Topic: Sound problem with APE files (Read 11604 times)

ralphberner · « **on:** May 22, 2004, 07:32:20 am »

Terribly loud hammering or ringing (repeating of a very short sample) for about 2 or three seconds during track change while playing ape-files.
The volume of this ringing is much much louder than the correct playback and there is the risk of speaker damage therefore.

I posted this already, but it was ignored and transfered to somewhere else.

I got this answer:

---------------
Try a test.
Get the standalone version of Monkey's Audio.
Copy two of the APE files to another directory.
Use the convert function of the standalone version of MA to convert the files from the older version to the 3.99 version of APE.
Play the two files and listen at the track change.
I'll bet the problem is gone.
---------------

This cannot be the solution because among various programs i have tried (Winamp, Musicmatch, and even the stupid Microsoft Mediaplayer ...), MusicCenter is the only software wich produces this. In this case it isn't a problem of the ape-Files. It is a bug in the Software.

JimH · « **Reply #1 on:** May 22, 2004, 07:35:38 am »

Are you using 10.0.140?

GHammer · « **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2004, 08:23:49 am »

Quote from: ralphberner on May 22, 2004, 07:32:20 am

Terribly loud hammering or ringing (repeating of a very short sample) for about 2 or three seconds during track change while playing ape-files.
The volume of this ringing is much much louder than the correct playback and there is the risk of speaker damage therefore.

I posted this already, but it was ignored and transfered to somewhere else.

I got this answer:

---------------
Try a test.
Get the standalone version of Monkey's Audio.
Copy two of the APE files to another directory.
Use the convert function of the standalone version of MA to convert the files from the older version to the 3.99 version of APE.
Play the two files and listen at the track change.
I'll bet the problem is gone.
---------------

This cannot be the solution because among various programs i have tried (Winamp, Musicmatch, and even the stupid Microsoft Mediaplayer ...), MusicCenter is the only software wich produces this. In this case it isn't a problem of the ape-Files. It is a bug in the Software.

Tain't a bug in MC. Go check the Monkey's Audio site forums for more info.

And I'd be interested in how you got Windows Media Player to play APE files. I've never had success with it.

Matt · « **Reply #3 on:** May 22, 2004, 12:09:15 pm »

Media Center has the latest and best APE support.

What version and compression level are the APE files you're testing? Is it specific to those?

kaiynne · « **Reply #4 on:** May 22, 2004, 03:58:46 pm »

I also have had this if he is describing what I think he is. Except with mine it is a loud continuos ringing, it only happens after one of those errors that I previously posted about.

GHammer · « **Reply #5 on:** May 23, 2004, 09:34:35 am »

Oh, let me rephrase what I wanted to say.

I had the ringing and distortion problem with APE 3.99 playing APE 3.97 files, especially ones that used HIGH and Extra High compression.

Converting those APE files to 3.99 Update 4 solved the problem.

I have not seen the ringing on new rips using 3.99 however.

BTW- the apl files I has created were fine with the new/converted ape.

Matt · « **Reply #6 on:** May 23, 2004, 10:10:25 am »

I believe there was a bug in the first release of 3.99 that could cause the ringing with APL files. To the best of my knowledge, this has been fixed and the fix is included in the latest Media Center 10.

GHammer · « **Reply #7 on:** May 23, 2004, 12:11:27 pm »

Quote from: Matt on May 23, 2004, 10:10:25 am

I believe there was a bug in the first release of 3.99 that could cause the ringing with APL files. To the best of my knowledge, this has been fixed and the fix is included in the latest Media Center 10.

Sorry, no way for me to test, I have converted all earlier to 3.99 u4.
They certainly work well.

ralphberner · « **Reply #8 on:** May 25, 2004, 12:50:49 pm »

It is frustrating.

See

http://www.monkeysaudio.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=1085507158;start=0#0

Meanwhile i go for a different player software.

Matt · « **Reply #9 on:** May 25, 2004, 12:52:53 pm »

If there is a bug, it's in the standard APE SDK that all players share -- not MC.

However, I'm not aware of any reproducable bug. Giving more details about what your doing and maybe a sample file would help.

You'll find that people are happy to help you here if you'll be patient.

Thanks.

ralphberner · « **Reply #10 on:** May 25, 2004, 11:06:55 pm »

There is a vacuum cleaner that does not clean and the manufacturer tells me that it is not his problem, because one of the parts in the vacuum wich is not working, they are not responsible for.
Who would take such people seriously, especially when there are other vacuum cleaners wich are working.

