never have tried MC out at all.

It's the next step for people that have graduated beyond winamp. So i suppose maybe nerd might be putting it directly but defnitely for the enthusiaist. That's the niche MC fills IMO.

As far as intuitive interfaces goes, panes defnitely convinced me to try it out. In fact i'm amazed panes were not implemented earlier than 9.1, seems like a fundamental thing to me.

And yes it does have a learning curve, it does a lot of things. People tend to get set in the ways they do things, to relearn what they used to do in MC can be intimidating at times. But then the convenience of being able to do it in one tool is a good incentive.

eg. tagging, i used a 3rd party tagger for yrs, before i let MC try it. Was impressed with how easy it was and let mc do the job from then on.

i've played with burning (CDs not DVD) from time to time, and i think i might use MC over Nero for that too. Now once they implement "full" CUE file support, i wont need winamp+Nero anymore....an exciting thought.

Still use acdc for images, who knows if MC does that well might switch over. I think it will happen sooner than for video.

The board is quite responsive to issues that may arise and if lucky even get requests implemented.

[AoXoMoXoA]

Player for the Nerd
and also for the nerda's and geekettes
 

[DocLotus]

"This discussion seems vaguely reminiscent of others that have been launched previously. I guess I would agree the MC can be more for the high end user - those who want to organize their music and other media, want to sync with their handhelds... well what I dig about MC is the fact that I can do so much with it.

I've encouraged my wife to use WMP because it simply plays what she wants it to play. She can create playlists and rate her songs and that's about the extent of it."


I guess the above says it all.  The simple fact that this discussion has come up many times before in its self says that there is some need for an easier MC for the novice, the beginner, the casual users, the non-geek, non-computer nerd, non-power user, or non-hard core music enthusiast.

I agree that being feature-rich doesn't imply being unintuitive.  I was a programmer for 16 years & the easiest to use programs that I wrote for my customers always had the most complex underlying code.  It was the power of the underlying code that made the programs easy for the customer to use & the power was always there if & when they needed it.  I would usually provide a Basic setup for the new or casual user to help them get up & running without being intimidated by a lot of extra menus, options, complex help screens & etc.  When they were ready to move on to more features they could switch the program over to the next (Intermediate level.  Most of my programs would also have an Advanced mode.  It worked very well; everyone was happy as each user had only what they needed without being too complicated (for them).  Most of the Sales dept used the Basic mode, the Analytical dept used the Intermediate mode, engineering, & management used the Advanced mode so they could see & manipulate everything.

I agree that MC should not be dumbed down, or made into a simple player; in fact, I want more features not less.

But, as new features are added to any program you reach a point that in order to have access to all those features, bells & whistles, you need more menus, more screens, more help, more hand-holding.  In short the program reaches a point where it starts to become just a little more then intimidating to the new, casual user.  The results being that many casual users becomes turned off at all the complexity of the program.

Has MC reached this point, not for you or me as we understand it, but for the new, casual user I think maybe it has.

So how does one keep a powerful program powerful yet make it simple enough for the new, casual user...  By providing two or three setups similar to the Basic, Intermediate, & Advanced modes I talked about earlier.  This way everyone has just the power that they need.  In other words you can have your cake & eat it too.