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[lee269]

Something to add to the various backup threads we seem to have had recently - hoping the audio experts here can advise:

An unpleasant discovery tonight - LPs that I recorded and burned to CD a couple of years ago are now unplayable on the cheap CD media I used to record them on. Some I have ripped to MP3 in MC, and some not - either way, all my careful sonic tweaking is lost. Fortunately, my LPs remain as a backup, so all Ive lost is time. Ill just re-record them. This time though I want to record them for the last time.

Yes, I knew about the warnings and my media was cheap, but Im still pretty shocked at its short life. I wont be as naive again. As an example, I blew the dust off my CD player and compared a store-bought CD with a more recently (<1 yr) burnt audio CD. The burnt CD played, but with so much crackle and hiss it sounded like an Edison wax cylinder recording. This surprised me - Id imagined itd be either perferct reproduction or not play at all.

Id always considered my music CDs my ultimate backup, but apparently I cant rely on that for writeable media. Id still like to archive my music onto burnt audo CDs if possible. I know my experience suggests otherwise, but it still seems somehow more permanent than a USB HD stuck in a drawer somewhere as backup. Can any UK or other members recommend a good quality archival standard brand for CD-Rs?

Ideally Id use APE and a few removable hard disks for backup, but thats always been outside my price range. I guess I might have to rethink that. My backup regime to my CD/DVD writer is weekly for my key data, but for my MC library its just too big. I imagine my data backups might have suffered similarly, but as they are weekly I reckon I will have enough in hand to cope with catastrophes. Anyway, for music/photos its pointless backing up lossy formats if my lossless masters are degrading continuously.

One last thing - a lot of my early LP record-and-rips were done on an older CD writer that I subsequently replaced cos it died. Could the difference between drives cause read problems? I know Ive had that with failing floppy drives in the past  because of head alignment problems (or something).

Grateful for any comments. Thanks.

[JimH]

Maybe they are playable on a different player.  Or readable on a PC CD drive so you can copy them to new media.

Some drives are more sensitive than others.

[pipsqueak]

lee269

its a scary truth but there's nothing that can be done about it. a burned CD will not last as long as a stamped CD. You think thats bad, read the following ridiculous facts.

DVD's have even shorter shelf lifes - due to the fact that the pits are smaller in the first place and so require a much smaller deormation to render them unplayable.

I read (hardcopy only unfortunately) that discs (DVD's in particular) should be stored upright in a sleeve and not in a jewel case. DVD's especially should never be stored in a CD jewel case due to the way the stress is placed on the disk. DVD cases being designed to distribute load better. Additionally if the media is in a jewel case it should never be stored flat as this places the greatest strain across the face of the disk.

Sadly there's no ideal solution. You could (finances permitting) buy hard disks but then you are still at risk from power surges etc. So then what? You could have an additional set of backups stored offsite, but how often would you update them? Its a difficult balance to achieve - i just pray nothing happens to my own collection (again!)

pip

[paulr]

I've got a few handy links that might help.  I also have to say that many experts seem to think that DVDs are a better choice due to the way the media is sandwiched equidistant between each surface of a disc, unlike CDs.

Council on Library and Information Resources and National Institute of Standards and Technology:  http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub121/contents.html

Information Week article: http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20010719S0003

Another Information Weel Article:  http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=15800263

Check out the first link though.  It has a lot of great information on storage and handling as well as types of discs to buy for archiving.

[lee269]

Thanks all - although I havent given up all hope yet, I am definitely rethinking my strategy: APE and lots more hard disks are likely to figure more prominently I feel. It almost seems as if it would be cheaper to buy CDs to replace my LPs, but I am d**ned if Im going to do that.

Jim - Im going to check out some alternative hardware with my fingers crossed.

paulr - thanks, Ill take a look.

Very interesting points from pipsqueak about storage of CDs - I never knew that. I guess that propping up CDs by their holes in a jewel case might cause them to droop at the edges and stress if they are stored flat. I have both storage methods and I might be able to test that.

Amazing how you can go from being fairly confident to blind panic in a moment. But hey, theres plenty worse that could happen. Thanks again.

[pipsqueak]

just to prove i didnt make it all up...

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1590755,00.asp

i'm sure these things are 'unlikely' given 'normal' usage, but its best to at least be aware of the issues...

pip

[paulr]

Good article pip...

Quotes of note:

Also, DVD rot doesn't affect recordable or rewritable DVD media, which use a radically different dye-based technology to store data.