Let's sumarize the facts:
1.) Mediacenter played the ape files properly a few builds before, but suddenly it cannot, but we are told there is no bug. $:-\$
2.) You are not responsible for the ape technology you just use. My big big question is: Which technology does winamp use and why does it work there. If they use the same technology they are not responsible for, why could they implement it in a way it works? ?

This all seems to me like a set of justifications for whatever reason instead of the concentration towards a solution.

Why should i pay for a player which doesn't play propperly and wastes a lot of my time only when i can get a different player which is even free.

This software is just like the vacuum cleaner wich doesn't clean.

Matt · « **Reply #11 on:** May 25, 2004, 11:26:05 pm »

Quote from: ralphberner on May 25, 2004, 11:06:55 pm

There is a vacuum cleaner that does not clean and the manufacturer tells me that it is not his problem, because one of the parts in the vacuum wich is not working, they are not responsible for.
Who would take such people seriously, especially when there are other vacuum cleaners wich are working.

Let's sumarize the facts:
1.) Mediacenter played the ape files properly a few builds before, but suddenly it cannot, but we are told there is no bug. $:-\$
2.) You are not responsible for the ape technology you just use. My big big question is: Which technology does winamp use and why does it work there. If they use the same technology they are not responsible for, why could they implement it in a way it works? ?

I'm the author of Monkey's Audio. I'm trying to help you. You're not reciprocating.

Again, if you give more details about exactly what you're doing, we may be able to give you more help.

ralphberner · « **Reply #12 on:** May 26, 2004, 06:36:24 am »

OK,
I updated Mediacenter from time to time during the past. At present i have Build 140 installed. I can't remember to have installed anything else during the last weeks, eccept updates of k-lite codec pack. I cannot say with wich build of Media Center this phenomenon appeared.

The Phenomenon is not reproducable in a certain situation. It occurs randomly between any tracks. So at present i don't know wich of my 5000 ape files i actually can sent to you. If i find a reproducable situation, i will let you know immediately.

If you need any other information about system, filelistings or whatever or if i shall try something, deinstallation reinstallation or whatever, let me know.
Let me know where to mail it as well.
I won't be at home from tomorrow morning untill tuesday (just in case you wait for any answer)

Ralph

Matt · « **Reply #13 on:** May 26, 2004, 10:52:00 am »

Quote from: ralphberner on May 26, 2004, 06:36:24 am

The Phenomenon is not reproducable in a certain situation. It occurs randomly between any tracks.

If there was an APE bug, I would expect it to happen everytime on the same files.

When it does happen, what version APE file is it? Is it APE or APL? Does it happen if you try it again?

It's possible that you have a hardware problem. Someone else recently had a similar problem, and a RAM test showed that bad memory was the problem.

huyazo · « **Reply #14 on:** December 28, 2004, 07:26:53 am »

Matt,
I experience a problem coinciding with this old thread, which unfortunately didn't give any answers. I will try to supply you with the info needed. I have some .ape files which when played with 10.0.155 give exactly this hammering noice between the tracks as described by ralph. The ape files are Extra High mode with version 3.99. I can send you files if it would be of any help, just tell me where to send them or post them. My APE plugin is version 2.0.45. Unfortunately they are not totally reproducable, but it is consisten enough that I think you should be able to reproduce it.

GHammer · « **Reply #15 on:** December 28, 2004, 08:57:27 am »

I'm hearing the same thing using the last two or three releases.

Alex B · « **Reply #16 on:** December 28, 2004, 09:58:15 am »

I wonder if this is related to the High or Extra High compression option and inability to start the decompression fast enough when track changing occurs. Perhaps there are other software running and using resources. HD fragmentation, network congestion, virus checking and many other common factors can be involved. Does changing output mode and/or buffering in MC or soundcard driver options make any change?

Low CPU usage is the primary reason why I encode APE files with Normal compression. The size difference is very small.

But if you are saying that it was working with earlier builds (-> 11.0.149) then it can be something else.

I am still using 149 because of other issues. I have never had that problem with 149 or earlier.

GHammer · « **Reply #17 on:** December 28, 2004, 02:57:00 pm »

Quote from: Alex B on December 28, 2004, 09:58:15 am

I wonder if this is related to the High or Extra High compression option and inability to start the decompression fast enough when track changing occurs. Perhaps there are other software running and using resources. HD fragmentation, network congestion, virus checking and many other common factors can be involved. Does changing output mode and/or buffering in MC or soundcard driver options make any change?