In your opinion, how widespread a problem is DVD rot?

Not very. I've only ever found a handful of true cases, all of which have been older discs. Properly defined, DVD rot and laser disc rot describe the slow oxidation of a disc's aluminum coating caused by moisture, air, or contaminants. Most DVD rot incidents reported today actually have quite different causes, such as delamination, which appears as a dark stain near the hub, or as a series of dark "tree rings."

If DVD rot is so rare, why does the controversy refuse to die?

Laserdisc veterans had been wondering for at least a few years if DVD rot would appear, so when early reports cropped up in the late 1990s, people were primed to jump on them. But the Herald story was what pushed the topic into the mainstream by vastly overstating the severity and scope of the problem. In reality, DVD rot was never very common and probably doesn't occur at all in discs produced today. Unfortunately, every time someone discovers another delaminated disc and then claims "DVD rot" on Usenet, the myth gains momentum all over again.

I think overall, DVDs are a better choice for long term storage *as long as* they are handled and stored properly.  This includes never, ever putting a CD or DVD label on them.

[DJMUK]

Lee269,

A bit late on this as I have been away on holiday.

I am no expert on these matters but have been concerned about the durability of CD-R/RW and/or DVD-R/RW backups ever since I started the process of ripping my own LP's and cassettes.  Eventually I would like to save the space taken up by these and dispose of them but having heard so many horror stories of unrecoverable files from these media types I don't know if I dare risk it!

One place for good advise on this sort of thing, although quite often technically over my head, is the mail list at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advanced_cdr

I can't remember the reasoning now but when I started the process I decided to use DVD-R as my permanent backup.  I use DVD-RW on a temporary basis whilst I am getting the tags rights.

I was using Roxio's latest software to write the disks and had transferred about a hundred albums to DVD-R when I had a problem copying files from a DVD-RW, a new blank created only weeks before, to a DVD-R.  I started to feel concerned and tried copying back to HD all the DVD-R's I had created and found quite a number of uncopyable files.  Panic then set in - what if I had disposed of the originals and the file in MC became corrupted?  Whilst, as had been said, this is not the end of the world it is not what one would like to happen either.

Through the above Yahoo Group I gleaned the following:

1.  CD burning software such as Roxio and Nero and, no doubt, others does not verify that what it has sent to the burner has been successfully written.  Don't know what MC does.  This, of course, make for high writing speeds but what good is a disk written in 10 minutes if you can't get the data back.

2.  Because of the small number of disc manufactures, who obviously sell to the 'Brand Names', as well as the 'unbranded' market you could get a bad batch from a 'Brand Name', selling for many times as much as the same product in 'unbranded' form.

3.  If the burning software does not verify the writing process, as mentioned in 1. above, you will not know until you try to use it that you have a problem as happened to me.

I also found, via this group, a couple of pieces of software from: http://www.infinadyne.com

CD/DVD Diagnostic  - "The #1 data recovery software! Recovers lost data, photos, files, music and more from CDs and DVDs. Now supports DVD recorder discs! More tools, more features and more capable than the competition."

AccuBurn–R - "Accurately burns CD data. Guaranteed! No more data loss, user errors, or ruined discs!  NOW SUPPORTS DVD's!"

The first managed, to my relief, to recover all but two of the files that Windows could not copy.  I have since used the second to do all my burning, as it does verify after it writes and reports any problems it finds with the media.

As I have said I am no expert but I now feel a bit more confident in my DVD backups.  However, as nothing is perfect I am also making another backup to an external HD.

As you know the use of external HD’s for backup is popular with the members here and these can, and do, of course, fail.  If you get a total failure at least you can replace it and recopy the files from the HD being used by MC.  More of a concern is slow unseen problems.  As we, obviously, play our music at random intervals it could be some time before we notice a problem with the MC copy of a track and go to our HD backup to find that is also is bad.

In considering this I found a program called “SpinRite” from http://www.grc.com.  This basically does non-destructive testing, at various levels, of the HD surface to warn of any actual or imminent problems and may be of interest for general use as well as specifically for MC.  By the way they are also renown for their free “Sheilds Up!” testing of your internet security.

I hope this information/experiences may be of some use.

David

[lee269]

David

Thanks for this - I understand the feeling of panic. My PC is not even recognising discs as neing inerted, so I think I am sunk, but Ill check out your suggestions.