No, all my APE files are 3.99 Normal mainly played via APL files.

I have a fairly capable machine here with plenty of resources. And, I have heard this while simply sitting reading a book, nothing else going on with the computer but MC. I have a mix of MP3 and APE and the MP3 do not havethis behavior.

Run into this before and Matt has always been able to sort it within a build or two.

But I'll pay attention to if it is always a file played directly or always an APL.

Matt · « **Reply #18 on:** December 29, 2004, 05:41:43 pm »

As a test, try bumping up the buffer size in Options > Playback > Advanced and see if the problem goes away. Let us know what you find.

GHammer · « **Reply #19 on:** December 30, 2004, 01:26:03 am »

Quote from: Matt on December 29, 2004, 05:41:43 pm

As a test, try bumping up the buffer size in Options > Playback > Advanced and see if the problem goes away. Let us know what you find.

I increased from the default .20 to .50 and in a few hours of playing have not heard the errors. I'll keep listening and see if there are any, but the problem would come more often than that, so looks like the bufer increase helped.

Stupid User · « **Reply #20 on:** December 30, 2004, 10:06:15 pm »

Quote from: Matt on December 29, 2004, 05:41:43 pm

As a test, try bumping up the buffer size in Options > Playback > Advanced and see if the problem goes away. Let us know what you find.

I think you mean Tools > Options > Playback > Audio > Output > Output mode settings > Buffering.

Or maybe that's only with MC 11...

LouVanCrinkle · « **Reply #21 on:** December 30, 2004, 10:35:48 pm »

FWIW I have about 5000 files stored as APE.

The way I found out about MC (using it since 7.x) was because it had good support for APE. I've been using both for years. Never had any problems with APE tool nor plug-in of any kind - and I would be quite vocal if I had and certainly would not have used either if it prevented me from enjoying my music.

Thought I'd take the opportunity to drop in a thanks Matt for producing the first lossless codec worth using. I would not store my music on a computer if I had to diminish the experience to do it!

GHammer · « **Reply #22 on:** December 30, 2004, 10:54:56 pm »

Quote from: LouVanCrinkle on December 30, 2004, 10:35:48 pm

Thought I'd take the opportunity to drop in a thanks Matt for producing the first lossless codec worth using. I would not store my music on a computer if I had to diminish the experience to do it!

Amen!

huyazo · « **Reply #23 on:** January 03, 2005, 07:48:17 am »

Matt, sorry for the late response but I have been away.

I did as you said and increased the buffer to 1 sec, but the problem remains the same, intense noice just before the next track starts.

hit_ny · « **Reply #24 on:** January 03, 2005, 08:54:29 am »

Quote

Thought I'd take the opportunity to drop in a thanks Matt for producing the first lossless codec worth using. I would not store my music on a computer if I had to diminish the experience to do it!

Which genres of muisc do you listen to with APE ?

Matt · « **Reply #25 on:** January 03, 2005, 08:56:51 am »

Quote from: huyazo on January 03, 2005, 07:48:17 am

Matt, sorry for the late response but I have been away.

I did as you said and increased the buffer to 1 sec, but the problem remains the same, intense noice just before the next track starts.

Please try the latest MC 11 to ensure the latest APE decoding SDK is being used. Let us know what you find.

Thanks.

huyazo · « **Reply #26 on:** January 03, 2005, 09:54:10 am »

I upgraded to 162 but the problem remains. The only interesting observation was that the standard track switching is set to cross-fade, which resulted in the noice coming actually after the new track has started. This was surprising for me, as I have always changed this setting to standard with a short gap between tracks.

JimH · « **Reply #27 on:** January 03, 2005, 10:06:37 am »

What sound card are you using? Did you try updating the drivers for it?

GHammer · « **Reply #28 on:** January 03, 2005, 10:32:03 am »

Quote from: hit_ny on January 03, 2005, 08:54:29 am

Which genres of muisc do you listen to with APE ?

Classical to Rap

huyazo · « **Reply #29 on:** January 03, 2005, 11:12:15 am »

I use an optical link from my HTPC to the AV-receiver. I don't have any other sound card than what is on the MB of my Shuttle SB51.

Matt · « **Reply #30 on:** January 03, 2005, 11:33:35 am »

Can you make an APE file available to me to test with? There could be a decoder bug with a certain version / compression level of APE files.

matt @ jriver.com can support large files if you don't mind sending one.

Thanks.

Matt · « **Reply #31 on:** January 03, 2005, 04:13:11 pm »

The files that huyazo had were damaged by a buggy APE tagging program. There was a lot of commotion about this when 3.99 first came out where people were wrongly blaming the codec for their problems.

Anyway, please use caution when tagging APE files with software that doesn't use the reference APE code to do tagging / decoding. (Media Center uses the reference code) You can verify your APE files with the tools at monkeysaudio.com

Thanks.

-Matt

sapnho · « **Reply #32 on:** January 03, 2005, 04:29:07 pm »

Matt, is the APE "verify" function built in Media Center automatically?

huyazo · « **Reply #33 on:** January 03, 2005, 04:53:17 pm »

Matt,
thanks - now at least I know that the files are invalid, and I learned how to verify them.

Is there a way to correct invalid files?

I have tried various alternatives in the Monkey Audio application now, like re-tagging, decompression, compression, but it only returns the message invalid file.

thanks,
Huyazo

Matt · « **Reply #34 on:** January 03, 2005, 04:56:51 pm »

Quote from: huyazo on January 03, 2005, 04:53:17 pm

Is there a way to correct invalid files?

Sorry but once data is lost, only a backup can restore it.

Johnny B · « **Reply #35 on:** January 03, 2005, 10:07:06 pm »

Quote from: Matt on May 25, 2004, 12:52:53 pm

However, I'm not aware of any reproducable bug.

And how about this?
http://www.monkeysaudio.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=1088463368

In short - try this:
1) 3.97APE file -> decompress (in 3.99) -> compress (to "fast" in 3.99) = file 1.ape (3.99 fast)
2) 3.97APE file (the same one) -> convert (to "fast" in 3.99) = file 2.ape (3.99 fast)
Result? Size of the files is different! The problem never occurs when you compress and decompress afterwards. As soon as you convert already compressed APE, you're in trouble.

LouVanCrinkle · « **Reply #36 on:** January 03, 2005, 10:29:38 pm »

Quote from: hit_ny on January 03, 2005, 08:54:29 am

Which genres of muisc do you listen to with APE ?

Well, 89 of them (+ "default"=90) if you believe MC11

Matt · « **Reply #37 on:** January 03, 2005, 11:17:25 pm »

Quote from: Johnny B on January 03, 2005, 10:07:06 pm

In short - try this:
1) 3.97APE file -> decompress (in 3.99) -> compress (to "fast" in 3.99) = file 1.ape (3.99 fast)
2) 3.97APE file (the same one) -> convert (to "fast" in 3.99) = file 2.ape (3.99 fast)
Result? Size of the files is different! The problem never occurs when you compress and decompress afterwards. As soon as you convert already compressed APE, you're in trouble.

Thanks. Look for a fix in the next Monkey's Audio release. Note that this only affects APE -> APE conversion and doesn't disrupt the actual WAV data.

Johnny B · « **Reply #38 on:** January 04, 2005, 09:39:59 am »

Quote from: Matt on January 03, 2005, 11:17:25 pm

Note that this only affects APE -> APE conversion and doesn't disrupt the actual WAV data.

I know. The problem is that I would like to convert my whole APEs (3.97) collection to 3.99 without losing tag information...
When could we expect the fix? This bug is known for a long long time...

Alex B · « **Reply #39 on:** January 04, 2005, 10:33:01 am »

Quote from: Johnny B on January 04, 2005, 09:39:59 am

...I would like to convert my whole APEs (3.97) collection to 3.99 without losing tag information...

It is possible if you convert them with Monkey's Audio (APE > WAVE > APE) outside MC. Just update the file tags from the library after you have replaced the previous APE files and restarted MC. Tools > Library Tools > Update Tags (from library)

Johnny B · « **Reply #40 on:** January 04, 2005, 10:47:00 am »

>Alex B
I know. The problem is that my APEs collection is 150GB big...

Alex B · « **Reply #41 on:** January 04, 2005, 12:03:02 pm »

I just converted an old 3.97 Extra High file directly to 3.99 Normal with MC 11.
I decompressed both files to WAVE and compressed them again to APE 3.99 Normal with MC 11. (no tags, library updating disabled)

comp.exe said this:

Code: [Select]

E:\Rip>comp 397.wav 399.wav
Comparing 397.wav and 399.wav...
Files compare OK

Compare more files (Y/N) ? y
Name of first file to compare: 397.ape
Name of second file to compare: 399.ape
Option:
Comparing 397.ape and 399.ape...
Files compare OK

Compare more files (Y/N) ?

Then I did the same conversions again, but this time MC updated the library and kept all tags intact.
(3.97EH > WAV > 3.99No and 3.97EH > 3.99No). Again the resulting APE files were identical.

I don't see any problem.

Johnny B · « **Reply #42 on:** January 04, 2005, 12:22:45 pm »

Quote from: Alex B on January 04, 2005, 12:03:02 pm

I don't see any problem.

Again... Take a look here http://www.monkeysaudio.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=1088463368
The bug has been discovered 6 months ago. It only affects files that have been tagged. A raw 3.97 APE will not be changed by the CONVERT function, however one with an APE tag attached will get the extra crap at the end of the file.

Alex B · « **Reply #43 on:** January 04, 2005, 12:34:40 pm »

That may be true with Monkey's Audio. I just tested it with MC11 and the files are identical.

These are the tags:

Code: [Select]

Monkey's Audio 3,99 (normal)
Format: 44,1 khz, 16 bit, 2 ch
Length: 6:41
Compression: 33,69% (22,8 MB / 67,6 MB)
Tag: APE Tag 2,00 (695 bytes)
   Track: 6
   Year: 2002
   Genre: Classical
   Peak Level: 0,99997
   Media Jukebox: BPM: 83
   Tool Version: 11.0.149
   Tool Name: Media Center
   Artist: Piotr Anderszewski
   Media Jukebox: Intensity: 1
   Media Jukebox: Encoder: MA397eh
   Album: Mozart Piano Consertos 21 & 24
   Media Jukebox: Band: Sinfonia Varsovia
   Replay Gain (radio): -6,5485600000000002
   Media Jukebox: Conductor: Piotr Anderszewski
   Composer: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756 - 1791)
   Comment: Sinfonia Varsovia orchestra conducted by Anderszewski
   Title: Piano Concerto No. 21 In C Major, K467: III. Allegro Vivace Assai

Johnny B · « **Reply #44 on:** January 04, 2005, 01:18:04 pm »

Quote from: Alex B on January 04, 2005, 12:34:40 pm

That may be true with Monkey's Audio. I just tested it with MC11 and the files are identical.

That may be true. I only tested it with Monkey's Audio itself (APE tag ver 1 are produced). I have not tried MC yet - I only installed it yesterday for the very first time...
Nevertheless it IS a bug and it should be fixed.

GHammer · « **Reply #45 on:** January 04, 2005, 01:46:02 pm »

Quote from: Johnny B on January 04, 2005, 01:18:04 pm

That may be true. I only tested it with Monkey's Audio itself (APE tag ver 1 are produced). I have not tried MC yet - I only installed it yesterday for the very first time...
Nevertheless it IS a bug and it should be fixed.

But perhaps it is not an MC issue. And certainly doesn't have much to do with the original problem.

Alex B · « **Reply #46 on:** January 04, 2005, 02:46:34 pm »

Yes, certainly OT. Perhaps moderator could split this thread.

However, Johnny B, welcome to the "family". I can't think any better tool for mass conversions like that. I guess you will be positively surprised with some other things too.

Just import the files to the MC library and let MC do the dirty job. Try with a few test files first.

If you don't already have a backup of your media files I recommend that you backup them before. All hard drives will eventually crash, sooner or later. You should also backup your new MC library. It takes only a few seconds and your tagging information is saved there in case that something happens. (File > Library > Backup Library…)

Johnny B · « **Reply #47 on:** January 04, 2005, 03:04:53 pm »

Sorry for OT - it happened somehow "naturally"

So far so good - MC seems to be really very good tool (I come from Winamp 5 "family"

) Nevertheless it will take some time (new features, new tweakings, new "problems") so do expect some questions from me soon

Concerning the backup of all media files - I know, I should finally do something about it. "Unfortunately" my APE+MP3+video+picture collection is more than 300GB big...

Anyway thanks for your warm welcome

Johnny B · « **Reply #48 on:** April 11, 2005, 06:06:35 pm »

Quote from: Matt

Thanks. Look for a fix in the next Monkey's Audio release.

So Matt, any news on this? It's been 3 months already...
BTW you do not visit forum at monkeysaudio.com anymore, do you? Your last post there is from 6th of July 2004... $:-\$

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Author Topic: Sound problem with APE files (Read 11604 times)